Battle Royale VII Specific discussion thread

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LightSon

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Originally posted by Flake
Do you theists ever reason things out?
We try!
There are volumes written on where evil comes from and God's role.

So, do we live in a supernatural universe or a natural one?
I believe we basically live in a natural world, yet there is a supernatural dimension which does interface with us from time to time. I also believe in creation ex nilo which is a demonstrably supernatural phenomenon. I also believe in all the miracles reported in scritpure. I believe in the resurrection of the dead.

Strange guy, huh?
Does evil exist in a supernatural world, if not, then did god create evil? If he didnt create evil, and we where made in his image, then is god, in part, evil? If god is not evil, and evil is just a human preserve, and god didnt make it, then god in his infinate wisdom created beings capable of it, in full knowledge that evil will be perpetrated by his creations. In fact, it could be reasoned that god, as a byproduct of creating man, created evil in full knowledge of the fact that evil wasnt there before, which is an evil act in itself. I thought god could not do evil.

In my paradigm, if you go back far enough, all there was was God. This implies there were no angels, no universe and perhaps not even time (not sure about that one). And then...........there was evil. Where did it come from?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

This is one of the puzzles of creation. Personally I hold to an all powerful, all knowing God, who is also good. What God does he has morrally sufficient reason for doing. While these puzzles are hard to unravel, I suspect the answer lies in understanding God as best we can through what He has revealed about Himself in the Bible. Through the Spirit of God, He reveals deep things about Himself to those who know Him. I also suspect we need to look at the will of God verses what He ordains. They are two different things.
 

LightSon

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Originally posted by August
You seem to argue that I said that the resurrection did not occur, which is not true. I am confident that it did. The point is that it is a flimsy basis for religion to hang it all on one event that can be duplicated by others - even non-Christians.

If Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures, then the Christian world view is validated.

If you are confident that the resurrection occured then you have no excuse to reject Christ.

Originally posted by August
If that's all there is to Christianity, I wouldn't blame others for being disinterested in it.

There is more to Christianity. The resurrection of Christ is the beginning of our new life in Him.

I know of no other religion that boasts a risen messiah. God has demonstrated power over death, and you "wouldn't blame others for being disinterested in it". I find that remark simply incredible.
 

Flake

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When you talk of god, can you be sure that you are not talking of a 'mental personification' of the natural and amazing processes of the universe, allowing emotive mystery free reign on your imagination colored by hopes, fears, desire? This process is a feature of the psychology of us humans.

"Here there be dragons"
 

Flake

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Originally posted by LightSon
I know of no other religion that boasts a risen messiah. God has demonstrated power over death, and you "wouldn't blame others for being disinterested in it". I find that remark simply incredible.

Resurection myth, amongst others, is a feature of many pre-christian and concurrent religions.

The Mithraists had a special day dedicated to their god. It was the first day of they week, which they appropriately called Sun-day, the "day of our Lord". [4] Mithra was the God of the upper and nether world and it is he who will judge men's deeds. [5] The Jewish thinker, Philo had already identified the Logos with the Sun, it was therefore natural and inevitable that the early Christians should identify Jesus with such a symbol. Sunday became established as the Lord's Day for the Christians as well. [6] From this observance of Sunday, the myth eventually evolved to connect the rising of Jesus with that day. It is worth noting that the Mithraist ritual involve the liturgical representation of the death, burial (also in a rock tomb!) and resurrection of the god Mithra. [7]

Other contemporary mystery religions no doubt contributed to the evolution of Christian mythology. The Syrian cult of Adonis also had a large following during the time of early Christianity. Adonis, which means The Lord (Hebrew: Adonai), was represented in the liturgy as dying and then rising again on the third day. And in this liturgy it was the women who mourned his death and who found him risen on the third day. [8]

The Egyptian cult of Osiris had a similar belief; for it was Osiris who was dead and rose again on the third day. [9]

Early Christian liturgy was also clearly absorbed and imported from the mystery religions. The Greco-Roman cult of Dionysius had their God, born of the virgin, Semele, being torn to pieces by the Titans. He was then resurrected by his mother. In commemorating his sacrificial death, the devotees ate bread and wine to represent his body and blood. The Mithraist too had a eucharistic celebration very similar to the Christian one. And it was also Mithraism who first came up with the sign of the cross, made on the forehead. It was the supreme symbol of their belief. The worship of Osiris too involve veneration of the Osirian cross, the emblem of their god. [10]

In fact the beliefs, rituals and liturgy of the mystery cults, which antedated Christianity, so closely paralleled the Christian ones that the early Church Fathers insisted that the devil must have had a hand in these cults! [11]

The historical origin of the central events of Christianity did not begin with the actual resurrection of a Galilean Jew. It began when Jewish religious philosophy was grafted onto Greco-Roman paganism.
 
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RogerB

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Originally posted by heusdens
To Mr Bob Enyart

Of course you realy don't want to talk that. The nature of the question is quite objectively, cause it is stated here, anyone can see this. I don't think an argument can be found by providing you subjective definitions of objectivity itself.

But despite that you refute to make a confession that, although we happen to be subjective beings, and that counts both for you for me and everybody else, this does not mean that no objective reality exists.

It might be you are running from that kind of confession all your life.
But reality happens to exist in a way there is no escape possible.
The only thing one can do is to fool oneself into thinking that apart from one's own mind and thought and awareness, no objective reality exist.

The fact that I acknowledge to the fact that such an objective reality, and therefore an objective truth exists, does not make me in any way special, neither does it entitle me to claim that I have a better understanding of that objective reality as anyone else.

All you do here, is in fact hiding for the truth and for reality itself, and choose the cheapest way out. Quarelling about the nature of posted questions, and looking for sideways, instead of finding ways to truthfully answer such questions.

But I guess that is just the nature of the game you choose to play.
Nature itself though, doesn't play games. It forms a honest and trustworthy truth base for anyone who wants to find real knowledge and real understanding. It is the most fruitfull source of knowledge we have for humankind, to deliver us necessary knowledge about our relation to this cosmos we happen to live in.

Some people are not not equipped for facing real truths, but instead choose to play games with it, or invent their own truths.

The question I put forward, is quite profound and goes profoundly deep, since it is a straight forward question. So I take it that the issue, which is profoundly discussed and debated here, wether or not there exists a God urges one to at least make clear what one defines as 'existence' and what one defines as 'God'. It then takes urges us to define what those words in fact mean.

The issue of the existence of God, when faced with a direct question about it, how 'real' that God is, then takes you to in fact deny or doubting at least that anything, anything at all, could be objective.
You doubt the objective existence of my question, as well as anything else.

Is that the nature of your belief? Denying objectivity, and denying the objective existence of the world itself?

It then must be, perhaps, that since you argue about objective existence, and assume that therefore all we can know, are nothing but private opinions, which are just subjective interpretations of reality.

Your belief in God means that in your mind, the world in fact does not even exist in an objective way, outside of your own mind.

God is in your mind a subjective consciousness, which supposedly had eternal existence, and created the world. Nothing outside of your mind, in your interpretation of truth and reality, has objective existence. Hence it follows that the God Mr Bob Enyart has in mind is nothing more or less then Mr Bob Enyard himself.

Any claim beyond that subjectivity, is in the interpretation of Mr Bob Enyart himself of reality as a purely subjective entity, impossible.

We may ask however the relevant question, wether or not such a question exist in an objective way, as to what does that consciousness experience, if it does not experiences anything beyond it self. Everything is pure self imagination?
Or do conscious beings experience something which is outside, apart from and independend of their consciousness, which is objectively there. A wild speculation? Unprovable?

Even if your belief system does not permit us to acknowledge the truth, it must have appeared for your stomach for instance that the meal it had digested (let us hope here, that it tasted well) was undoubtly there. No way for your stomach to take any other approach here.

As for your belief system itself, since it puts itself in the position that it simply denies any outside objective reality, any reference to there being a God, can be hold to have no significance. God can not be something else then subjective, so we would not have to look elsewhere for this mighty God then the consciousness of Mr Bob Enyart himself.

It can be claimed then that the belief system of a solipists, who deny there being something outside of one's own head, has every resemblance with the belief system of Mr Bob Enyart, and is in fact one and the same belief.

Even so, of most solpisists it is known that despite there belief system, in ordinary life they go for the safe approach, and deal with their daily facts as were they the real facts of life.
They do not run over busy streets, pretending that everything they see is merely a creation of their own imagination, but deal with reality as an objective entity.

Which is of course the best way one can perform ones life.

What is the make and model of you random text generator?
 

RogerB

New member
Originally posted by Flake
Resurection myth, amongst others, is a feature of many pre-christian and concurrent religions.

Atheists pass along erroneous information like an elephant with diarrhea.
 

bob b

Science Lover
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Flake, (and others)

Please stay on topic. Only discuss the issues that Bob and Zakath have raised. These other topics are interesting to be sure, but this thread was started to discuss only the postings of Bob and Zakath.

There are other threads to discuss whatever enters your minds.

Thank you.
 

.Ant

New member
Interesting

Interesting

Originally posted by Flake
Interesting that god would allow an anti-god situation, but as you say we have free will...
It's very interesting. Along with God sending his Son to die because of it.

Originally posted by Flake
Exactly correct, not us personally but I get your gist. And does it not follow that we also created righteousness, goodness etc? Why ascribe the bad things only to us people, created in gods image and purported to be endowed with his qualities of righteousness etc, and the good things to a supernatural ideal?
Righteousness is defined by God, so we did not create it. God created us perfect and good, but we sinned, and ever since Adam we have been born in a fallen state, and a fallen world.

Originally posted by Flake
Please refer to my previous "old" argument of the evil nature of creating evil possibilities where there was none before, and recognise the contradictory nature of an evil-free god being only predisposed to make evil capable creations, the concept as you point out, is anti-god, and the supposition you make that only a combination of evil/good allows free will, something that god must not possess.
It's not a combination of evil/good... but the possibility of evil.

Saying God doesn't have free-will is pointless, having defined free-will as the possibility of rebellion. So he doesn't have free-will - he's above it.





Originally posted by Flake
When you talk of god, can you be sure that you are not talking of a 'mental personification' of the natural and amazing processes of the universe, allowing emotive mystery free reign on your imagination colored by hopes, fears, desire? This process is a feature of the psychology of us humans.
It's called the Bible.





Originally posted by Michael12
This is called a "house of cards". Facts not in evidence, yet assumed to be true by the story teller, rest on each other. As for number two, your "strong" evidence, even if conscience suggests an absolute standard (it doesn't), it's no more evidence of a God then it is of creation by aliens, or a magic pink unicorn.
Well, it's evidence of a particular kind of creator - one who cares about us enough to give us inbuilt guidelines for our safety.

Originally posted by Michael12
No, it proves the Big Bang didn't happen.
Another room in the crumbling house of cards.
Well, that's good of you, denouncing an argument with no explanation whatsoever.

Originally posted by Michael
I never understand why you guys make this so hard on yourselves. Why is "faith" not a good enough answer for you to respond with? Why is it that twisting science to meet your needs has become a better, more effective tactic then simply saying "I believe because I have faith"?
Saying "I believe because of faith, not science" is saying that you believe despite the evidence - a terribly blind faith that could lead you to belief in anything. No, we believe because of the evidence.

The main reason for showing people this is to show that Christianity is credible and rational. No-one will ever come to Christ if they think the faith is incredible, irrational, or unsupported by evidence.

Saying "I believe because I have faith", which is of course true (and true of evolutionists also), tends to reinforce the idea many people (especially in younger generations) have, that truth is relative: I believe in God, you don't, and that's no problem... The fact is, one of us is wrong.





Originally posted by August
.Ant wrote:
<August, that's stupid. None of the above are alternatives, as they all assume God exists.>

The use of invective is an indication of fear and uncertainty.
And annoyance. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by August
The rest of the statemennt was only intended to point out the fact that, if it does exist, it doesn't necessarily follow that God made it.
It follows a lot better than Satan, angels or aliens having made it... Existence of Satan / angels assumes God exists. Aliens making it is just putting off the question - where did the aliens come from?








These conversations are continued at this thread. Please post all replies there.
 
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ZroKewl

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I know I am biased (obviously), but aren't Zakath's posts more readable than Bob's? Reading Bob's posts is like reading random pages from the dictionary -- um... I'll give him an atlas instead. I agree with Zakath that it seems like he's just testing material. It's like a stand up comic that is just throwing out some random jokes to see if people will laugh. We get some laughs... and some "oohs" and "aaahs"... but it just isn't very mentally stimulating. (As opposed to the sort of comics who tie in various stories and actually involve the intellect of the audience.) Again, I readily admit my bias up front.

I had never seen the "Project Steve" thing. I laughed my donkey off (Knight got on to me for using that other word). Too freaking funny.

I'm (not really) looking forward to Bob's next posting. I figure it'll be about 100,000 words this time. Geez. It's as if he thinks whoever says the most words wins. Quality, Bob.... not quantity.

--ZK
 
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jeremiah

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Zakath contends in his latest post that after thousands of years of interaction between alleged deities and humans no one deity or belief system can account for even convincing 50 % of the world's population that its deity is the correct, or real one. Well for millions of supposed years of prior interaction, and now thousands of years of concurrent interaction with human kind: The unseen evolutionary process, or natural selection, or nature, whatever you want to call what has driven man to where he is now, this thing?, has only convinced less than 10 % of the world's population to understand its fallacious beliefs in an unseen world, and its inhabitants called "gods"? Or conversely to select out the feeble minded, and weak religionists? Wait a new theory, "Survival of the feeble minded", that explains it ! :chuckle:
Evolution. how we all got here, has put strange ideas in the minds of its ultimate "creation" man a sentient being, and makes us think, pssst... hey there is an unseen , unknowable creature called "GOD" he made you. It wasn't me. I don't want to be blamed for this mess you have made, of me.:help:
 
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ZroKewl

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Originally posted by jeremiah
<clip>
Actually, it's pretty logical as to why we believe in God. It meets our needs.

For instance, the basic tenet of evolution is "survival of the fittest". Those that are most fit will live to reproduce. See, survival is key to the evolution of the species. Our greatest asset (for survival) is our brains. However, it can also be a weakness. It makes us aware of our own mortality. A depressed and hopeless species will not be motivated to survive.

There are other reasons, too... but I digress. Bottom line is this: you believe in God because it makes you happy. Once you realize that you can be as happy or happier not believing in God, you will stop believing in God. A happy human, is a propogated human.

--ZK
 

jeremiah

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I feel sorry for all the thousands of Steve's who never went to college, or never got a doctorate in science, or got a doctorate in science and yet could never sign a statement as smart as the one, those 378 Steve's could. I know a Steve, he is a good man, loves his family, generous to a fault. Says he loves God with all his heart. He isn't very bright, no degree in science and doesn't even understand it. Poor miserable sot. Maybe someday he can be a bright educated, generous, family man who knows that he evolved from ape like ancestors. :cry:
 

jeremiah

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..... final thought for tonight. Don't you think it is fairly rude of Zakath to pose a dilemna for Bob when he hasn't even attempted to answer some perfectly good, and more relevant dilemnas that Bob has posed to Zakath. Maybe Bob should answer by saying, if you answer one of my dilemnas first, then I will answer yours.:) ;)
 

Ash1

New member
argument from authority

argument from authority

Zakath doesn't seem to be reading Bob's posts carefully enough or something because it doesn't seem like he's grasping the points.

One example is the 'argument from authority' accusation in his 7th post. He claims that Bob said these smart guys believe in God so He must exist. What Bob was actually saying is that people that believe in God can have a healthy understanding of science, and have actually discovered a great deal of the fundemental laws. This is exactly what atheists don't want you to know.

What's even more bizarre is, after Zakath critisizes the 'argument from authority' approach that he misread somehow, in the next paragraph he makes his OWN argument from authority with the 'Steve list'.

I know, maybe Bob's posts are too much for Zakath to digest or something because they're so long.
 

Flake

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Ash, you are perceptive enough to see the point, so is Zakath, however, arguments are often veiled. The 'argument from authority' is there. Zakaths own list is tongue in cheek which is rather obvious, and demonstrates that even a jokingly presented atheist 'appeal to authority' runs rings around the theist equivalent. Oneupmanship, not what we are here for but entertaining nonetheless. :)
 
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Berean Todd

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Originally posted by ZroKewl
I know I am biased (obviously), but aren't Zakath's posts more readable than Bob's? Reading Bob's posts is like reading random pages from the dictionary -- um... I'll give him an atlas instead.

Are you serious? Bob has been killing Zakath; he has made countless points that Zakath refuses to answer because he knows that they make him look bad. He has explained in detail great evidence for theism, yet Zak will not address any of it, preferring to make light of the pastor.

The next time Zakath makes a well reasoned argument, or faces to any facts that Bob has brought up will be the first. Bob has answered close to everything Zak has addressed yet Zak is affraid to adress any issues Bob brings up. You think there might be a reason for that?
 

.Ant

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Flake, stuff like that gets in the way of the debate.

The same can be said for some of Bob's gibes at Zakath... it muddies the waters, at the least, and the only person taking the time to un-muddy them is Bob.
 

ZroKewl

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Originally posted by jeremiah
I feel sorry for all the thousands of Steve's who never went to college, or never got a doctorate in science, or got a doctorate in science and yet could never sign a statement as smart as the one, those 378 Steve's could. I know a Steve, he is a good man, loves his family, generous to a fault. Says he loves God with all his heart. He isn't very bright, no degree in science and doesn't even understand it. Poor miserable sot. Maybe someday he can be a bright educated, generous, family man who knows that he evolved from ape like ancestors. :cry:
It's sad... but true. Some people are just stupid. Those stupid people listen to the "little bit smarter" people since they can understand them. The stupid people dismiss the "a heckuva lot smarter" people, because they don't even understand what they are saying.

It's like training a dog. You condition him by giving him treats to make him happy when he does what you want him to do. You can even be stupid, just as long as you are a bit smarter than the dog. He'll then listen to "Sit Fido, Sit". Or: "Shake hands"... or "Roll Over"... or "Bad Dog!!". But, if someone comes along and says: "It is in your best interest, Fido, for you to not crap inside the house, as it will lead to family discourd and you will find yourself sleeping outside, and be much less happy than you are right now" -- then Fido just looks puzzled and thinks the human is talking gibberish. Just hit Fido with a newspaper, rub his nose in the crap, and then he'll learn.

--ZK
 

August

New member
.Ant wrote:
<
Flake, stuff like that gets in the way of the debate.

The same can be said for some of Bob's gibes at Zakath... it muddies the waters, at the least,
and the only person taking the time to un-muddy them is Bob.>

I agree, but if you criticize others for doing that, you should not make the same mistake yourself.
This subject of evolution keeps coming up in the debate.
Less than 400 scientists represents a tiny minority of all American scientists. And Thomas Kuhn's studies demonstrated that scientists were at least as reluctant as the rest of the population to accept an idea that is contrary to their present paradigm.
What troubles me most about this subject is the hypocrisy of the biologists. The best evidence that we have now does indicates that the bodies of animals tend to evolve, but not always in the way described by Darwin. There is an ongoing disagreement between the statisticians and the biologists over the probabilities. For example, fossil remains, carbon dating, etc., enable us to trace clearly the development of the elephant through its various stages from a smaller animal of a somewhat different shape. Knowing the time period of a generation and the approximate population of the various stages, we can estimate the number of reproductions that have taken place through this evolutionary process. The probability that the development could take place that fast, through random mutation and survival of the fittest, is so small that it is statistically equivalent to violating Boyle's Law. A variation of this criticism is one given by Bergson in "Creative Evolution". Of course, these criticisms don't prove that God had anything to do with it - just that there are unresolved weaknesses in Darwin's theory.
But how did the biologists address this criticism? They didn't. They resorted to dogma, and asserted, "Well, that's how it is, anyway." Then the evolutionists resorted to enforcement of their dogma. They had a teacher fired, not for teaching creationism, but for telling her class that Darwinian evolution was a theory. These are the same people that constantly complain about the church being dogmatic and enforcing its doctrines.
 

heusdens

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To Mr Bob Enyart and Zakath

To Mr Bob Enyart and Zakath

To Mr Bob Enyart and Mr Zakath,

To both of you (Mr Bob Enyart and Mr Zakath) I want to adress the question of how each of you could reflect on this statement about what God in fact IS and NOT IS, as is described in the contribution below.

Please explain to us wether such a proposed concept about what God in fact IS and NOT IS, does truthfully explain and portray your own mental concept about God, and wether or not it could satisfactory resolve the questions regarding the issue of the existence of God.

If not, please explain why.

Thanks,

Rob

Computer (software / hardware) anology to the mind / matter problem

Or knowing what God in fact IS

As far as it goes, let us propose and assume here that we can make the analogy of how a computer works and how our minds versus matter works.
- Software is then the analogy for consciousness (mind);
- Hardware is then the anology for matter

In a computer we can store all kind of information. Although there are other (more sophistocated) storage and retrieval systems, one of the most used is that of a hierarchical directory structure.
A directory structure is defined as follows. A directory is just a name or label for a storage case where files of all possibe types can be stored; any directory can be a sub-directory of it's parent.
But in able to acces the directory structure, we have to assume or state something. In fact the directory structure needs a root, otherwise we could have in principle an infinite directory structure, without there being a entrance directory.
Computer systems are thus built that they have a main entrance, the root directory, to access the fysical storage system.
But we can also access information in the computer using virtual strorage / retrieval structures. For instance in the case we have several disk units (each having their own root) or gave access to a network, we must provide a new upper level for access.

On a windows computer, therefore we have a virtual entrance to all our fysical storage units in the form of a Desktop.
This level is virtual, since it isn't a fysical thing, although it is implemented as a directory on your boot disk (for example: C:\WINDOWS\DESKTOP).

For a mind, to have access to and perform the functions in consciousness, we also need a main entrance level. We need to assume something, or base ourselves on something.
This can be understood as that we have constructed axiomatic systems, that all need to take some basic assumptions, and be based on some fundamental axioms.
The axioms themselves are nothing but founding axioms, on which all of the formal system is built. The axiom itself can however not be reasoned about, within that particular belief system.
But as the mathematician Kurt Godel showed, no formal system can be complete and consistent at the same time. It means there are statements within the formal system of which the truth value is unkown.

Another anology between how consciousness works and how software works is that in order for a computer to function, it needs to know certain things. It needs some basic information to start the system, and to perform anything.
In computer jargon this is known as the boot operation. It starts with executing a procedure in the ROM BIOS, that then subsequently starts a boot program on the boot disk in the boot sector of the boot partition.
This performs some basic operations, which enables the computer and software that can run on the computer, to know how and where it can access the peripherals, it loads the necessary (OS dependend) device drivers, etc.

Consciousness needs also to have some basic knowledge, in order for it to know how it can 'trust' it's own awareness. It needs to know how to interpret certain input data.
There needs to be some hardcoded information in the brain, that enable us to verrify the truth of something.

How can we know for instance that we are not living an illusion, that there in fact is an objective reality which we have acces to through our sensory perceptions.
This is a very basic and fundamental philosophical issue, known as The Fundamental Question
How can we know that - in fact - there is an objective reality, and that this is not just an illusion created by our own minds?

The answer is: we can go into a self diagnosis, and verify the truth of all our knowledge and the truth about our sensory perceptions.

Such a self test / self diagnosis, is like making a radical assumption about reality, to verify the truth about reality itself.
We could for example assume that no such reality AT ALL exists, and then see where this assumption would lead to. It would lead to the fact that in last instance we have to acknowledge the fact that at least our mental activity itself exists (since we perceive of them), and that without there being an objective world, no such activity could exist either. This would urge us then to conclude that our initial assumption (reality itself, as everything which is outside and independend of our own mind) can not be true.

Wether we call this hardwired self test/ self diagnose procedure God, a fundamental postulate or just state that the material world itself can not fail to exist, is not much different, and they provide for us the same function: having a basic and fundamental postuale about reality itself.

It's our hardwired basic proposition about reality: we have to assume that reaility itself exists, and need to be able to verify that, and that is not something we can alter, since it is not LEARNT but is hardwired in our circuits.

If we can recognize and acknowledge this fundamental knowledge we have about the world and about our consciousness, most quarels and discussions between for example theism and atheism could be satisfactory solved.
We just have to get rid of the IDEA that this hardwired internal self verification thing, is something OUTSIDE of our own consciousness, but just part of our consciousness, and forms for that the basic layer. It's a basic proposition about reality itself, that enables us to verify and acknowledge the truth about reality.

Human culture through history has developed this into a form of religion, but in current days with current available knowledge we can see this in a different perspective and get rid of the human developed concepts itself, which have been added to this, and adresses the reality of this.

The conclusion of our self test are these:
- Reality itself can never fail to exist, since we can never assume we ourselves (our mental processes) do not exist.
- Our awareness about reality, are a truth knowable to us, which we can verify at the basis of this self test.
- This basic proposition we have about our consciousness and how it relates to the outside world, enables us to verify the truth of our awarenesses about the outer objective reality.

Or stated a bit differently:
- 'God' (the self test / self diagnose hardcoded in our brain) resides in our own mind, as the most basic level (comparable with a ROM BIOS procedure in the computer anology)
- 'God' creates our awareness, in the sense that it enables us to verify the truth of those awarenesses, and acknowledge the fact that an objective reality DOES in fact exist.
- It can however not be concluded that the awareness about reality and it's truth base, which are consolidated entirely within our own minds, have any relevanve to the outside objective world itself.
- 'God' did therefore not 'create' the outside world itself, only our inner perception and trust in the reality of it.
 
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