Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VII

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by bmyers
And you think the difference between this and velocity, as it applies to relativity, is what, exactly?

Like I said -- it's obvious that you don't know the difference between general and special relativity. Educate yourself.

Whoops. Wrong link. There you go.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by bmyers
Some of us are, at least. It remains unclear exactly what you're discussing, but it becomes increasingly clear that you have no idea what "science" actually is in the first place.

This coming from a guy who doesn't know about general relativity...

 

[bmyers]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Like I said -- it's obvious that you don't know the difference between general and special relativity. Educate yourself.

Your inability to answer the question posed is noted.

 

[bmyers]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
This coming from a guy who doesn't know about general relativity...

At least in your opinion. I hope you'll understand why your opinion on the scientific background of others isn't held in particularly high regard here.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by bmyers
At least in your opinion. I hope you'll understand why your opinion on the scientific background of others isn't held in particularly high regard here.

Hey, at least I'm not denying gravitational time dilation.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by bmyers
Your inability to answer the question posed is noted.

Check again. There's a link for you to read. If you can understand it...

 

[ex_fundy]

SOTK4ever,

"Theology" is the study of the nature of god and religious truth, it is not in any sense limited to the Christian faith or your personal version of who god is.

You should go to Ex-Christians.com or some of the atheists sites and you'd see a bunch of "christians" over there pushing their perspective as well. Although, most of the "christians" visiting there seem to prefer drive-bys (1 or 2 mean-spirited posts, zero discussion, and then they are gone).

Fundamentalism (within any religous belief system) has effects on society outside of the lives of the individuals that hold those beliefs. I have witnessed many damaged lives from the excesses associated with Christian fundamentalism. I consider it a duty to expose the fallacies I've learned during my experience in fundamentalism, to help others.

To publically debate the merits of any belief system is an important process in any free society.

 

[Section8]

Where in the bible is it said that Christians are called to legislate morality upon the non-believer?

 

[Heino]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Altitude in a gravity well,

No. The scientific references I was able to find only referenced GRAVITY. It is true, however, that a mountain creates a gravity well, but not in terms of height on the mountain -- just anything that is in close proximity to it's mass in relation to the mass of the earth.

and no, I won't provide a link. Go to the library, or find one yourself.

How rude.

Altitude has an effect on gravity. You've already blown it, Heino. Backpedalling isn't going to help you.

Are you always so rude to guests?

 

[bmyers]

Originally posted by Tye Porter
Where does it read that we should sit back and let the Godless legislate morality, as they are doing now?

It would be very helpful if you'd give an example of just how morality is being legislated (by "the Godless" or anyone else), or for that matter why it should be legislated in the first place.

 

[flash]

Originally posted by SOTK4ever
I continue to find it amusing that atheists, ex-fundamentalists, or whatever else you call yourselves continue to hang out at a theology based forum website and have the audacity to claim we are brainwashers shoving our beliefs down others' throats.

I find your motivation in hanging out in here suspect. I don't know about any other Christian or theist here, but I will never be convinced by anything any of you have to say because of this, and more importantly because of my faith. I would never waste my time or yours going to an atheist specific web site to harrass the people socializing and engaging in specific belief related discussion. I would, however, go there if I was interested to learn about what you believe in and thought I
could maintain openmindedness. But I am not in the least bit interested which is why I choose to hang out in a theist online community.

I realize that I am new to TOL, but I have spent a great deal of time reading the arguments between theists and atheists, amongst other topics as well, and have concluded that you atheists go around and around, spouting the same stuff over and over again. For what? It can't be an honest attempt to understand the theist or be openminded to his beliefs as I have seen no evidence of this whatsoever. What is it? Hmmm...how about the enjoyment of ticking off theists??

If you are all so interested in discussing evolution, blah, blah, blah.....discuss it amongst yourselves. If I want to deepen and enlarge my knowledge of the faith I have in Christ, I talk, and even sometimes argue, with fellow believers. Doesn't that seem logical?

With all of this being said, I do want to emphasize that if any of you are legitimately, honestly interested in what a theist believes and have questions, by all means, fire away! I'd be more than happy to talk with any of you about my beliefs.

SOTK4ever,

Well, this is the battle part of the TOL forums. I think people are supposed to come here to debate and have their viewpoints challenged. Personally, if I were a Theist, I would go to the forums of unbelievers and have my beliefs challenged. You may convert to atheism bannana: ), or your beliefs in Thiesm may become stronger and more easilly explained to unbelievers.

There are other forums here at TOL designed mostly for believers. I don't visit those forums (I don't belong there), and I hope other believers also have the couresty to stay away. Unfortunately, I am sure a few sneak in to stir things up.

Anywhoo, as an unbeliever, I am here to have my beliefs challenged, and perhaps changed. I have found the general population of this board to be very friendly and receptive.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Heino
No. The scientific references I was able to find only referenced GRAVITY.

Gravitational strength diminishes with altitude. Didn't you learn anything in science class?

It is true, however, that a mountain creates a gravity well, but not in terms of height on the mountain -- just anything that is in close proximity to it's mass in relation to the mass of the earth.

The gravity well I'm referring to is that of the Earth. The mountain simply provides the altitude.

Are you always so rude to guests?

Only the ignorant ones.

 

[ex_fundy]

Originally posted by Tye Porter Where does it read that we should sit back and let the Godless legislate morality, as they are doing now?

Romans 13. You are commanded to obey those in government, because God has placed them there. If you happen to be living in Iraq and Saddam were still in charge it would still apply to you.

 

[Heino]

Gravity's affects on time

Gravity's affects on time

I believe that Jack is trying to use the effects of gravitation on time as a clever ploy to suggest that time runs at wildly different speeds in different places in the universe. Though it is true that massive objects can bend light and time, just how much has actually been measured, which does not support what Jack might be suggesting.

The difference in Colorado in the rockies compared to Greenwich England was about 5 millionths of a second. That is an immensely SMALL amount. In fact, the differences in time-flow that has been measured, on earth, and off-earth, is measured in very small amounts.

The interesting point is that the slowing down of light around massive objects is confined to the gravity field of the object. When light from a star travels in space, it goes at the speed of light. Near a star or black hole, it slows, but only by a very tiny amount, measured in millionths to thousandths of a second. After the light is outside of the influence of massive objects, it's speed goes back to normal light speed.

http://www.mrelativity.net/TimeEnergyIG/TimeEnergyIG3.htm

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by ex_fundy
Romans 13. You are commanded to obey those in government, because God has placed them there.

In America, Christians are allowed to legislate as much as anybody else. The Bible nowhere commands us not to take a hand in that.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Re: Gravity's affects on time

Re: Gravity's affects on time

Originally posted by Heino
I believe that Jack is trying to use the effects of gravitation on time as a clever ploy to suggest that time runs at wildly different speeds in different places in the universe.

If the universe has a gravitational center, then time will run at wildly different speeds in different parts of the universe. The further out from the center, the faster it will run.

 

[bmyers]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Gravitational strength diminishes with altitude. Didn't you learn anything in science class?

Once again, Jack scrambles madly trying to salvage his original mis-statement. Gravtitational strength diminishes with the distance from the center of mass of the body in question, but that's hardly the same thing as "diminishes with altitude". (It would be the same if the body in question were of uniform radius and density, or at least density that varied solely with radius, but that's certainly not the case here.)

But since Jack has already shown himself to be such a pedant when it comes to dictionary definitions, we have to note that he has consistently used the term "altitude" here, as opposed to "elevation" or "height above ground." "Altitude" is properly used to refer only to specific measurement - the height of a given object or location above a specified reference, in this case that reference almost always being mean sea level.

To see how this relates to Jack's very questionable original assertion - that time varies "with altitude" - consider the problem of an airliner flying at a constant altitude, say 31,000 feet MSL. Per Jack's original assertion, we would expect the passage of time aboard this airliner, assuming that it maintains a constant velocity, to remain steady, since its ALTITUDE is unvarying. However, if we are to believe Einstein, time varies with the position in a gravity well (due to the curvature of space/time by the origin of that well, typically a mass - and since Jack's apparently unable to connect these particular dots, this effect on time, under general relatively, is directly analogous to special relativity's case of time variations caused by relative velocity in a supposedly "flat" space, per special relativity.) Now, consider the following situations:

- The airliner, maintaining its constant altitude and velocity, flies over a mountain (say, Mt. Everest - we'll clear it with a bit to spare), or

- The airliner flies over an area of greater density (a mass concentration) within the Earth - again, while maintaining constant altitude.

I'm rather surprised, though, that Jack himself drags relativity into this, since the Einstein theories - which Jack apparently does not question - cause some very significant problems for the creationist/young Universe notions.

 

[bmyers]

Re: Re: Gravity's affects on time

Re: Re: Gravity's affects on time

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
If the universe has a gravitational center, then time will run at wildly different speeds in different parts of the universe. The further out from the center, the faster it will run.

"Wildly different speeds", Jack? Perhaps you could quantify that. How would such a center be located, and once you've located it, please describe for us how much the passage of time would differ between, say, HERE (the general vicinity of Earth) and, oh, a million light-years away in the direction of the Andromeda galaxy...

 

[Heino]

Re: Re: Gravity's affects on time

Re: Re: Gravity's affects on time

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
If the universe has a gravitational center, then time will run at wildly different speeds in different parts of the universe. The further out from the center, the faster it will run.

Well, that's easily settled, then. I do not beleive that a "gravitational center" has been detected for the universe. Recent observations with the Hubble, with COBE, and other instruments suggest very strongly that the universe is going to keep expanding.

Can you tell me how "wildly different" you mean? As I said earlier, the time dilation of gravity fields is very small. It is measured in millionths and thousandths of a second. The whole galaxy's mass may only result in a dilation of a second or two at most. Of course, it would help greatly if you could provide a link to a source that has the information that you drew your conclusions from. Do you wish to foster understanding between us?

 

[Heino]

Re: Re: Re: Gravity's affects on time

Re: Re: Re: Gravity's affects on time

Originally posted by bmyers
"Wildly different speeds", Jack? Perhaps you could quantify that. How would such a center be located, and once you've located it, please describe for us how much the passage of time would differ between, say, HERE (the general vicinity of Earth) and, oh, a million light-years away in the direction of the Andromeda galaxy...

I, too, am very skeptical of this. Being a mathematics nerd, I tend to want to know about the numbers and algorythms used to determine such things, so as to understand them. For example, how do we determine the weight of the universe? How do we determine the gravitational center? Most importantly, how great is the gravity at the center of the universe?

Nobody can make the claim that Jack has until those things can be answered. Else, it is speculation.