Battle Royale XII - Pre Game Thread

[Nathon Detroit]

He wasn’t a perfect angel that transformed himself into Satan,

Actually that's exactly what happened.

Have you ever read how God describes how and why God created Satan? It's right there in His word.

I will give you a hint.... God didn't create Satan evil.

 

[Aethril]

He wasn’t a perfect angel that transformed himself into Satan

Actually that's exactly what happened.

Have you ever read how God describes how and why God created Satan? It's right there in His word.

I will give you a hint.... God didn't create Satan evil.

I know... :jump: I know... :jump:

Ezekial 28:15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

God didn't create Satan evil.

In a often overlooked passage God uses the King of Tyre as an example to describe how Satan was actually created as a protector in the Garden. It was Satan who took opportunity (via pride) to disobey God and therefore fell (we learn in Revelation that about one third of the angels fell with him).

Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. 16 “By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. 17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. 18 “You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you.​

Therefore we know that Satan was created as a "anointed cherub who covers" and it was Satan who fell (God didn't create him evil) "You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor".

The case is now closed! There could never be a more clear description of how Satan was actually created as a protector who fell and turned evil.

MORE EVIDENCE:
To drive home the point even further, we also know that after creation God said everything was "good" (at this point Satan was still good).

Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. ​

At creation everything in heaven and on earth were good! (even Satan).

Yet Satan fell by tempting Eve to sin.... notice what God tells Lucifer regarding what Lucifer did in the garden...

Genesis 3:14 So the LORD God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life.​

“Because you have done this, You are cursed"
“Because you have done this"

God cursed Satan because what he did in the garden, God did not create Satan as a evil being.

In the end....
Would a perfect father put a poisonous snake in the crib with his new born baby? Of course not! God put Satan in the garden as a protector! Yet Satan fell. Satan used his own freewill to disobey God and thus the history of mankind begins with a bang!

 

[Lighthouse]

you are being ridiculous, noone with the smallest vestrige of sanity would "choose" to go into a place of torment, like it or not people would be forced into the place and you must be fully aware of that...its hardly a matter of 'choice' or 'God allowing' people to do anything by your theology

Okay, let's go over this again. They choose to reject God. Well, there's no place else to go at that point. So, by choosing to reject God, they have indeed chosen to go to hell. Because there is no other choice.

But I will agree with you that it's pretty insane to choose to reject God.

 

[Servo]

But I will agree with you that it's pretty insane to choose to reject God.

I agree, but God does not force anyone to be with Him. You can not force love and so God created a place for those who do not love Him and where His presence will not be.

Hell is where God isn't.

 

[Ecumenicist]

God didn't create Satan evil.

In a often overlooked passage God uses the King of Tyre as an example to describe how Satan was actually created as a protector in the Garden. It was Satan who took opportunity (via pride) to disobey God and therefore fell (we learn in Revelation that about one third of the angels fell with him).

Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. 16 “By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. 17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. 18 “You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you.​

Therefore we know that Satan was created as a "anointed cherub who covers" and it was Satan who fell (God didn't create him evil) "You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor".

The case is now closed! There could never be a more clear description of how Satan was actually created as a protector who fell and turned evil.

MORE EVIDENCE:
To drive home the point even further, we also know that after creation God said everything was "good" (at this point Satan was still good).

Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. ​

At creation everything in heaven and on earth were good! (even Satan).

Yet Satan fell by tempting Eve to sin.... notice what God tells Lucifer regarding what Lucifer did in the garden...

Genesis 3:14 So the LORD God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life.​

“Because you have done this, You are cursed"
“Because you have done this"

God cursed Satan because what he did in the garden, God did not create Satan as a evil being.

In the end....
Would a perfect father put a poisonous snake in the crib with his new born baby? Of course not! God put Satan in the garden as a protector! Yet Satan fell. Satan used his own freewill to disobey God and thus the history of mankind begins with a bang!

Genuine curiosity, how does the "King of Tyre" turn into Satan? Both in your
estimation, and in terms of interpretational tradition, if there is one.

thanx,

Dave M.

 

[Ecumenicist]

I agree, but God does not force anyone to be with Him. You can not force love and so God created a place for those who do not love Him and where His presence will not be.

Hell is where God isn't.

By this logic, God is finite, and the "lake of fire" is everything which exists outside of
finite God. In other words, God is the "safe center" of a very hostile universe.

Is this your understanding? Just curious.

thanx.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Genuine curiosity, how does the "King of Tyre" turn into Satan? Both in your
estimation, and in terms of interpretational tradition, if there is one.

thanx,

Dave M.

Was the King of Tyre created as a "anointed cherub"?
Did the King of Tyre sin in the Garden???

It's only a mystery if you make it one.

The Prince of Tyrus is an accepted name for Satan. My interpretation is no private revelation, it's pretty well accepted by a wide variety of sources .

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Genuine curiosity, how does the "King of Tyre" turn into Satan? Both in your
estimation, and in terms of interpretational tradition, if there is one.

thanx,

Dave M.

Also... Dave... I am not sure if you noticed a subtle aspect of my post. I made two separate arguments that can "stand alone" and BOTH demonstrate that Satan was not created evil. Therefore even you have the determination to reject Ezekiel 28, I provided another argument that equally drives home the point.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Was the King of Tyre created as a "anointed cherub"?
Did the King of Tyre sin in the Garden???

It's only a mystery if you make it one.

The Prince of Tyrus is an accepted name for Satan. My interpretation is no private revelation, it's pretty well accepted by a wide variety of sources .

Thanx for the reply, Knight, I appreciate it.

So what about the other nations, Ammon, Moab, Philistia, Edom, Sidon and Egypt?

Who are they supposed to be? Curly, Larry, Mo, Dr. Phil, Mr. Ed, and Groucho Marx?

Granted Tyre does get lambasted more than the others, but it looks to me like
a list of surrounding nations being cursed for not coming to Israel's aid.

Also granted, Tyre's situation does look alot like what we attribute to Satan
traditionally, cherubian and all.

Ever have a suggestion you came up with seemingly confirmed by a third party,
only to find the third party's idea came from you originally? Perhaps something
like that happened here.

Mo: "That's Tyre, but it looks like Satan."

Larry: "He Curly, Tyre looks alot like Satan."

Curly " Hey Mo, Tyre must be Satan!"

Mo: "I knew it!"

(Just a theory)

 

[Memento Mori]

I agree, but God does not force anyone to be with Him. You can not force love and so God created a place for those who do not love Him and where His presence will not be.

Hell is where God isn't.

Actually, that's incorrect, at least according to Psalms.

Psalms 139:8If I ascend the heavens -- there Thou [art], And spread out a couch in Sheol, lo, Thee!

Sheol being the current understanding of 'hell'.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Thanx for the reply, Knight, I appreciate it.

So what about the other nations, Ammon, Moab, Philistia, Edom, Sidon and Egypt?

Who are they supposed to be? Curly, Larry, Mo, Dr. Phil, Mr. Ed, and Groucho Marx?

Granted Tyre does get lambasted more than the others, but it looks to me like
a list of surrounding nations being cursed for not coming to Israel's aid.

Also granted, Tyre's situation does look alot like what we attribute to Satan
traditionally, cherubian and all.

Ever have a suggestion you came up with seemingly confirmed by a third party,
only to find the third party's idea came from you originally? Perhaps something
like that happened here.

Mo: "That's Tyre, but it looks like Satan."

Larry: "He Curly, Tyre looks alot like Satan."

Curly " Hey Mo, Tyre must be Satan!"

Mo: "I knew it!"

(Just a theory)

It can represent both.

God often describes multiple concepts within one passage, He is a master of words. Ignoring that fact will cause you to miss massive "awe-inspiring" parts of God's word.

 

[hitek357]

Would y'all just STOP having Battles Royale when I just don't have the time for it???

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Would y'all just STOP having Battles Royale when I just don't have the time for it???

We miss you!!!!

 

[PKevman]

God created evil.

Do you really believe this Kimberly?

 

[Memento Mori]

Do you really believe this Kimberly?

Isaiah 45:7Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

 

[Ecumenicist]

It can represent both.

God often describes multiple concepts within one passage, He is a master of words. Ignoring that fact will cause you to miss massive "awe-inspiring" parts of God's word.

Unless, of course, a potential multiplicity in concept represents liberal thinking, in which
case its just bad theologizing. Am I right?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Isaiah 45:7Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

Psalm 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Do you really believe this Kimberly?

Its in the Bible.

Don't you believe it?

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid ? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6)

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isa 45:7)

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. (Isa. 54:16)

Do you believe that good and evil are both in the tree of knowledge?

If so, wouldn't that tell you that both good and evil share the same root source?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Unless, of course, a potential multiplicity in concept represents liberal thinking, in which
case its just bad theologizing. Am I right?

Not to be harsh but I think the verse speaks for itself unless someone is being willfully ignorant.