Battle Royale XIV discussion thread

Clete

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The definition of LOGOS includes "reason".
No, it is "reason". The word does have a sphere of meaning that is nuanced by the context in which it is used but its meaning is all but identical to the English word "reason".

God's "reason" is expressed by His words.
Much more than that! That, in fact, is such a shallow thing to say that it's very nearly meaningless. Fools use words. Idiots use words. Liars use words.

The Greek word "Logos" very simply cannot be rightly translated into the English word "Word". It is flatly meaningless. There isn't any context in which "Word" is used that it conveys any meaning similar to "Logos". The ONLY reason anyone has the two words associated with each other is specifically and only because of a translation error in the King James Bible and even there, its use must be explained to the uninitiated before it makes any sense to the reader, which is how we know its a translation error. (i.e. No one had to explain to the Greeks what John was refering to when he uses the word "Logos".)

Logos is where we get the suffix "ology". It means "the understanding of" or "the logic of". So, for example, the word "biology" is BIO (life) OLOGY (logic), the logic of life or the understanding of life and thus, things that pertain to biology are called "biological". The English word "Logic" is not, however, a superior translation of "logos" than is "reason" because, in English, "logic" refers primarily to the rules of sound reason. "Logic" is, however, very often used interchangeably with the word "reason" in English and, in many contexts, the two words are synonymous. That, along with the obvious phonetic similarities between the words, "Logic" would work as a good translation of "Logos". Far far better than "Word"!

Thus...

John 1:1 In the beginning was Logic, and Logic was with God, and Logic was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​
14 And Logic became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​

God's power is conveyed by His words. YHVH God IS "the Creator of everything", and Jesus is the Creators "holy servant":
Acts 4:24-31 And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, "O Lord, it is Thou who didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Thy servant, didst say,

'Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples devise futile things? 26'The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord, and against His Christ.'

27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur. 29 "And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Thy bond-servants may speak Thy word with all confidence, 30 while Thou dost extend Thy hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus. "
Jesus was indeed The Father's servant, especially while in the flesh. Jesus was also the Creator, through whom and by whom all things were made that were made. (John 1 :3)

Jesus also explicitly and repeatedly states that he is "the Alpha and Omega the Beginning and the End,” Here's probably the only passage in the whole book of Revelation that you haven't ripped out of your bible...

Revelation 1:4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:​
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.​
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.​
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.​
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”​
(Revelation 1:8 - see also Rev. 1:11. 21:6 & 22:13)​

That passage is undeniably talking about God and John, starting with the very next verse, puts the words "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," (verse 11) into the mouth of He who "lives, and was dead, and is alive forevermore. Amen. And has the keys of Hades and of Death." (verse 18).
Here are the actual verses....

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,”...​
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.​

If you deny that this passage is speaking of Jesus, then you've flatly denied the faith altogether and are not a Christian at all. That's how blatantly obvious this passage is.

Then in Revelation 22...
Revelation 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”​
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.​
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”​
OOPS! That pesky bible did it too you again! Jesus is either God or the bible is false.
Let's all sit back and watch how Dartman figures out a way to explain basically the whole book of Revelation out of existence! #baited breath

Clete
 
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Clete

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I think you are referencing my statement:
"That Jesus and the other Jews worship the TRUE God."

And, here is the Scripture that states this fact:
John 4:21-22 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: WE know what WE worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

However, you also included this statement in the quote of my post: "That Jesus is, and always will be SUBJECT to his God."

So, here are the Scriptures that state this fact:
1 Cor 15:24-28 then comes the end, when he delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign until He has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to him. 28 And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.
You miss the point. Probably my fault.

Jesus, the Man, is subject to the Father. No one denies that. The fact that the Logos, the second person of the Trinity, became a man (and remains a man to this day, by the way) isn't affected by the fact that Jesus submitted Himself to the Father. In fact, it is only natural that He would do so...

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.​
None of this could make any sense at all if Jesus was not God in the flesh, while still being distinct from the Father, which the bible explicitly teaches...

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​
Wow! I mean, if not for the bible, your doctrine might have a leg to stand on!
 

Dartman

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You miss the point. Probably my fault.

Jesus, the Man, is subject to the Father. No one denies that. The fact that the Logos, the second person of the Trinity, became a man (and remains a man to this day, by the way) isn't affected by the fact that Jesus submitted Himself to the Father. In fact, it is only natural that He would do so...
Jesus came into literal existence, even for YHVH God, in Bethlehem. Jesus was FORETOLD in MANY prophecies "from of old, from everlasting".


Mic 5:2 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto ME that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.

YHVH God is speaking in this verse, and states that Jesus would come forth unto HIM in Bethlehem.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.​
None of this could make any sense at all if Jesus was not God in the flesh, while still being distinct from the Father, which the bible explicitly teaches...
Hogwash.
Jesus became in his God's form when his God anointed Jesus with God's spirit. Jesus did NOT try to rob equality with God, Jesus instead humbled himself as a servant:

Luke 4:18-21 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down: and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, Today hath this scripture been fulfilled in your ears.

Luke 22:25-27 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles have lordship over them; and they that have authority over them are called Benefactors. 26 But ye (shall) not (be) so: but he that is the greater among you, let him become as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. 27 For which is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am in the midst of you as he that serveth.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.

Phil 2:5-8 is discussing Christ's attitude in his ministry, when he had grown up to be a man, was anointed by his God, with his God's power and authority.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​
God's words have been with Him, define Him, and are His tools for conveying His identity, His spirit and His power. Those words were fulfilled as a flesh and blood baby boy in Bethlehem.
 

JudgeRightly

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Jesus came into literal existence, even for YHVH God, in Bethlehem.

Nope.

Jesus' words:

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. - John 17:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John17:5&version=NKJV

How could Jesus have shared glory (which God doesn't do with any other being, by the way, Isaiah 42:8) with God if He "came into literal existence, even for YHVH God, in Bethlehem"?

Or are you calling Isaiah, John, and God liars?

Jesus was FORETOLD in MANY prophecies

Yes, he was.

"from of old, from everlasting".

No. "From everlasting" means "from eternity."

Prophecies haven't always existed, thus they are not "from eternity."


Saying it doesn't make it so.

Jesus became in his God's form when his God anointed Jesus with God's spirit. Jesus did NOT try to rob equality with God,

Jesus WAS equal with God, but humbled himself. Stop twisting scripture to fit your beliefs.

Jesus instead humbled himself as a servant:

No one said otherwise.
 

Clete

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Jesus came into literal existence, even for YHVH God, in Bethlehem. Jesus was FORETOLD in MANY prophecies "from of old, from everlasting".


Mic 5:2 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto ME that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.

YHVH God is speaking in this verse, and states that Jesus would come forth unto HIM in Bethlehem.


Hogwash.
Jesus became in his God's form when his God anointed Jesus with God's spirit. Jesus did NOT try to rob equality with God, Jesus instead humbled himself as a servant:

Luke 4:18-21 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down: and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, Today hath this scripture been fulfilled in your ears.

Luke 22:25-27 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles have lordship over them; and they that have authority over them are called Benefactors. 26 But ye (shall) not (be) so: but he that is the greater among you, let him become as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. 27 For which is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am in the midst of you as he that serveth.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.

Phil 2:5-8 is discussing Christ's attitude in his ministry, when he had grown up to be a man, was anointed by his God, with his God's power and authority.


God's words have been with Him, define Him, and are His tools for conveying His identity, His spirit and His power. Those words were fulfilled as a flesh and blood baby boy in Bethlehem.
Just one more in the seemingly endless line of worthless trolls that don't know how to have a rational discussion, who aren't interested in actual debate, and couldn't respond to a substantive argument against their doctrine if their life depended on it (which it does).

How completely boring.
 

Clete

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Nope.

Jesus' words:

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. - John 17:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John17:5&version=NKJV
Nice! I had forgotten about that verse! John's writings are just amazing on this topic.

"The glory I had with you before the world was". "pro ho kosmos einai". Literally, "Before the universe existed".

I wonder which Dartman will choose? Will he move along and pretend that you didn't quote that verse or will he figure out a way to say its yet another verse that shouldn't be in the bible? Maybe he completely rejects John as a legitimate biblical author.

 
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Dartman

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Nope.

Jesus' words:

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. - John 17:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John17:5&version=NKJV

How could Jesus have shared glory (which God doesn't do with any other being, by the way, Isaiah 42:8) with God if He "came into literal existence, even for YHVH God, in Bethlehem"?
The same way ALL the righteous shared glory with our Creator as He PLANNED His Creation:

Rom 8:28-30 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, (even) to them that are called according to (his) purpose. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained (to be) conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And, you are incorrect regarding shared glory:

John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we (are) one;


Or are you calling Isaiah, John, and God liars?
Of course not. I am saying the trinitarians are misreading those texts, and have been for about 17 centuries.
 

Clete

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The same way ALL the righteous shared glory with our Creator as He PLANNED His Creation:

Rom 8:28-30 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, (even) to them that are called according to (his) purpose. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained (to be) conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And, you are incorrect regarding shared glory:

John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we (are) one;



Of course not. I am saying the trinitarians are misreading those texts, and have been for about 17 centuries.
You can know that a man is pushing a cult when his doctrine makes it impossible to simply read something and understand what it says. When everything EVERYTHING become some sort of figure of speech that cannot be understood until AFTER your doctrine is "corrected", you know you've heard the approaching leper's bell of the religious con artist.

Run! Once he gets you to forfeit your mind to him, it won't be long before he asks for the rest of you.

Trust me, God wrote a book that you can actually read and understand for yourself. Simply read it, take it to mean what it seems to mean and you'll be just fine. Teachers are valuable for pulling out details and understanding more deeply but you do not need anything but the scripture itself to understand who Jesus is. God is an excellent Author and has written a great book. Just read it. It's that simple.
 

Dartman

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You can know that a man is pushing a cult when his doctrine makes it impossible to simply read something and understand what it says. When everything EVERYTHING become some sort of figure of speech that cannot be understood until AFTER your doctrine is "corrected", you know you've heard the approaching leper's bell of the religious con artist.

Run! Once he gets you to forfeit your mind to him, it won't be long before he asks for the rest of you.

Trust me, God wrote a book that you can actually read and understand for yourself. Simply read it, take it to mean what it seems to mean and you'll be just fine. Teachers are valuable for pulling out details and understanding more deeply but you do not need anything but the scripture itself to understand who Jesus is. God is an excellent Author and has written a great book. Just read it. It's that simple.
This would be a wonderful discourse ..... if you were looking in a mirror when you said it.

The Scriptures clearly, and repeatedly state that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, was promised prophetically to Eve (Gen 3:15), to Abraham (Gal 3:16) , to Moses and all of Israel (Deut 18:15-19, Acts 3:19-24).
The Scriptures clearly and repeatedly state that Jesus worships the God of the Jews (John 4:22, John 20:17, Rev 3:12)
The Scriptures clearly and repeatedly state that Jesus is SUBORDINATE to his God (John 14:28, John 20:17, 1 Cor 15:24-28, 1 Tim 2:5, 1 Cor 11:3)
The Scriptures clearly and repeatedly state that YHVH God ALONE is God, is the Creator of heaven and the earth, and all of the creatures in it ... including Jesus.

The Scriptures NEVER state that Jesus is equal with his God.
The Scriptures NEVER state the impossible theory that Jesus is "100 percent God, and 100 percent Man". That theory is trinitarian fiction.
 

Clete

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This would be a wonderful discourse ..... if you were looking in a mirror when you said it.

The Scriptures clearly, and repeatedly state that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, was promised prophetically to Eve (Gen 3:15), to Abraham (Gal 3:16) , to Moses and all of Israel (Deut 18:15-19, Acts 3:19-24).
Which no one denies and thus does not argue your case.

The Scriptures clearly and repeatedly state that Jesus worships the God of the Jews (John 4:22, John 20:17, Rev 3:12)
Which no one denies and thus does not argue your case.

The Scriptures clearly and repeatedly state that Jesus is SUBORDINATE to his God (John 14:28, John 20:17, 1 Cor 15:24-28, 1 Tim 2:5, 1 Cor 11:3)
Which no one denies and thus does not argue your case.

The Scriptures clearly and repeatedly state that YHVH God ALONE is God, is the Creator of heaven and the earth, and all of the creatures in it
Which no one denies and thus does not argue your case.

... including Jesus.
Including this was a lie - an intentional lie - on your part because the bible, as I have no repeatedly quoted and that you simply ignore, states that Jesus is the Creator in the flesh.

The Scriptures NEVER state that Jesus is equal with his God.
Yes it does. I've already quoted that verse and you called it "hogwash".

The Scriptures NEVER state the impossible theory that Jesus is "100 percent God, and 100 percent Man". That theory is trinitarian fiction.
Saying it doesn't make it so, Dartman, nor is it necessary for there to be the exact quote "100 percent God, and 100 percent Man" for the teaching to be present, as I have already established without substantive response from you. There is simply nothing mutually exclusive about the concepts of "being human" and "being God". Indeed, if this were not so, there would have been no need for Jesus to have been born of a virgin.
 

Right Divider

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Nice! I had forgotten about that verse! John's writings are just amazing on this topic.

"The glory I had with you before the world was". "pro ho kosmos einai". Literally, "Before the universe existed".

I wonder which Dartman will choose? Will he move along and pretend that you didn't quote that verse or will he figure out a way to say its yet another verse that shouldn't be in the bible? Maybe he completely rejects John as a legitimate biblical author.
I use that verse a lot to show Jesus' eternal nature (i.e., His deity).
 

Dartman

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Which no one denies and thus does not argue your case.
In the first place, the fact that Jesus worships the God of the Jews completely contradicts the trinitarian teaching that Jesus and God are co-equal.
In the second place, the point is the Scriptures make clear and simple statements regarding Jesus and YHVH God that establish them as two distinct beings, with Jesus being subordinate to his God, both during his mortal life, and currently, as well as through all eternity.
By stark contrast, the notions that are unique to the trinity are NEVER stated, explained or described.
Including this was a lie - an intentional lie - on your part because the bible, as I have no repeatedly quoted and that you simply ignore, states that Jesus is the Creator in the flesh.
Jesus is a created being;

Col 1:12-15 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every CREATURE (a created thing).

Jesus is the creator of the COSMOS ... this civilization. The world/civilization in which we live, and the New Testament was written. This is stated MANY times in the New Testament.

Jesus is NOT the creator of the universe, his God is:

Acts 4:24-30 And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, "O Lord, it is Thou who didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Thy servant, didst say,

'Why did the Gentiles rage,And the peoples devise futile things? 26'The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord, and against His Christ.'

27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur. 29 "And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Thy bond-servants may speak Thy word with all confidence, 30 while Thou dost extend Thy hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus. "

God created "heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them,"
Jesus was anointed BY the Creator of the universe, and is the "holy servant" of the Creator of the universe.
 

Idolater

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Matthew 1
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
 

Idolater

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Look what the Psalmist says about Dartman.

Psalm 102
I said, O DARTMAN, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.

25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.


And how Dartman reads Paul.

Philippians 3
Let this mind be in you, which IS also in ME!:

6 Who (ME!), being in the form of God (ME!), THINK it not robbery to be equal with God!!!


Remember, this is Dartman's version of John 10:30 (with his commentary).

John 10:30 "I and My Father are One" .... EXACTLY like ALL believers are one with God!!!
@Dartman won't touch this post.
 

Dartman

Active member
Matthew 1
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Yep, this name proves God is NOT against us.
Isa 8:10 Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.
Jesus stated about 20 times that his God "is in heaven" ... NOT was standing there speaking to them;

Matt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Matt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good ...
Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matt 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Etc.
 

Dartman

Active member
@Dartman won't touch this post.
Psa 102 is about YHVH God, NOT Jesus;
Ps 102:1 Hear my prayer, O Jehovah, and let my cry come unto thee.
Ps 102:12 But thou, O Jehovah, wilt abide for ever; and thy memorial (name) unto all generations.
Ps 102:16 For Jehovah hath built up Zion; He hath appeared in his glory.

Part of this chapter is quoted in Heb 1:10-12, to explain about "God, even THY GOD" in verse 9.
The creator of the universe is Christ's God, and has exalted Jesus above the angels.
 

Idolater

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Psa 102 is about YHVH God, NOT Jesus;
Hebrews 1
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

What a mess.
 

Clete

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In the first place, the fact that Jesus worships the God of the Jews completely contradicts the trinitarian teaching that Jesus and God are co-equal.
Only in your mind.

Do you understand what the following sentence means?....

SAYING IT DOESN'T MAKE IT SO!
In the second place, the point is the Scriptures make clear and simple statements regarding Jesus and YHVH God that establish them as two distinct beings, with Jesus being subordinate to his God, both during his mortal life, and currently, as well as through all eternity.
No, that's your doctrine, not the scripture.

By stark contrast, the notions that are unique to the trinity are NEVER stated, explained or described.
Liar. I and others here have already established that in fact it does say so more than once and in more than one way. Pretending like you've not been refuted does not count as a rejoinder.

Jesus is a created being;
Double talk.
The Person of the Godhead that John referred to as Logos has always existed and created everything that has been created as the bible explicitly states and which I have repeatedly quoted without substantive response from you. Jesus the human being, that is the human body that the Logos embodied, was conceived in Mary's womb and did not exist prior to that conception. The glorified human body that Logos currently embodies and that He will embody forever is a modified version of His human body which didn't exist in its current form until after the resurrection.

Jesus is the creator of the COSMOS ... this civilization. The world/civilization in which we live, and the New Testament was written. This is stated MANY times in the New Testament.
You're an idiot!

You don't get to just make up things as you go along in order to make them fit your doctrine. That isn't how the truth works.

The Greek word kosmos refers to the entire created order unless the context makes it clear that something else is being said. There is a manner of speaking where kosmos could refer to the ornamentation of something someone has built, like a house or building but, again, the context would make that clear and it would then be translated "adornment" or "decoration" but otherwise the word refers to all that has been created. That's what the word means, that's what the context supports and the only reason anyone would think otherwise is if they had a doctrine that contradicted it.
Jesus is NOT the creator of the universe, his God is:
The bible says that the same God that created the universe is the One who became flesh and dwelt among us.

God created "heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them,"
True!

Jesus was anointed BY the Creator of the universe, and is the "holy servant" of the Creator of the universe.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​
John 1:14 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​

And notice the very next verse!

John 1:15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”

Jesus was both conceived and born six months AFTER John the Baptist. Dartman! The only sense in which Jesus was before John the Baptist was the fact that He was God Himself!

Clete
 

Dartman

Active member
Hebrews 1
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

What a mess.
Yes, verse 10-12 are discussing "God, even thy God"... which is YHVH God, and which "anointed thee (Christ) with the oil of gladness".

So, how is YHVH Christ's God ..... if they are "Co-equal"??
 

Dartman

Active member
The Greek word kosmos refers to the entire created order unless the context makes it clear that something else is being said.
No, it doesn't.
NT:2889 orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]):

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The bible says that the same God that created the universe is the One who became flesh and dwelt among us.
Please provide that reference.
 
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