ECT Baptism

[HisServant]

Who said it did? So why are you misdirecting away from baptism of fire that you brought up?



At the time it was a ritual cleaning for the priesthood.



Baptism of fire and of the Holy Spirit are two different things. They are going to immersed in fire (tribulation). They will have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is power, to help them endure to the end. None of this applies to the Body of Christ of which you have stated emphatically you do not belong.

So your dispensationalist heresy has been exposed to daylight.

If you were ever baptized by the Holy Spirit you would understand that he puts you through the fire and bears all your sins before you before imparting his Holy Spirit on you.

It has nothing to do with your mythical and non-biblical tribulation.

 

[Nick M]

It has nothing to do with your mythical and non-biblical tribulation.

Matthew 24

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

 

[john w]

I believe our Lord gave us an example and we should follow it.

Walk on water, then. Raise the dead. Don't speak in tongues....Shall we go on?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You believe submission to water baptism fulfills righteousness?

Mat 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The baptism of Jesus by John was not a baptism of repentance.

Johns baptism was spiritually a red sea baptism but the baptism of Jesus by John was a spiritual crossing of Jordan and as Israel blew trumpets on the stronghold of Jericho, so did Jesus in His time.

(So has/will the entire Church -

Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;


LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

What righteousness does submission to water baptism provide that the believer's identification with Christ doesn't? Conversely, what righteousness will a believer lack if they refuse it?

Refusing water baptism is tantamount to refusing Christ,

and is like two lovers shacking up together instead of being honorable and being married before witnesses and family.

God will not bless it, unless they repent.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

LA

 

[john w]

Hello john,



I use the term 'Christian baptism' specifically to differentiate it from ritual washing of the old covenant. The two are not the same.

Peace!
PJ

You missed it...You asserted:


"Christian Baptism

ordered by Christ:

Mark 16:15-16
He said to them, "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Matt 28:19Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,"

The baptism you quoted in Mark/Matthew above, was not "Christian baptism"-it was straight out of the Old Covenant-Mark/Matthew=Old Covenant.

"ritual washing of the old covenant"=that was the baptisms of Mark/Matthew, and "early Acts"-right from the OC.


You have not studied this subject. Sit down.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Refusing water baptism is tantamount to refusing Christ,

and is like two lovers shacking up together instead of being honorable and being married before witnesses and family.

God will not bless it, unless they repent.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

LA

 

[vfirestormv]

Walk on water, then. Raise the dead. Don't speak in tongues....Shall we go on?

That is going a bit far don't you think? We are never told to walk on water and those other gifts were for signs during the early Church, which Paul, you know, did those things too. They have ceased, in that manner anyway. I know God is able and does miracles today, but not through the likes of a Benny Hinn or Countless other money hungry so called faith healers. The only gifts that we have today are faith, hope, charity and the greatest is charity (love). Baptism by water was done by the early church and by Paul and others, it was never in scripture said to cease. If so please show me the verse so I can say I am wrong.

 

[john w]

That is going a bit far don't you think? We are never told to walk on water and those other gifts were for signs during the early Church, which Paul, you know, did those things too. They have ceased, in that manner anyway. I know God is able and does miracles today, but not through the likes of a Benny Hinn or Countless other money hungry so called faith healers. The only gifts that we have today are faith, hope, charity and the greatest is charity (love). Baptism by water was done by the early church and by Paul and others, it was never in scripture said to cease. If so please show me the verse so I can say I am wrong.

Slower-that is not what you "argued:"

I believe our Lord gave us an example and we should follow it.


Walk on water, raise the dead, don't speak in tongues...

Or admit that your "argument" is not sound, or that you changed it.


"We are never told to walk on water and those other gifts were for signs during the early Church, which Paul, you know, did those things too. They have ceased, in that manner anyway. I know God is able and does miracles today, but not through the likes of a Benny Hinn or Countless other money hungry so called faith healers. The only gifts that we have today are faith, hope, charity and the greatest is charity (love)."-you

Misdirection, changing your argument:


I believe our Lord gave us an example and we should follow it.

 

[heir]

Refusing water baptism is tantamount to refusing Christ,

You're an idiot.

Why do you endevour to NOT keep the unity of the Spirit?

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Ephesians 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[john w]

Refusing water baptism is tantamount to refusing Christ,

Refusing to go to the temple, selling all you have, having all things in common, is tantamount to refusing Christ.


See how that works, Bel? Bel agrees that she refuses Christ, being the Christ rejector that we all know she is.

 

[vfirestormv]

Slower-that is not what you "argued:"

I believe our Lord gave us an example and we should follow it.


Walk on water, raise the dead, don't speak in tongues...

Or admit that your "argument" is not sound, or that you changed it.


"We are never told to walk on water and those other gifts were for signs during the early Church, which Paul, you know, did those things too. They have ceased, in that manner anyway. I know God is able and does miracles today, but not through the likes of a Benny Hinn or Countless other money hungry so called faith healers. The only gifts that we have today are faith, hope, charity and the greatest is charity (love)."-you

Misdirection, changing your argument:


B]I believe our Lord gave us an example and we should follow it[/B].

You are correct, that was not a solid argument at all. As what He done was to fulfill all righteousness.
So with that I recant that statement. Better said that He left us with many examples in the early Church to follow which we are never told to cease from doing. Again it is not for salvation it is not to keep salvation it is symbolic of what already happened to me the second I was saved. It is an outward showing to the world that I am dead with Him, Buried with Him and raised with Him.
So I do stand corrected by you on my point, but I will say, if you have not been baptized with water as an outward showing of what already happened to you, would you reconsider? That is not a question I am looking for you to answer to me, but rather to ponder.

 

[john w]

You are correct, that was not a solid argument at all. As what He done was to fulfill all righteousness.
So with that I recant that statement. Better said that He left us with many examples in the early Church to follow which we are never told to cease from doing. Again it is not for salvation it is not to keep salvation it is symbolic of what already happened to me the second I was saved.

Fair enough.

It is an outward showing to the world that I am dead with Him, Buried with Him and raised with Him..

Nowhere, in Romans-Philemon, is it referred to a a sign/symbol. And no one is "buried" in water.

So I do stand corrected by you on my point, but I will say, if you have not been baptized with water as an outward showing of what already happened to you, would you reconsider? That is not a question I am looking for you to answer to me, but rather to ponder.

.

No. How does being dunked in water, until the tadpoles know my social security, serve as a "sign"/testimony to others? Rhetorical Q. Nowhere, in Romans-Philemon, is it referred to a a sign. And no one is "buried" in water.

I'm moving on. You are beginning to bore me.

 

[HisServant]

You are correct, that was not a solid argument at all. As what He done was to fulfill all righteousness.
So with that I recant that statement. Better said that He left us with many examples in the early Church to follow which we are never told to cease from doing. Again it is not for salvation it is not to keep salvation it is symbolic of what already happened to me the second I was saved. It is an outward showing to the world that I am dead with Him, Buried with Him and raised with Him.
So I do stand corrected by you on my point, but I will say, if you have not been baptized with water as an outward showing of what already happened to you, would you reconsider? That is not a question I am looking for you to answer to me, but rather to ponder.

You know, I hear that 'explanation' all the time, especially from fundies, yet there is absolutely no biblical support for it. People seem to have that excuse drilled into them from a very young age and just accept it as the truth and never question it.

The real meaning of Baptism has to do with a substantial change in the properties of something.... the baptism you practice is only a temporary washing of worldly dirt and really has nothing to do with your spiritually.

I'll again bring up two examples of the word we translate in scripture of baptism in a different secular context and you will see what I mean.

1.) A blacksmith baptized a sword of wrought iron into water or oil thereby tempering it and fundamentally changing the properties of the iron, rendering it much stronger... there is a real physical change that occurred and it is permanent.

2.) A cook baptizing a cucumber into vinegar which changes the cucumber into a pickle... a fundamental change was made to the cucumber and it is now a pickle and can never again be a cucumber... again, this is a real physical change and is permanent.

The act of water baptism does not physically or spiritually change anyone permanently.. it does not transform someone into something they aren't already.

So when Christ and the Apostles talk about baptism... they are commanding people to be spiritually changed by the Holy Spirit PERMANENTLY... not a temporary washing of dirt and dust.

So next time you think about your churches ritual of water baptism... think to yourself.. does it really change an individual at all?... is this act of obedience permanent.. does it effect real change?.. or is it just an age old Jewish tradition of the mikvah which was adopted by the early church in ignorance and then perpetuated during the Romanization of the church (at which point it became a sacrament) and then was passed onto Protestantism.

If you are truly one of God's children you will be overcome with peace and realize what is really going on.

 

[vfirestormv]

You know, I hear that 'explanation' all the time, especially from fundies, yet there is absolutely no biblical support for it. People seem to have that excuse drilled into them from a very young age and just accept it as the truth and never question it.

What there is biblical support for is that The early church water baptized and Paul baptized a few and others baptized while with Paul. He says so himself. So where in the Bible does it say to no longer do it?

 

[heir]

vstorm doesn't know what he believes:

Look at the context of the passages, they are talking about the body of Christ, we all being baptized with the Holy Spirit, it is by that one Spirit we are all one body. and have been made to drink in one Spirit.

But in the sense you are talking, we are all baptized by Jesus.

It is saying that by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body.

There is one baptism that is essential, that is the baptism of the Holy Spirit

 

[HisServant]

What there is biblical support for is that The early church water baptized and Paul baptized a few and others baptized while with Paul. He says so himself. So where in the Bible does it say to no longer do it?

It also says that Paul stopped because it was causing divisions in the church... Paul was wise in seeing what it was being perverted into.

And in the same way, we see churches these days fighting over the manner of baptism (sprinkling, pouring and immersion).. each taking the attitude that theirs is superior over the other. There are some churches that will not even accept like baptisms from other churches... its insanity.

 

[PhilipJames]

Hello pj,

yes, water baptism sybolizes Jesus death and resurrection. once baptized we are dead to sin. dead in Christ, because Jesus defeated sin and death. we will be resurrected. ther is also baptism by Spirit and baptism by fire. washing away of sins also, of course:rain:

Christian baptism is by both water and Spirit. We must be careful not to see it as merely a symbol. for Baptism, through the power of the Holy Spirit, truly does that which it signifies.

Beware of those who hold a form of religion but deny its power. (2Tim 3:5)

Peace!
PJ

 

[vfirestormv]

It also says that Paul stopped because it was causing divisions in the church... Paul was wise in seeing what it was being perverted into.

And in the same way, we see churches these days fighting over the manner of baptism (sprinkling, pouring and immersion).. each taking the attitude that theirs is superior over the other. There are some churches that will not even accept like baptisms from other churches... its insanity.

I agree it has gotten perverted in many places. But the reason Paul didn't baptize anymore is because of his stature among the people and they were dividing over whom baptized whom, but he had other do it. He did not stop the baptizing.

 

[vfirestormv]

vstorm doesn't know what he believes:

Nice word game heir. Those are all the same one baptism, none of those have anything to do with water baptism. You like to find a word out of place rather than what someone is actually saying and twist it. Touche...