Battle Royale XII - Pre Game Thread

[red77]

Kimberly-
What if God was not in the least responsible for what goes on in the lake of fire? Or hell, for that matter... What if God allowed people to go there, because they chose not to be with Him, even though He doesn't want that for anyone, and then turned His back on te whole thing?

noone would voluntarily walk into a lake of fire, they would have to be forced into such a thing, it could hardly be called God 'allowing' people to do so....

 

[Sharri]

Has everyone already made up their minds who will win? I thought the last debate was going to be interesting, but everyone went into with their minds already made up so it didn't matter what anyone said. Everyone thought their view was the winner. I wonder if there will be any more objectivity this time around.

I thought the last BR was great, I still read the threads. Maybe the reason their minds were made up was becuase they were for the DP.
Just my .02

 

[jeremiah]

Has everyone already made up their minds who will win? I thought the last debate was going to be interesting, but everyone went into with their minds already made up so it didn't matter what anyone said. Everyone thought their view was the winner. I wonder if there will be any more objectivity this time around.

I think that you you are actually asking two seperate questions without realizing it.

Most people already have strong opinions on which view they think is right going into the debate. Therefore they think they know who is going to win.

On the other hand the horse they are backing might have an inferior jockey, or a "blindside" as the jockey in the movie Seabiscuit. Therefore one's superior "horse" could be outridden, in the debate.

Then comes the hard part, in a real horse race, outside of a rules infraction the winner by a neck or more is clear to everyone! In a debate of this type the judging is individual and subjective. If one's horse loses the debate either by persuasive arguments from the other side, or terrible handling of your horse, will you be honest enough to say so?

We are counting on you to show us that type of integrity.

Personally, I followed three debates closely. I agreed with Turbo going in, and theo did nothing to persuade me, and clearly was outmanuevered in that debate.

I do not see how a person could say theo won that debate, yet, they "could" still say that theo was right, and Turbo was wrong.

Those are the two seperate questions. Who won, and who is actually right?

The other debate was about foreknowledge. My jockey was a Calvinist, and he misrode the horse to a loss. Bob Enyart won that debate, and IMHO Bob Enyart, is wrong.

The first debate was about God's existence. That debate Bob Enyart clearly won on a knockout, when Zakath "quit". Although he denies it and claimed he was in the hospital. Others finished the debate for Zakath's side and actually did worse than he did, IMHO.

Yet despite Zakath breaking numerous rules, and time requirements and "quitting" without explanation, for months? Many people in the meantime, STIILL voted him the winner. That debate certainly proves your point. No matter what is said and even if someone quits and loses by "knockout" some people will still vote which side they think "ought" to have won.

In any event don't take those types of people too seriously. They lack the integrity that you are looking for.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Kimberly-
What if God was not in the least responsible for what goes on in the lake of fire? Or hell, for that matter... What if God allowed people to go there, because they chose not to be with Him, even though He doesn't want that for anyone, and then turned His back on te whole thing?

What about the billions of people who have never even heard of Jesus or the Gospel. Do they choose to go to Hell?


God..."desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim. 2:4)

I believe He will accomplish all His desire.

He said so Himself...."Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,' Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. (Isa. 46:10-11)

 

[Lighthouse]

noone would voluntarily walk into a lake of fire, they would have to be forced into such a thing, it could hardly be called God 'allowing' people to do so....

Actually, they would walk into hell. Then they would be thrown into the lake of fire, when hell is. However, they wouldn't have to go to hell voluntarily. All they would have to do is reject Christ.

 

[Lighthouse]

What about the billions of people who have never even heard of Jesus or the Gospel. Do they choose to go to Hell?


God..."desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim. 2:4)

I believe He will accomplish all His desire.

He said so Himself...."Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,' Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. (Isa. 46:10-11)

A just and loving God would never leave people without a choice. He will make sure they hear hat they need to hear.

 

[Kimberlyann]

A just and loving God would never leave people without a choice. He will make sure they hear hat they need to hear.

I agree. :thumb:

 

[red77]

Actually, they would walk into hell. Then they would be thrown into the lake of fire, when hell is. However, they wouldn't have to go to hell voluntarily. All they would have to do is reject Christ.

In tht case your earlier post about God "allowing" people to go to the lake of fire made no sense Lighthouse.....obviously no person is going to 'walk' into hell or the lake of fire by their own free will but forced there, there's no love of any kind in that if you believe both hell and the LOF to be places of torment that carry on to eternity with no other purpose than to cause agonising pain

 

[Nathon Detroit]

No, God isn't sadistic. I can't imagine God having to force anyone to spend eternity with Him once they know the truth.

Kimberlyann, YES or NO... does Satan know the "truth"?

follow-up.....
YES or NO, does the truth compel Satan to humble himself to God?

 

[Lighthouse]

In tht case your earlier post about God "allowing" people to go to the lake of fire made no sense Lighthouse.....obviously no person is going to 'walk' into hell or the lake of fire by their own free will but forced there, there's no love of any kind in that if you believe both hell and the LOF to be places of torment that carry on to eternity with no other purpose than to cause agonising pain

Are you really that thick? No one is forced to go to hell. No one. They go of their own free will, because they use that will to reject Christ. There is no other alternative. The only reason you can say they are forced into the lake of fire is that hell is thrown into the lake of fire, and there really is no choice after you have decided to reject Christ. If you decided to do that, then you have chosen hell, and thereby have chosen the lake of fire. Whether the lake of fire is eternal conscious torment, or if it's annihilation doesn't even matter at this point. All we know for sure is that no one is getting out of either.

 

[red77]

Are you really that thick? No one is forced to go to hell. No one. They go of their own free will, because they use that will to reject Christ. There is no other alternative. The only reason you can say they are forced into the lake of fire is that hell is thrown into the lake of fire, and there really is no choice after you have decided to reject Christ. If you decided to do that, then you have chosen hell, and thereby have chosen the lake of fire. Whether the lake of fire is eternal conscious torment, or if it's annihilation doesn't even matter at this point. All we know for sure is that no one is getting out of either.

you are being ridiculous, noone with the smallest vestrige of sanity would "choose" to go into a place of torment, like it or not people would be forced into the place and you must be fully aware of that...its hardly a matter of 'choice' or 'God allowing' people to do anything by your theology

 

[Kimberlyann]

Kimberlyann, YES or NO... does Satan know the "truth"?

That's a tough question. I don't know how much truth Satan knows. I don't believe Satan was a perfect angel that willfully gave up his place in heaven. I believe he was created to be God's adversary in the beginning.

follow-up.....
YES or NO, does the truth compel Satan to humble himself to God?

If not now, we know that He will. "...at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:10-11)

I look forward to this debate, it will be fun to watch Pastor Kevin and Logos battle it out.

See you in The Grandstands :wave:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

That's a tough question. I don't know how much truth Satan knows.

Wow. You really believe that Satan doesn't know for sure that God exists??? That's just plain bizarre Kimberlyann. Not to be rude but....have you read the Bible?

I don't believe Satan was a perfect angel that willfully gave up his place in heaven. I believe he was created to be God's adversary in the beginning.

Huh????

That's not what the Bible says.

 

[cfisher]

I believe he was created to be God's adversary in the beginning.

ahhh yes, God's eternal plan to create enemies against himself. Then there is always that Bible story about God shooting himself in the foot because it seemed like a good idea at the time.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

ahhh yes, God's eternal plan to create enemies against himself. Then there is always that Bible story about God shooting himself in the foot because it seemed like a good idea at the time.

You forgot the sarcasm smilie!

Point well made! :up:

 

[PKevman]

I think the debate in the Grandstands ought to be interesting too from the looks of it.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Wow. You really believe that Satan doesn't know for sure that God exists??? That's just plain bizarre Kimberlyann. Not to be rude but....have you read the Bible?[

Of course Satan knows God exists.

I don't believe Satan was a perfect angel that willfully gave up his place in heaven. I believe he was created to be God's adversary in the beginning.

Huh????

That's not what the Bible says.

No, the Bible says that Satan was a sinner from the beginning.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

It also says that he was a liar and murder from the beginning.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)

He wasn’t a perfect angel that transformed himself into Satan, that’s what he wants you to believe. Satan transformed himself into an angel of light.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (2 Cor. 11:44)

God created evil.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isa 45:7)

God created the destroyer.

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. (Isa. 54:16)

 

[Kimberlyann]

ahhh yes, God's eternal plan to create enemies against himself. Then there is always that Bible story about God shooting himself in the foot because it seemed like a good idea at the time.

I think Satan is part of Gods eternal plan.

 

[Servo]

I think Satan is part of Gods eternal plan.

Do you believe that Satan is a free will being?

 

[Kimberlyann]

I think the debate in the Grandstands ought to be interesting too from the looks of it.

:chuckle:

I'm going to bow out now. You and Logos have at it. :box: