Battle Royale VII Specific discussion thread

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Freak

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Turbo adds:

In rejecting God, an individual or societal conscience can be seared and values lowered. So tribesmen can adopt minimalist clothing and condition their women to go topless, but missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty [after they have been introduced to God].

Now did Bob say that (Turbo is that what Bob meant in the bold)?
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Freak

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Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
But it's not in Europe, which is what I meant.

Then don't ask me:

You ever seen any African tribeswomen at a European resort?

You should have asked:

Freak, have you seen a African tribeswomen in Europe running around topless.




:chuckle:
 

Turbo

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I'm sure he did. The bracketed phrase was implied by the word "missionaries."

That's how I interpreted his statement. Knight and others seem to have interpreted it that way too.


If you misunderstood Bob's intent, but now understand it, does that mean your objection dissolves?
 
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Freak

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Bob said:

...but missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty.

This statement by Bob could be easily understood that the missionaries discovered that when they entered the land the topless woman were readily reasserting their modesty.

And I'm telling you from reality that is a false statement.
 

Freak

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Again Turbo within context:

In rejecting God, an individual or societal conscience can be seared and values lowered. So tribesmen can adopt minimalist clothing and condition their women to go topless, but missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty. *Turbo, there was no: [after they have been introduced to God]. That is something you added.
 

flash

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Bob's point was "Behaviors that are characteristically human, which are unlike those in the animal kingdom from which we supposedly evolved just a short time ago, testify to a morality of human nature imposed upon us by the Creator."

He is claiming that the modesty women show regarding showing their breasts testifies to a morality of human nature imposed upon us by the Creator. According to the discussion here, many of you think that the modesty is culturally derived. Bob is claiming that when God is rejected, so is the modesty, and when God is embraced, the modesty returns.
 

Turbo

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Originally posted by Freak
Again Turbo within context:

In rejecting God, an individual or societal conscience can be seared and values lowered. So tribesmen can adopt minimalist clothing and condition their women to go topless, but missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty. *Turbo, there was no: [after they have been introduced to God]. That is something you added.
Yeah, I know. That's why I put it in brackets.

He also didn't say they immediately reasserted their modesty upon the arrival of the missionaries.


Now that you and I have both presented our initial interpretations of Bob's statement, which do you suppose is closer to what Bob meant to convey?
 

Freak

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Originally posted by Turbo
He also didn't say they immediately reasserted their modesty upon the arrival of the missionaries.

In rejecting God, an individual or societal conscience can be seared and values lowered. So tribesmen can adopt minimalist clothing and condition their women to go topless, but missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty.

He begins this portion of the statement, "In rejecting God..." therefore implying that he's refering to those (the women in question) whom the missionaries "find." So, it appears he's telling us that when missionaries arrive in such places they find the women (who have rejected God) to "readily reassert their modesty" which is not the case at all.

As I mentioned before, Bob must have understood my concerns & he must have understood that it could be interpreted the way I did for he posted a response to me in regards to this issue.
 

Flipper

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OEJ:

Bring them over to a culture where women cover their breasts, and I don't think they'd be so keen on running around topless.

Oh you know better than to say that.

That's a terrible way to try to defend Bob's argument, if only because it fails to demonstrate any casuality between his statement and yours.

If clothing is a cultural norm, a certain amount of acculturation is to be expected. In most Western societies, complete nudity is frowned on or even illegal. Often, it's just too darn cold. And in an Islamic society, being naked could earn you extreme sanctions.

Furthermore, there are some quite reasonable (non-theistic) arguments to be made for the utility of clothes. They protect us from rain and too much sun. They warm us when we're cold. They provide handy pockets for us to keep our shiny things and credit cards in.

Appealing to some facet of Adamic conscience seems kind of unfounded. Furthermore, you must agree that in cultures where environment conditions and adaptions don't require clothing, historical records seem to show a marked lack of modesty (much of pre-colonial Africa, South sea cultures, Aborigines, Yanomani, etc). In cultures like the Masai, people build shelters and make elaborate jewelry wear, practise animal husbandry, etc, but they don't bother covering their breasts. It just doesn't seem to be a priority.

I can maybe see a case for people who have become Christians adopting more clothing but again, that doesn't necessarily match Bob's assertion which seemed to imply that everyone had been sitting about just dying to put on clothes until then. I don't see any evidence that allows him to assign a re-emergence of some hypothetical nascent conscience as a result. Why can't it be attributed to the fact they they have now been told that nudity is a sin, and that sinners are punished for eternity?

Dear oh dear.
 

Turbo

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Originally posted by Freak
In rejecting God, an individual or societal conscience can be seared and values lowered. So tribesmen can adopt minimalist clothing and condition their women to go topless, but missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty.

He begins this portion of the statement, "In rejecting God..." therefore implying that he's refering to those (the women in question) whom the missionaries "find." So, it appears he's telling us that when missionaries arrive in such places they find the women (who have rejected God) to "readily reassert their modesty" which is not the case at all.
I think you are misinterpreting the word "find." Read these examples:


When I need to see clearly, I find my glasses.

When I need to see clearly, I find my glasses to be useful.



Can you see how the word "find" does not mean the same thing in both sentences? Please read Bob's statement again, with care. I think you will find that he was using it in the same context as in my second example, and this sentence.
 
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Freak

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Originally posted by Turbo
I think you are misinterpreting the word "find." Read these examples:

Pulling a Bill Clinton on us, huh? Depends on what you define is is.

Bob stated: ...but missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty.

Missionaries arrive and they find women in such cultures (what cultures....from the context of this portion--a culture that rejects God) readily reassert(ing) their modesty.

This is a lie. Pagan tribeswomen do not readily reassert their modesty upon the arrival of missionaries.

Futhermore, lets give Bob the benefit of the doubt and say that what he really meant is that when missionaries convert pagan women they are readily reasserting their modesty.

Even then we have found that is not always true. Generally speaking, yes, but not always. Santification (ex--ones understanding of modesty, etc) does not occur overnight and often times these woman are not readily reasserting their modesty after coming to Jesus. For they believe their culture, as Flipper pointed out, allows them the acceptance of their immodest appearance.

So either way, Turbo, Bob is still in error and promoting an inaccurate view of reality. Ha!
 
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Nathon Detroit

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Originally posted by Freak
This is a bold face lie! Repent Bob.
Freak accusing Bob of lying is a pretty bold claim.

Even if Bob were wrong on the topic (which I don't think he is) it could hardly be deduced that he was lying.

Not only do I reject your assertion that Bob was wrong I am offended that you would accuse Pastor Bob of lying.

I ask that you publicly apologize.
 

Turbo

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Freak, I think you are reading Bob's statement this way:
In rejecting God, an individual or societal conscience can be seared and values lowered. So tribesmen can adopt minimalist clothing and condition their women to go topless, but [WHEN]missionaries find ... women in such cultures [THE WOMEN] readily reassert their modesty.
Am I right?
 

Vitamin J

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Originally posted by Freak
No, because they didn't have any modesty in the first place as they were "dead in their sins." :p
It seems to me that Adam and Eve were also dead in their sin after the fall yet that was the very moment they first displayed modesty.

BEFORE SIN:
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. - Genesis 2:25

AFTER SIN:
Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

So he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself." - Genesis 3:7&10
 

Freak

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To recap:

Bob stated:

In rejecting God, an individual or societal conscience can be seared and values lowered. So tribesmen can adopt minimalist clothing and condition their women to go topless, but missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty. Behaviors that are characteristically human, which are unlike those in the animal kingdom from which we supposedly evolved just a short time ago, testify to a morality of human nature imposed upon us by the Creator.

Bob basically tells us that "missionaries find that women in such cultures (what kind of culture you may ask? A culture that rejects God) readily (which I know to be false from what I have seen & heard) reassert their modesty."

The facts are:

Missionaries (for I come from a family of missionaries in Western Africa) do not find "women" readily (even after conversion due to cultural issues, etc) reasserting their modesty.

Bob has not traveled extensively in the third world so he does not not speak from first hand knowledge as I do.

Bob has not told us who these missionaries were that he gather his information from.

Bob, I'm calling on you to retract your statement.
 
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Freak

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Originally posted by Knight
Freak accusing Bob of lying is a pretty bold claim.

Yes it is.


Not only do I reject your assertion that Bob was wrong I am offended that you would accuse Pastor Bob of lying.

Well I am offended that he lied. Is his statement absolutely true, Knight? ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!!

I ask that you publicly apologize.

I'm asking him to apologize!
 

Freak

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Knight, I'm calling you to retract the outlandish idea that I need to apologize.

Bob posted: "missionaries find that women in such cultures reassert their modesty."

Is that a absolutely true statement?
 

Turbo

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Freak, first you say:
Originally posted by Freak
Yes, a life changes (including ones modesty) when you come to Christ...
Then you say:
Futhermore, lets give Bob the benefit of the doubt and say that what he really meant is that when missionaries convert pagan women they are readily reasserting their modesty.

Even then we have found that is not always true. Generally speaking, yes, but not always.
If you object to Bob not stating that there may be an exception, why didn't you mention the exceptions when you stated almost the exact same idea?

Why the double standard, Freak?
 
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