dodge
New member
Where do you go to church ? What is the name of it ?
Baptism of Water for Babies and Children
- Thread starter cgaviria
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Where do you go to church ? What is the name of it ?
dodge
New member
lol, I am a big boy go for it.
I am a messianic Jew, knowing the original doctrine of Jesus Christ and the apostles.
jsanford108
New member
None of these points has any biblical evidence to support it. In fact, it is quite the contrary.
If baptism is simply "a statement of faith," then it is without use. That makes it akin to the Pharisee standing on a corner showing his fasting.
How is immersion a step of obedience? It does not say that Christ was immersed in the Scriptures. He never commanded it. How is this conclusion drawn biblically?
How does the method of infant baptism disagree with the Bible? Where does it state the method we are to use? Or the age to baptize? There are no explicit records of infants being baptized, yet we read in Acts that "whole household were baptized." Is an infant not part of the household? Thus, saying infant baptism is "unBiblical" is false and not based in fact.
Furthermore, the exact methods of baptism are never stated either. So claiming that infant baptism is unbiblical is even more untruthful. Also, keep in perspective that the people of the New Testament are desert people. They value water. It would be seen as wasteful to pour a baptismal bath for every person to be immersed in. Also, the Jews practice (an archaic practice) sprinkling baptisms.
How is infant baptism being viewed as "New Covenant circumcision" unbiblical? It is explicitly stated as such in the Letters. And if memory serves, in Acts as well.
Lastly, where in Scripture does it say that one must believe in Christ first to be baptized? Once again, there is no biblical evidence to support this claim.
All of the points that make up the final summarizing paragraph have been addressed. All of my questions are either a charge for biblical evidence and proof, or rhetorical (those are evident and utilized to illustrate statements of falsehood).
I do thank you for this post, however, if you are unable to defend it adequately, the one should reconsider posting it. And if it aligns with one's current doctrine, question how it has become doctrine. I assure you, the statement from gotquestions is unresearched, biased, and completely unsupported biblically. (I have viewed their site many times, and posed my own questions to them; thus far I have not been given one piece of biblical evidence to support the positions I questioned).
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dodge
New member
If you knew the doctrines of Jesus you would know that Jesus taught a literal hell and eternal punishment for those that reject God.
You would also know that baptizing babies is NOT scriptural.
It is not what we philosophize or think it is about what God says on the subject, and scripture does not teach infant baptism.
Hell is indeed literal, hence why I affirmed people will be thrown into it. What it is not, however, a place for the wicked to be tormented eternally. This is a false doctrine and contradicts many prophecies stating that those thrown into this fire will die and be destroyed. The wicked will suffer a very painful being burned alive, but will end with their death and destruction. Hence why there will be dead bodies in this fire, and that the wicked will be turned to ashes once they are completely consumed. You are so seared shut in the lies you've been taught, that even when showing you plain scripture demonstrating your error you still refuse to believe. You are in serious trouble, for if you'd don't understand plain matters such as this, neither will you understand greater matters.
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dodge
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You said you are a Messianic Jew How long have you been a follower of Jesus ?
There are quite a few verses like the ones below:
1. Undying Worm and Unquenchable Fire (OT)
Isaiah 66:22-24
For as the new heavens and the new earth
that I make
shall remain before me, says the LORD,
so shall your offspring and your name remain.
From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
declares the LORD.
And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.
2. Everlasting Life/Everlasting Contempt
Daniel 12:1-2
At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3. Eternal Fire/The Fire of Hell
Matthew 18:6-9
Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
4. Eternal Punishment/Eternal Life
Matthew 25:31-46
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.or...tional-verses-for-eternal-punishment-in-hell/
The Greek word "aionos" does not mean "eternal", for its root word "aion" means "age" or "eon", which is a definite period of time with beginning and end, usually in the thousands of years, hence,
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12:32 [NIV])
Obviously if this had been translated as "this eternity or the eternity to come" it would make no sense. As such, the adjective form of "aion", which is "aionos" means "lasting for eons, or lasting a very long time". As such, the correct rendering of the Greek word "aionos" into English is eonian or eonial (I prefer using this word because it flows from the tongue better and can be used as an adverb much easier). As such, passages such as this have clearer meaning,
May the blessings of your father surpass the blessings of the ancient mountains, reaching to the heights of the eternal hills. May these blessings rest on the head of Joseph, who is a prince among his brothers. (Genesis 49:26 [NLT])
Hills are not eternal, they are eonial. Meaning that they last a very long time. The fire of Gehenna is eonial, because it burns for a very long time, for around a thousand years until the time of the new heaven and new earth. Eonial life also lasts for a very long time, but because we know separately that whoever is granted eonial life will never die, then eonial life can be implied to also mean "eternal" life, but the original language does not convey the concept of "eternal" as the English language does, but rather, the original language conveys the concept of "eons of eons" to mean a continuum of eons upon eons that have not yet been revealed to man.
dodge
New member
Scriptural hell was not created for man but Satan and those that rebelled against God with him.
Everyone has a spiritual father those that do not follow God follow Satan.
Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Looks like forever and ever is eternity to me.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Greetings jsanford,
We do know that before a person could be baptized with water that person must first believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:
"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).
Did you still not understand that "aionos" does not mean eternal? This is the correct translation,
And the devil, the one misleading them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet are. And they shall be tormented day and night into the eons of the eons. (Revelation of John 20:10 [ABP])
Meaning that this torment will last until the time of the "eons of the eons", which commences at the new heaven and new earth. Not only that, but this verse also has a symbolic meaning, for the "beast", and the "false prophet" are symbols for,
"Beast" symbolizes the final United States of Europe as the 8th head that is thrown into the fire.
"False prophet" symbolizes the United States of America that is thrown into the fire.
When these two entities are thrown into the fire, it implies that all the people for these two nations will be thrown into the fire, millions upon millions of people. This is why the torment of these two nations is "day and night", because day and night, as each person is judged before the elect, they will be thrown into the fire to suffer torment and to die.
Even the "devil" being thrown into the fire is a symbol for not only Satan being thrown into the fire, but also his angels, which again, will result in a torment that is "day and night" for the symbol of the devil, for there are myriads upon myriads of angels that will each be judged and thrown into the fire day and night to suffer torment and to die.
Do you still not understand? The doctrine of "eternal torment" is originally a pagan teaching, which was promulgated by the Roman catholic church, and is still upheld by most of the Protestant churches. But this it not a teaching of scripture. Although God is severe and has already predestined who he is going to condemn to hell, his anger does not outlast or last as long as his mercy, but rather, his anger is but for a moment, but his mercy endures always. Whoever teaches that God will condemn people to suffer torment for an eternity has no understanding of God. Stop being stubborn and learn from those who are wise and attempting to instruct you in the correct doctrine of Jesus Christ.
dodge
New member
I have a question ! We know based on what Jesus taught that when the rich man and Lazarus died their bodies were in the grave and yet their "souls" were not. The rich man asked Abraham to allow Lazarus to dip his finger in water and touch his tongue because he was tormented in the flames.
The question: Do you not believe and based on scripture that we never die ?
The reason there is a 2nd death, which does not mean cease to exist, is because they who reject God and His salvation are separated from Him forever.
Scripture is clear that to be a child of God one must be born again from above, and if one is not born again from above ( spiritual birth ) they then die twice. Physical death and then spiritual death, which is eternal separation from God.
I have no clue how long the rich man has been in hell but it has been at least 2000 years and that does not sound like the existence of hell is temporary. If God sent the rich man to a place of torment would you not believe that from the beginning that the people who rejected God are in the same place, and that would mean many many millions if not billions and trillions of people that rejected God have been there at least 6000 years ?
jsanford108
New member
This further demonstrates my point. The eunuch already believed in Christ, so why be baptized? If it is just a "show of faith," then he would need not worry. In verses before, the eunuch believed in Christ, so Phillip's statement here is not one of evidence, but of rhetoric.
Also, why would the eunuch need to believe? The answer is because otherwise baptism would be pointless (by common Protestant doctrine). The faith of the eunuch saved him. Once again, this begs the question, why be baptized?
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The passage of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable, which is part of a series of parables that immediately precede it, hence,
And he said also to his disciples, A certain man was rich, who had a manager; and this one was accused by him as wasting his possessions. (Luke 16:1 [ABP])
And this other preceding parable,
And he said, A certain man had two sons. (Luke 15:11 [ABP])
The passage of the rich man and Lazarus begins in the same style of the parables that immediately precede it,
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. (Luke 16:19 [NIV])
As such, this passage will not contradict other passages that indicate the state of the dead, which is,
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. (Ecclesiastes 9:10 [ESV])
Because the dead do not have thoughts, since the dead are not conscious. As such, there is an interpretation to be drawn forth from the passage of the rich man and Lazarus, as with any other parable. I have a study on the interpretation here http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2016/10/02/the-interpretation-of-the-rich-man-and-lazarus-parable/ .
dodge
New member
The resurrected Christ told folks to be baptized , and that is all the reason most folks need.
Mat 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
dodge
New member
Why do folks do that do you feel you need to dismiss Jesus' teachings? That is NOT a parable NO parable has a persons name in it. Abraham,Lazarus, and the rich man were and are real people that Jesus described.
You have it wrong Jesus related what happened to real people as in using the name of ABRAHAM AND LAZARUS.
Again NO parable uses a proper name NONE.
)
Jesus described the actual state of the deceased and it is dismissed by hiding it behind and in a parable ? That is a fail.
Well Lazarus and the rich guy had thoughts, desires and feelings as in the rich man wanted Abraham to go to his lost brothers so they would not go to the place he was in ,and the rich man described his anguish and pain.
Based on your beliefs Jesus is a liar and story teller.
FYI, Jesus also mentioned Abraham and what Abraham said to the condemned rich man.
Do you believe Jesus was just killing time passing stories that weren't actually what was happening or had happened ?
There are NO parables with a proper name in them. What Jesus told had 2 proper names in it not just one Abraham and Lazarus. I will stay with what Jesus taught.
jsanford108
New member
I am not saying baptism is pointless, in any man or or capacity. What I am illustrating, time and again, throughout this thread is that all claims and "evidence" against infant baptism is unfounded and false.
In my demonstration, I also highlight biblical and logical factors against commonly preached doctrines that contradict infant baptism, such as "one must be able to believe before baptism." These factors aid in showing how one should be critical of all beliefs, not just those they have predispositions against.
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