Battle Royale XIV discussion thread

Danoh

New member
We also get into trouble when we take a couple of verses out of the context of the larger statement...

"12 Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

3 The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:

4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted."

Just as we learned to diagram sentences in English class, If you read the whole chapter. In this case we see that God is protecting the poor and the needy, the verse 6 is about God's words being pure and we can trust His commitment to the poor and the needy. In verse 7, it is a statement that God will preserve these people. It isn't God's Word that He has promised to preserve... it's people.

As is often the case between opposed sides all over TOL; as is thus far the case once more on both sides of that debate; as is the case in your above post: each ends up illustrating once more the myopia that attempting to prove a view right or wrong often results in.

For example, you assert "It isn't God's Word that He has promised to preserve... it's people."

You were able to arrive at that conclusion as a result of what?

Of having those passages from which to conclude what you have.

In other words, there they are; still around after all these centuries.

Whatever that means, or implies, one thing is obvious; somehow those passages ended up still being around a bit longer than the time in which they were written.

I'm assuming those words in that chapter had been meant towards encouragement "from this generation for ever."

How would they know that without those words?

Would there even be "a debate" had no Scripture "survived" to begin with?

Those are questions each individual has to ask - questions few appear to. And the more dogmatic the individual, the less they are likely to. All such ever conclude is that to ask such questions to begin with, is to go against their version of "the truth" that one is "being divisive." Myopia on myopia.

At some point; one has to break oneself free from the ill-advised habit of looking at a thing towards proving it either right or wrong, and just look at it to what actually doing so objectively might actually involve; ever aware that tomorrow one may see things in a different light altogether.

If there are no holes in my own argument, I will be very surprised. One must look for the holes in one's own view - constantly.
 

Danoh

New member
As is often the case between opposed sides all over TOL; as is thus far the case once more on both sides of that debate; as is the case in your above post: each ends up illustrating once more the myopia that attempting to prove a view right or wrong often results in.

For example, you assert "It isn't God's Word that He has promised to preserve... it's people."

You were able to arrive at that conclusion as a result of what?

Of having access to those passages (after all these centuries) from which to conclude what you have.

In other words, there they are; still around after all these centuries.

Whatever that means, or implies, one thing is obvious; somehow those passages ended up still being around a bit longer than the time in which they were written.

I'm assuming those words in that chapter had been meant towards encouragement "from this generation for ever."

How would they know that without those words?

Would there even be "a debate" had no Scripture "survived" to begin with?

Those are questions each individual has to ask - questions few appear to. And the more dogmatic the individual, the less they are likely to. All such ever conclude is that to ask such questions to begin with, is to go against their version of "the truth" that one is "being divisive." Myopia on myopia.

At some point; one has to break oneself free from the ill-advised habit of looking at a thing towards proving it either right or wrong, and just look at it to what actually doing so objectively might actually involve; ever aware that tomorrow one may see things in a different light altogether.

If there are no holes in my own argument, I will be very surprised. One must look for the holes in one's own view - constantly.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Spurgeon and others agree that Psalm 12:7 "Thou shalt keep THEM, O LORD, thou shalt preserve THEM from this generation for ever." is speaking of God’s words in contrast to man’s words that being preserved.
They are mistaken.
The verse is speaking of God keeping the Godly and the Faithful mentioned in verse Psalm 12:1.


Psalm 12:1,7
1 Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
. . .
7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.​

 

ddevonb

New member
Uh...you don't suppose God can see the future, do you? Nah...what are the chances of that happening, right?


Totally missed my point. The point is while modern English is often used in international commerce, there was never a time in history that the English that was spoken in the days of King James became that international language.
It would seem more likely that If God's intent was to preserve the Bible in one language, it would more likely be modern English not the old English that was never an international language.
 

ddevonb

New member
They are mistaken.
The verse is speaking of God keeping the Godly and the Faithful mentioned in verse Psalm 12:1.


Psalm 12:1,7
1 Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
. . .
7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.​


The point that people agreed with a position is not evidence for that position. :)

People tend to forget that he Bible doesn't really have verses, but has books and letters. If one wants to have a good understanding of the meaning... one needs to understand the overall context of the passage and even the particular book... and it helps to know the overall story of the Bible, so that one sentence isn't pulled out of context to seem to mean something completely different than intended.
 

False Prophet

New member
Hundreds of verses have completely different meanings, including verses that teach essential doctrines.
These essential doctrines are built from a verse of scripture. They are not in balance and context with the Word of God. That is why when translations veer away from the Authorized Version; dogmatists regard them as heresy.
 

ddevonb

New member
As is often the case between opposed sides all over TOL; as is thus far the case once more on both sides of that debate; as is the case in your above post: each ends up illustrating once more the myopia that attempting to prove a view right or wrong often results in.

For example, you assert "It isn't God's Word that He has promised to preserve... it's people."

You were able to arrive at that conclusion as a result of what?

Of having those passages from which to conclude what you have.

In other words, there they are; still around after all these centuries.

Whatever that means, or implies, one thing is obvious; somehow those passages ended up still being around a bit longer than the time in which they were written.

I'm assuming those words in that chapter had been meant towards encouragement "from this generation for ever."

How would they know that without those words?

Would there even be "a debate" had no Scripture "survived" to begin with?

Those are questions each individual has to ask - questions few appear to. And the more dogmatic the individual, the less they are likely to. All such ever conclude is that to ask such questions to begin with, is to go against their version of "the truth" that one is "being divisive." Myopia on myopia.

At some point; one has to break oneself free from the ill-advised habit of looking at a thing towards proving it either right or wrong, and just look at it to what actually doing so objectively might actually involve; ever aware that tomorrow one may see things in a different light altogether.

If there are no holes in my own argument, I will be very surprised. One must look for the holes in one's own view - constantly.
"

Neither side of this debate is claiming that the word of God has not survived into the present. It is just that one side is claiming that the word has survived in a completely inerrant form... which the Bible itself never promises.
The other side of this argument is saying that God word to man is robust and the message is so thoroughly presented throughout the original Bible message that it survives through translation errors, etc.
Of course there are some translations that are better than others... and I think it is better to use the better translations, but there has never been a perfect translation of any book in history from one language to another. That is simply not how language works. It is about the translators trying to use the best word or phrase to convey the intended meaning of the author... and that also requires understanding of the original meaning.
The comparison to our DNA is a very good one, because even with errors in our DNA there is enough information and redundancy for us to remain humans that are still in the image and likeness of the creator.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
"

Neither side of this debate is claiming that the word of God has not survived into the present. It is just that one side is claiming that the word has survived in a completely inerrant form... which the Bible itself never promises.
From the looks of brandplucked's arguments, the KJO side is claiming that there was never ever a completely inerrant Bible in all of history that could have survived to become the KJV.
They claim that through some miracle God made the KJV as the first complete and inerrant Bible in all of history.
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Spurgeon and others agree that Psalm 12:7 "Thou shalt keep THEM, O LORD, thou shalt preserve THEM from this generation for ever." is speaking of God’s words in contrast to man’s words that being preserved.

Dear Brandplucked,
I am not disputing your translation. I am disputing your interpretation of it. All your comparisons don't address that. Anyone reading the psalm in its entirety (only a few verses) can see that it doesn't mean what you say it does. It is only when you take that one verse out of its context that it is made to look like what you say it does. Spurgeon's opinion is no more authoritative than mine. You simply haven't provided any evidence that the Bible teaches that there will be a set of words which fully consolidate God's word to man. Indeed, it is very clear that God's word to man is ongoing. Of course Jesus himself, the divine son, is the epitome of that communication - the self-revelation of God to us. But that doesn't stop God from talking to us daily, just as he did throughout the history of Israel and to the present day. The exclusivity you claim for the KJV is simply not supported by any of scripture. Your focus on just a single verse is also telling. It demonstrates the paucity of evidence you have. Your position is just wishful thinking.

From the looks of brandplucked's arguments, the KJO side is claiming that there was never ever a completely inerrant Bible in all of history that could have survived to become the KJV.
They claim that through some miracle God made the KJV as the first complete and inerrant Bible in all of history.

Yep. That's what it looks like. It looks irrational to the point of a pathology.
 

Brother Vinny

Active member
Totally missed my point. The point is while modern English is often used in international commerce, there was never a time in history that the English that was spoken in the days of King James became that international language.
It would seem more likely that If God's intent was to preserve the Bible in one language, it would more likely be modern English not the old English that was never an international language.

Technically, the KJV is considered modern English (although Early Modern), as opposed to middle and old English. Middle English a Modern might be able to muddle through reading, while Old English would require a translator.

While some of the meanings have drifted or become apocryphal (no one calls a meat market a "shambles" anymore), there is no need for anything other than a good dictionary to understand the KJV's English.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Unfortunately for you, the Bible is there for all of us...
...I am not surprised that you don't want to get involved in defending the KJVO position explicitly if you can't even find any scripture that supports your presumption of verbal preservation.

You pragmatically admit that the Bible is here. Is it the Word of God or just some nice words put together by men? If so, then it is alive and active.

Heb 4:12NIV
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Technically, the KJV is considered modern English (although Early Modern), as opposed to middle and old English. Middle English a Modern might be able to muddle through reading, while Old English would require a translator.

While some of the meanings have drifted or become apocryphal (no one calls a meat market a "shambles" anymore), there is no need for anything other than a good dictionary to understand the KJV's English.

Excellent point of fact BV. One of the practical reasons to use the AV is to encourage Bible study through eliminating personal ignorance and encouraging excellence in our own language.
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
You pragmatically admit that the Bible is here. Is it the Word of God or just some nice words put together by men? If so, then it is alive and active.

Heb 4:12NIV

False dichotomy. Find me a place in the Bible itself that says that the Bible is the 'Word of God.' Then I will believe you.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Certainly the Bible itself never claims that any particular translation is the word of God that expresses perfectly the thought and intent of the original text. This is not a doctrine at all but rather an opinion of people who lived thousands of years after the Bible was written.

Part of the fallacy of the argument lies in the illogical 'all or nothing' thinking that posits that either every word of the original text is exactly conveyed in English or else the Bible version is not "The Word of God." This 'all or nothing' proposition is illogical in that it sets the bar too high for any translator or group of translators. If followed consistently it calls for an end to ongoing study and scholarship. After all "when the perfect is come" why is there a need to search for a clearer more accurate translation?

It was pointed out that some were uncomfortable with the revision of the cherished Bishops Bible which caused it to be replaced by the KJV The original KJV was revised too in the Cambridge edition. In order for the KJV to be the inspired version the hand of God would have had to be in this multi-staged revision process which is itself an extra-Biblical meta-narrative.
 

James Snapp Jr

New member
Where is Knight??

Where is Knight??

Knight,

The comments here in the Grandstand are all over the map. Were you planning on monitoring and directing the Grandstand at all, or was the intent to just let it sprawl?

Yours in Christ,

James Snapp, Jr.
 

Right Divider

Body part
The King James translators rendered the Hebrew sheol as hell 31 times; 31 times as grave, and three times as pit. Why the inconsistencies for this translation? God is not one of disorder but God is one of peace.
Words in different languages do not have a 1:1 correlation. Therefore, decisions must be made by the translators about the usage of the word in the original language as to its intended meaning.

There really is no such thing as a "word for word" translation.
 

GodsfreeWill

New member
Gold Subscriber
Knight,

Perhaps Bob Enyart and/or Will Duffy could clear something up: they seem to lean on excerpts from the annotations in a Bishops' Bible as evidence that the 1611 KJV had mistakes that issued from the translators as well as from the printer. However, in the Preface to the KJV (The Translators to the Reader), mention is made that "We revised what we had done, and brought back to the anvil that which we had hammered."

Now, having done some translation-work myself, I know that it is entirely possible, even probably, that a translator or team of translators might consider rival renderings once, twice, or multiple times, before finally settling on a rendering. Other than correspondences between the 1611 KJV's text and the annotations, do you have any evidence that the annotations you presented were the direct source of the final form of the text issued by the translators, rather than some intermediate stage of the KJV's production? (Or, if that seems to demand too much speculation, then consider the matter in reverse: are there any such annotations that are not reflected in the 1611 KJV's text?)

James, I was certain you were not King James Only. But maybe I was mistaken. Are you KJO?

As to the 1602 Bishops' Bible, I would recommend you start by reading David Norton's book "The Textual History of the King James Bible". He is the world's leading expert on the KJB. I have found that most Christians and more importantly, most KJOs, have NEVER heard of the 1602 Bishops' Bible. And most importantly, they've never seen it. England allows very few people to see it and it has not been digitally reproduced. I spent four days with it and once you learn what it is and what it represents, the King James Only position is refuted. Without question.

Also: do these items you have pointed out constitute the full extent of your criticism of the KJV's contents? That is, inasmuch as the features that you described as errors (in Deut. 26:1, Second Kings 11:10, and Second Chronicles 32:5) have been subsequently altered -- at least, in the Cambridge edition to which Will Kinney referred -- then what objection do you bring against that particular edition, as far as its alleged completeness and its alleged inerrancy are concerned? Do you agree with Will Kinney that the Cambridge edition of the KJV as currently printed is complete and inerrant, or does your objection go further than the small, corrected points that were the focus of the pictures?

Yours in Christ,

James Snapp, Jr.

James, we do not have a desire to put down the King James Bible or further the arguments for skeptics by finding errors in God's word. That is not our goal and so we may not even do so. This debate is about the King James Only position and that is that God supernaturally intervened in 1611 to provide a complete and inerrant English Bible. That did not happen as we've already demonstrated. Therefore the debate is won, IMO.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Knight,

The comments here in the Grandstand are all over the map. Were you planning on monitoring and directing the Grandstand at all, or was the intent to just let it sprawl?

Yours in Christ,

James Snapp, Jr.
Sprawl is the nature of a forum. It is literally impossible to guide a discussion in an open forum.

My advice is.... just ignore any comments that you are not interested in.
 

Right Divider

Body part
They are mistaken.
The verse is speaking of God keeping the Godly and the Faithful mentioned in verse Psalm 12:1.


Psalm 12:1,7
1 Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
. . .
7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.​

So is verse 6 just stuck in there?
 
Top