The New Testament usage of this word is relevant, the Greek philosophical usage is irrelevant.
Saying it doesn't make it so, Dartman.
Language is language. The meaning of a word does not change dramatically because a philosopher used it as apposed to a banker or a black smith. Words can be used in special ways by various people but that special use would have to be explained somehow otherwise the normal meaning of the word would be naturally assumed by the reader.
Further, the bible is philosophy! Not only that, but John was very clearly intentionally using Greek philosophical terms! Terms such as Logos, for example! John's audience was clearly intended to be the Hellenized people of his day which would have had an naturally intuitive understanding of a common term such as 'kosmos'.
Given that the trinitarian doctrine is totally reliant on Greek philosophy and theology, I'm not surprised that you lean on that understanding.
You are so completely dishonest. You do as much harm to your position as anything I say, so keep it up.
The fact that something has support within Greek philosophy does not, by itself, present evidence that it is invalid. I, however, have not appealed to Greek philosophy but only to biblical sources, sources which are written in the Greek language, by the way, the meaning and usage of which could not escape being both an influence of, and being influenced by Greek philosophy. So, if you want to attack Trinitarianism on the basis of Greek philosophy, your burden would be to show how the doctrine is predicated on, not only some specific Greek philosophical point but one that is in contradiction to scripture. A feat that you would not even attempt to accomplish, even if you knew enough about either the bible or Greek philosophy to be qualified to do so, which you aren't.
The NT usage is discussing the civilization of man, man's order, NOT the universe.
So says you, which no one here cares anything about.
Here are some examples:
John 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Surely you don't believe the planet and the wildlife on the planet rejoiced!!
Alright, so first of all, let's convert this into modern English by using a version of the bible that isn't four centuries old and let's add a view verses so as to get the context of what is being said...
John 16:19 Now Jesus knew that they desired to ask Him, and He said to them, “Are you inquiring among yourselves about what I said, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’? 20 Most assuredly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; and you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy. 21 A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. 22 Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.
Yes, I absolutely believe that Jesus was talking about the whole planet and not just of that current time but of the whole past up to that time and the whole future as well. People rejoice to this day that Jesus was willing to "leave" so that we wouldn't have to. Indeed, if people failed to do so, the very rocks would do so in our stead.
Luke 19:40 But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.”
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Surely you don't believe Jesus overcame the planet and the wildlife on the planet, or the solar system.
Once again, in modern English and with a bit more context...
John 16:31 Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe? 32 Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. 33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you [
f]will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
And, yes, I believe that this world (i.e. the universe - both the physically created order as well as the spiritual forces that are at play) is fallen and broken in ways that we will likely never fully understand and that Jesus overcame all of it - all of it.
John 17:6-9 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
As I said, the NT usage of COSMOS is discussing the civilization of man, NOT the planet, animals, sun moon and stars.
I really dislike using the Old King James. It is very nearly unreadable.
And why, I WONDER, did you stop at verse 9?
John 17:6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. (i.e. not "created Me"
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
I don't even want to hear how you configure the hoops your mind jumps through to make it through that passage. I don't care.
Also, I see no reason to think that Jesus wasn't also using the term "kosmos" here to mean the entire world. There is after all, only one Earth and Jesus was sent to that Earth to save all of it.
Further, even if we were to grant, for the sake of argument, that there are uses of the term "kosmos" which do not refer to the entirety of creation, which is true, it wouldn't successfully establish your point because there are several examples of when the term very definitely is used to mean the entire created order, or, at the very least, could be understood in that manner, which would leave you in a position where you would have to prove that your doctrinal interpretation was superior to someone else's, which you are neither willing nor qualified to even attempt.
It is, for example, laughably ridiculous that you would use three passages from adjacent chapters of one book of the bible in an attempt to establish the "biblical usage" of a term over the normal meaning of that term (i.e. not some special "philosophical" meaning) that everyone in the society at the time would have had an intuitive understanding of and which is used in the bible 187 times in 19 different books of the New Testament.
