Atonement without blood according to Freelight.

[freelight]

Changing our minds....................

Changing our minds....................

True in walk and personal relationship with the Father and His Son, (the Word), and those who follow the Father and His Son, (the Word). But not so true in internet forum politics where people think they have the right to assassinate the character of someone else they do not know and have never met simply to "win" an argument. Character assassination is tantamount to murder in the doctrine of the Master because it is hate, (which is why he says that murders proceed from the heart and come forth from the mouth, Matthew 15:18-20, as quoted above), and likewise therefore whosoever hates his brother is a murderer, and we know that no murderer has eternal life dwelling in him, (1John 3:15). If therefore one is going to assume the right to judge others, in violation of the commandments of Messiah, the same should not be surprised to find that judgment meted right back out to them because our judgment really means nothing in the overall scheme of things anyway, (except in the better way, when we judge our own selves). However, in this case, it was clearly on-topic because what has transpired shows that the atonement theory of LA is neither efficacious nor advantageous.

:thumb:

word!

This is so true. I even have to watch myself sometimes lest I fall in my lower nature to engage in a reaction or ego-reflex to offend or project in a way that is NOT coming from love, which forces you to pause...and reflect...to see what's going on within,...and to transmute or diffuse that with love, and letting the Spirit lead and guide. We are judged by every word that proceeds from our heart and soul. All stands naked before the heavenly courts, since nothing escapes the omnipresence of Elohim.

Well,....we've shared some Jewish videos and views of atonement, and will continue, plus I've linked the UB view of blood atonement as well here. Here is another from a Karaite Jewish brother, he gives many passages anyone can look up on the Tanakh's teaching on atonement. It still stands, and heralded by the prophets.....REPENTANCE is the way. This does not discount that some sins were atoned for via blood sacrifice (NOT ALL) in the OT, neither does it discount any meaningful symbolism or value in such symbolism, but these are to be understood figuratively, and they avail nothing unless we undergo genuine change or transformation within, affecting a true return to 'God'.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Now you are pretending to believe the same way Freelight, myself, and others believe to suit the momentary deficiency in your doctrine. You' re all over the board, all over the place, shifting with the wind, and you are everything you accuse me and others of being when you cannot defend your arguments. When it comes down to it you cannot explain what you believe from the scripture and when called upon to do so you start calling people names like nutter, spiritualist, and spiritist. I've already heard it all and you're nothing but another poor lost soul and a liar.

Calling me a liar for trying to get you to acknowledge the great benefit to mankind of the blood of Christ, which you try to avoid, just makes you look silly.

You are a nutter to suggest that anyone is speaking of the blood that fell upon the ground being applied literally today like a compress on a wound.

If you put Because in front of it them you would have it.

You and freelight say that Christs blood did not have to be shed in order that it could be legal to eat of the tree of life.

Dagg, Freelight, Marhig, all say one could partake of eternal life, regardless of Christ shedding His blood, before and after.

You do not read properly, then you blame someone else for your incompetence.



LA

 

[daqq]

Calling me a liar for trying to get you to acknowledge the great benefit to mankind of the blood of Christ, which you try to avoid, just makes you look silly.

You are a nutter to suggest that anyone is speaking of the blood that fell upon the ground being applied literally today like a compress on a wound.

If you put Because in front of it them you would have it.

You and freelight say that Christs blood did not have to be shed in order that it could be legal to eat of the tree of life.

Dagg, Freelight, Marhig, all say one could partake of eternal life, regardless of Christ shedding His blood, before and after.

You do not read properly, then you blame someone else for your incompetence.



LA

Again, you are lying: I have never said what you say I said, (which I have bolded in red).
In fact I already told you of the shedding of his blood and you did not respond.
Your theory ignores the actual work of Messiah in preaching the Word.
Without that Word you have no atonement.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

1) However your conscience is clearly defiled and it is on display here for all to see by your own words, and your conscience is defiled because your atonement theory is bogus: and rather than resulting in a cleansed, purged, and atoned conscience, your atonement theory results in the searing and ignoring of your own conscience while you sin all the more because you imagine yourself to have a free pass to continue walking as you always did before you ever supposedly entered into the faith in Messiah.
:

You make up words for which you will be held accountable for, because they are false.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Whenever I spoke to Marhig about this, and she suggested that I was saying the blood of Christ was used in a carnal way instead of how the effect of the shedding of the blood was applied in our time.

You and freelight agreed with her that the blood of Christ is not necessary, nor that it was ever necessary for anything.

If that is not your position then it certainly is the position of freelight who is a spiritualist who discounts the Bible as being Gods own personal word on all matters.

You have agreed with the position of Freelight who denies this--

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

LA

 

[daqq]

:thumb:

word!

This is so true. I even have to watch myself sometimes lest I fall in my lower nature to engage in a reaction or ego-reflex to offend or project in a way that is NOT coming from love, which forces you to pause...and reflect...to see what's going on within,...and to transmute or diffuse that with love, and letting the Spirit lead and guide. We are judged by every word that proceeds from our heart and soul. All stands naked before the heavenly courts, since nothing escapes the omnipresence of Elohim.

Well,....we've shared some Jewish videos and views of atonement, and will continue, plus I've linked the UB view of blood atonement as well here. Here is another from a Karaite Jewish brother, he gives many passages anyone can look up on the Tanakh's teaching on atonement. It still stands, and heralded by the prophets.....REPENTANCE is the way. This does not discount that some sins were atoned for via blood sacrifice (NOT ALL) in the OT, neither does it discount any meaningful symbolism or value in such symbolism, but these are to be understood figuratively, and they avail nothing unless we undergo genuine change or transformation within, affecting a true return to 'God'.

He also does not understand the symbolic shedding of blood in NT terms. The parting asunder of your own soul according to the doctrines and teachings of Messiah, (laying down your own ego and self-will), is the shedding of your own theoretical blood in the eyes of the Father: otherwise people like LA need to start literally cutting off their hands and feet and plucking out their eyes if they wish to keep the commandments of the Master. And if he ever returns in the way that LA believes and preaches all the time, then LA is going to have to eat his resurrected flesh to keep his commandments and live because his words are never going to pass away. That is why he makes things so easy to understand, a typical Rabbi type tactic in discourse: make it so outrageous that your talmidim and others hearing will know that you speak in symbolism with supernal and spiritual meaning. The Testimony of Messiah is Spirit and Life: we are all made to DRINK into that one and same Spirit if we are talmidim of Messiah, (according to Paul, 1Cor 12:13).

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Again, you are lying: I have never said what you say I said, (which I have bolded in red).
In fact I already told you of the shedding of his blood and you did not respond.
Your theory ignores the actual work of Messiah in preaching the Word.
Without that Word you have no atonement.

Then you should not have given approval to his posts which are clearly the position of Judaism, that of Christ deniers.

and the preaching of the word is of no value (effect) without the shed blood of Christ.

LA

 

[marhig]

You are stupid.

No one suggested that.



You have replaced the death of Christ with your self effort to follow Christ.

The veil was rent from top to bottom at Christs death, not pre-cross.



Well when you stand before God to give an account you might explain how Christ;s death did nothing to save man.

LA

Can you show me where it says that Jesus died on the cross to save you? I'm those words.

Because from what I've read it clearly says in the Bible that we are saved by the grace of God through faith and that we are saved by his life. But I've never seen it written that we are saved by his death on the cross? In those words?

 

[freelight]

Eucharistic communion...............

Eucharistic communion...............

Then you should not have given approval to his posts which are clearly the position of Judaism, that of Christ deniers.

and the preaching of the word is of no value (effect) without the shed blood of Christ.

LA

Yet if Jesus was a true blue orthodox Jew,...and it appears he was as the gospels portray him, he would have known and apparently did by his quotations of certain passages, that God desires mercy and NOT sacrifice. - he also upset the business of the merchants in the temple selling their goods, and said, "My father's house shall be a house of prayer!". In fact Jesus also bears some similarities and affiliation with the Essene school, which later rejected the temple sacrifice system and her priesthood as they tended towards corruption and manipulation of power, holding a much more humane and even vegetarian diet, recognizing the true sacrifices of God being 'spiritual' and offered up by the soul, and within the soul.

You will also find that symbolism of Jesus blood also corresponds to the blood of the grape(vine), its juice, and bread is a symbol of grain, the harvest....so all of these can allude to the natural life-giving nourishment and substance provided for by 'God' (Nature),...yet these are interpreted spiritually. The taking in of all that is provided by the LORD is the key, whereby 'communion' is had, a 'taking in' of the elements, a breathing in of His Spirit, a thanksgiving meal, a 'Eucharist' celebration, a 're-membering' (rejoining all members back into 'God'). There is much symbology here

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

how do you read them? IOW, whats your point?

I'm not sure I can utter that as well as Paul.

It would appear that even sons being brought to glory need a high priest.

Christ paid the price once and for all.

He was completely perfected with that last sacrifice, not to say that his whole life wasn't a sacrifice.

God's wisdom is manifold, and my carburetor get's gunked up sometimes.

 

[marhig]

None could partake of eternal life until after the cross.

Jesus was speaking of what would occur after the cross when He had said--

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Joh 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Why the flaming sword, Mary?

Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


LA

If you think that none of the prophets or Gods people had the Holy Spirit before Jesus, you'd be very wrong. The difference is, Jesus was dead to his flesh and he didn't sin and he was full of the power of the Spirit, so we saw the fullness God in him bodily. He was fully anointed of God, he was the Messiah, and every word he spoke came from God because he always did what pleased the father. He is his beloved son in whom the father is well pleased. All others have sinned! But that doesn't mean that they never had the Holy Spirit.

Also, the Holy Spirit is the inheritance of the eternal life within, that we receive, once we are born of God!

And I'm thinking the you're seeing eternal life as eternal salvation? If that is so, how did Moses and Elijah talk to Jesus in the transfiguration if they weren't with God and alive? And how did John the Baptist have the Spirit of Elijah, if Elijah hadn't entered into eternal life with God? And there are many that had the Holy Spirit in the OT, God is the God of the living not a God of the dead, so all that are living in him go to him after death. As it says in Ecclesiastes 12:7, then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the Spirit shall return into God who gave it.

Exodus 31

"I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship

Exodus 35

"And He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding and in knowledge and in all craftsmanship;

Psalm 51

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Micah 3

On the other hand I am filled with power-- With the Spirit of the LORD-- And with justice and courage To make known to Jacob his rebellious act, Even to Israel his sin.

Isaiah 61

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me;
because the Lord hath anointed me
to preach good tidings unto the meek

2 chronicles 15

And the Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded:

1 Samuel 15

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul

The Holy Spirit was in those of the old testament

And Christ was in the prophets

1 Peter 1

Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow

Also, as regarding the flaming sword that turns every way, how do you see that?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Psalm 51

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Lord, please squirt me some more a that holy gummout that unsticks my choke.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Yet if Jesus was a true blue orthodox Jew,...and it appears he was as the gospels portray him, he would have known and apparently did by his quotations of certain passages, that God desires mercy and NOT sacrifice. - he also upset the business of the merchants in the temple selling their goods, and said, "My father's house shall be a house of prayer!". In fact Jesus also bears some similarities and affiliation with the Essene school, which later rejected the temple sacrifice system and her priesthood as they tended towards corruption and manipulation of power, holding a much more humane and even vegetarian diet, recognizing the true sacrifices of God being 'spiritual' and offered up by the soul, and within the soul.

You will also find that symbolism of Jesus blood also corresponds to the blood of the grape(vine), its juice, and bread is a symbol of grain, the harvest....so all of these can allude to the natural life-giving nourishment and substance provided for by 'God' (Nature),...yet these are interpreted spiritually. The taking in of all that is provided by the LORD is the key, whereby 'communion' is had, a 'taking in' of the elements, a breathing in of His Spirit, a thanksgiving meal, a 'Eucharist' celebration, a 're-membering' (rejoining all members back into 'God'). There is much symbology here

You have no right, and you can not, eat of the Holy things unless you have faith in the blood of the new covenant.

Jews like to try that but they remain the old creatures they always were, and you endorse their teachings in posting their videos because they have the same position as yourself.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Can you show me where it says that Jesus died on the cross to save you? I'm those words.

Because from what I've read it clearly says in the Bible that we are saved by the grace of God through faith and that we are saved by his life. But I've never seen it written that we are saved by his death on the cross? In those words?

Christ;s death paid the legal price for the sins of the whole world, but only those who have faith in that price paid will receive any benefit.

and the forgiveness of sins, is not the same as Christ paying the price of sin which Adam bought on the whole human race.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

LA

 

[marhig]

Lord, please squirt me some more a that holy gummout that unsticks my choke.

What are you talking about?

 

[marhig]

Christ;s death paid the legal price for the sins of the whole world, but only those who have faith in that price paid will receive any benefit.

and the forgiveness of sins, is not the same as Christ paying the price of sin which Adam bought on the whole human race.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

LA

See again your quoting verses about his blood again, the blood isn't to do with Jesus being naturally crucified! And still you haven't showed me where it says that we are saved by the death of Jesus on the cross, in those words?

It clearly says that we are saved by the grace of God through faith and that we are saved by the life of Jesus!

I believe in the blood of Christ, I just don't see it as you do!

And where does it say this in the Bible....Christ;s death paid the legal price for the sins.

And what do you think it means to be buried with him in his death?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

What are you talking about?

My V-8 engine.

As opposed to EE and Lon's 3 cylinder job.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

See again your quoting verses about his blood again, the blood isn't to do with Jesus being naturally crucified! And still you haven't showed me where it says that we are saved by the death of Jesus on the cross, in those words?

It clearly says that we are saved by the grace of God through faith and that we are saved by the life of Jesus!

I believe in the blood of Christ, I just don't see it as you do!

And where does it say this in the Bible....Christ;s death paid the legal price for the sins.

And what do you think it means to be buried with him in his death?

Ask Dagg.

LA

 

[marhig]

Ask Dagg.

LA

Why ask Daqq? I'm asking regarding what you are saying, not Daqq?

 

[daqq]

Why ask Daqq? I'm asking regarding what you are saying, not Daqq?

Good reply, and thank you for spelling my name correctly.

 

[Caino]

The changeless God has always been forgiving. In the original gospel, salvation was by faith and forgiveness was by a change of heart. If the Jews would have accepted the gospel of Jesus, he would have relinquished his mortal body and returned home. No legal mumbo jumbo about sin debt and paying a price. We are children of God not cattle �� mooooooo!