Atonement without blood according to Freelight.

[Lazy afternoon]

Ummmm what about Moses? What about the prophets? Didn't they have the holy spirit? Why do you think that people in the old testament didn't have the holy spirit? Jesus said to the rich young ruler, obey the commandments and live! The trouble is they many weren't obeying the commandments and living right before God, Jesus came as an example so that we have no excuse. He came and showed us the way.

LA the blood is spiritual just like Jesus and his apostles speak about the seed, and water, trees, clouds, all in the spirit. As you see we can't drink the natural blood of Jesus so Jesus is speaking in the spirit! How can natural blood save LA? The blood that saves is the life of Christ in me and you! Why would God need a human sacrifice to atone for our sins? He's not a Mayan God, he's the God of love. Jesus Christ sacrificed his whole life to bring us a new and living way. And if your think he didn't suffer you'd be very wrong he suffered in all ways to bare witness to the truth, why do you think Paul says that we are to partake in the sufferings of Christ if Christ didn't suffer only when he was crucified?

And why can't people see that wicked men killed Jesus, why on earth would God be a part of that? The cruel merciless killing of his innocent son. People are blinded by flesh and can't see the spiritual and won't see it until God opens their eyes. I've even heard people say that God was in the pharasees who murdered Jesus, that's how warped our flesh is, when we make things up like this to suit doctrines. Jesus even said that they were doing the works of their father the devil by trying to kill him!

Jesus said in John 7 and 8 that it was wrong to kill him, even saying that they are going against the laws of Moses. So it was wrong before God to kill Jesus. It wasn't a good and holy thing in any way whatsoever!

And Paul said this

1 Corinthians 2

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Peter in acts 2

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

And Peter again in acts 3

But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Again he says in acts 5

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree

They don't glorify the cross, they treat it as a murder weapon to kill the holy son of the living God, and they say that what they did to Jesus was wrong!

I know that Jesus had to go through whatever was set before him, and I know that he had to fulfill the prophesies, and he did this, he did what Adam couldn't do, he resisted Satan and he overcame him and never sinned, leaving us a perfect example, he showed us a new and living way, he is the way, the truth and the life, he is the only way back to God.

The death on the cross didn't save us, his life does and we are to follow him and his teachings.

Why would they speak like that if Jesus' death was to save us?

And how can we be saved by the grace of God through faith and the death on the cross? That doesn't make sense. And Jesus was saving before he was crucified, he didn't need to be crucified to save anyone!

And to show you that the blood isn't his natural blood, I have a verse for you. Can you tell me what you believe this means?

Hebrews 12

KJV

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

NIV

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

Do you believe that Paul is talking about natural blood? Thanks

I'll be out all day today, so I'll answer any more when I can

Answers--


Moses was not a temple of the Holy spirit.

None could be until Christ died and was resurrected. Eph ch 2.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

And if no one has ever seen or beheld Elohim at any time then neither has anyone ever seen or beheld the blood of Elohim at any time, no matter how one decides to understand Acts 20:28, for the blood of our covenant is Spirit.
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It just means the new covenant could not be put in place until Christ shed His blood.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

LA

 

[marhig]

Answers--


Moses was not a temple of the Holy spirit.

None could be until Christ died and was resurrected. Eph ch 2.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

LA

Moses was full of the Holy Spirit, what do you think was in him? It says in the Bible that Christ was in the prophets? And Paul said that our foundation is the apostles and the prophets, how can they be our foundation if they didn't have the Spirit of God and have Christ manifest within them? To be our foundation, Christ has to have been with them because he is the cornerstone of us all, he is the rock of all of those who belong to God!

And what has any of your post above got to do with Jesus dying on a cross to save anyone? Are you saying God crucified him because it pleased him to bruise him? Because it doesn't mean that at all. God wasn't pleased that those who were supposed to love him killed Jesus by crucifying him, have read the parable of the wicked vinedressers? What did it say that God would do to those who rejected and killed his son? He would cast them out and bring in others. These are the Jews and the gentiles, God wanted the Jewish leaders to reverence Jesus not kill him!

Matthew 21

Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out.his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Jesus was willing for it he suffered whatever was set before him including crucifixion, because he had to suffer whatever he went through and not sin and overcome Satan showing us the true way to overcome evil with good, and he won Satan on his own ground, and he overcame the world because he never sinned, whatever Satan did to him didn't work, Jesus overcame him and God gave him power to do so and the father never left him because Jesus always did what pleased him.

Also, Jesus said father forgive them, if it was such a good thing, why the need for God to forgive them? They must have been sinning to need forgiveness? But what God was pleased for, is that Jesus was willing to go through the the suffering to bare witness to the truth. And he suffered every day, it says in Isaiah 52 that he was more marred than any man, so being tempted he denied himself and suffered, he suffered persecution and rejection from those who should have loved him, and he also suffered the death on the cross and overcame Satan and the world! But that doesn't save anyone. Life saves not death! We are saved by the grace of God through faith, faith in the father and his holy son! The only death God wants to see is the death of our old life in the flesh.

And how can we be saved by the grace of God through faith, and then also by the cross? Which one is the one that saves? How can natural blood save us? And It was satan through wicked men that crucified Jesus not God, so how can Satan through wicked men crucifying Jesus save us? It's not true, we are saved through his life, firstly by believing in him through faith, and by the grace of God we are saved from our past sins and old life, and then by his life manifest within us by the Spirit. God has blessed those born of him with the Holy Spirit helping us to overcome daily through Christ. Our old man should be gone and we should be born anew, walking in the spirit and dying daily to the lusts our flesh, denying them through Christ who is the author and finisher of our faith, our perfect example!

And what about that verse in Hebrews 12? Saying you have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin? How can they have resisted unto blood to strive against sin? Do you know what he means?

 

[daqq]

It just means the new covenant could not be put in place until Christ shed His blood.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

LA

"It just means the new covenant could not be put in place until Christ shed His blood."

Amen, and Messiah did so all throughout the Gospel accounts: he would shed more of his blood, and they would call him names and accuse him of having an unclean spirit. Funny how some things never change.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Moses was full of the Holy Spirit, what do you think was in him? It says in the Bible that Christ was in the prophets? And Paul said that our foundation is the apostles and the prophets, how can they be our foundation if they didn't have the Spirit of God and have Christ manifest within them? To be our foundation, Christ has to have been with them because he is the cornerstone of us all, he is the rock of all of those who belong to God!

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

And what has any of your post above got to do with Jesus dying on a cross to save anyone? Are you saying God crucified him because it pleased him to bruise him? Because it doesn't mean that at all. God wasn't pleased that those who were supposed to love him killed Jesus by crucifying him, have read the parable of the wicked vinedressers? What did it say that God would do to those who rejected and killed his son? He would cast them out and bring in others. These are the Jews and the gentiles, God wanted the Jewish leaders to reverence Jesus not kill him!

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

LA

 

[marhig]

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.






1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

LA

Look at Hebrews 9:14 that you have quoted, how can this be the natural blood on the cross?

Do you know about death to self? Are you taught that in your church. I'm asking because some churches don't teach that we have to die the death to live before God. Do you believe and know about that?

Jesus said that God gave him power over all flesh, and God did so by the power of the spirit.

Look what Peter is saying here about Jesus, can you see?

1 Peter 3

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Christ Jesus was put to death in his flesh as quickened by the spirit this happened in his lifetime.

Look

Ephesians 2

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Acts 2

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

But the difference between us and Jesus is that we are sinners, he came into this sinful flesh willingly to bare witness to the truth and bring as many back to God as he could by the word, through preaching the gospel, and he had never sinned. He was becoming stronger in the spirit from a child, being born of God in the womb, he had the Spirit from the beginning and he denied sin to do Gods will, we have turn from sin and obey God and do his will and fight our flesh, and be put to death by the spirit, to be born of God. And Jesus Christ came and showed us the way! A new a living way!

He grew strong in God even as a child, and we know that he was already doing Gods will at the age of 12!

Luke 2
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.

And further down the chapter

And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.*And he said unto them, ,How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?*

Jesus was always about his father's business, he always did what pleased him, and he always lived by the will of God.

Also, it says in the Bible that Jesus came by water and by blood, this is coming with the word of God and living it out and denying sin. Can't you see it's not the natural blood on the cross?

And look at the scriptures that you have quoted

1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would NOT have crucified the Lord of glory

Why would Paul even say this if Jesus died on the cross to save us? He's saying it was wrong to crucify Jesus. Not good and holy... But wrong!

As for Hebrews 12:2.

And so are we to endure our cross, Jesus said deny yourself take up your cross and follow me.

Do we have to be crucified?

And he also said those who endure to the end the same shall be saved! So we are to endure our cross and follow Jesus to the end, Jesus says that those who don't take up their cross are not worthy of him. This isn't the natural wooden cross!

And Isaiah 53:10, why do you think this means the death on the cross? And as I was saying earlier, Jesus suffered through his life and God was pleased because he bore witness to the truth and suffered persecution for it. And I don't know why you think that making his soul as offering for sin is dying on the cross? He was willing to come into sinful flesh and lay down his life to do Gods will, he who knew no sin, to bare witness to the truth. I believe that we are here because we have sinned and now to eat again off the tree of Life we must die to our flesh and do the will of God, but Jesus never sinned but came here anyway, he came willingly, sent by God and he was our perfect example and showed us a new and living way way. He is the way, the truth and the life and he is the only way back to God. But it is his life that saves not his death. The only death that God wants to see the the death to our flesh.

Do you honestly believe in your heart LA that a loving God would send his son to be a human sacrifice to save us? We are saved by the grace of God through faith! We are saved by life not death. We are saved from our past sins by believing in him and having faith, and then once we are born of God, we are saved daily by the Spirit, we are then raised with Christ who by the grace of God is changing our hearts and cleansing us so that we are becoming more like Christ daily and being covered in his blood his righteousness is seen through us. This what God wants to see, he wants to see his son in and through us, he wants to see our old man gone and for us to be born anew by the Spirit into the image of his incorruptible son, mortality swallowed up by life, as Christ by the Spirit strengthens us to overcome our flesh bringing us from death to life, from darkness into light.

There would be absolutely no point in God sending Jesus with the whole purpose being to die on the cross, that make his life and gospel void. That's what many mainstream Christians teach and it's not the truth. All as they talk about is the cross, and death they are full of death. But God is a living God and Jesus Christ came with life he is the life and he preached the ministry of reconciliation, being completely dead to his flesh he did his father's will and God was in him reconciling the world into himself, we didn't see the flesh of Jesus that was gone, he had laid down his life and he was dead and buried. We saw the Christ, the son of the living God baring witness to the truth and being in Gods express image he was Emmanuel (God with us) because that is who we saw through Jesus, the fullness of God bodily living and walking among us in his son. He only ever spoke what the father gave him to speak, he was a bright and shining light and as we walk in the light, we bare witness turn the truth, bringing the light of Christ to others.

Now through Christ, God is with us by his Spirit when we are dead to this flesh and living by his will, his Spirit is walking teaching and guiding us daily, the more we partake in Christ's sufferings, the more our old man dies and the stronger we become in God. And the stronger we become in God, the more that Christ is manifest in our flesh and we are then at one with God and Christ!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Look at Hebrews 9:14 that you have quoted, how can this be the natural blood on the cross?

The Lord gives understanding to His words which are not apparent to the casual reader, so they go off thinking the blood itself has some kind of magic power or something.

The blood of Christ cleanses from all sin.

Only a nit wit would think it refers to the liquid itself.

The truths of the NT are hidden in the OT and should be read in conjunction with the OT, which required explanation of their meaning by men of understanding from God.

but the truth still stands that it pleased God to bruise Him, and His righteous soul was made an offering for sin.

It does not say for sins.

At no time before Christ's death on the cross was His righteous soul made an offering for sin.

Do you know about death to self? Are you taught that in your church. I'm asking because some churches don't teach that we have to die the death to live before God. Do you believe and know about that?

Jesus said that God gave him power over all flesh, and God did so by the power of the spirit.

Look what Peter is saying here about Jesus, can you see?

1 Peter 3

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Christ Jesus was put to death in his flesh as quickened by the spirit this happened in his lifetime.

Look

Ephesians 2

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Acts 2

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

But the difference between us and Jesus is that we are sinners, he came into this sinful flesh willingly to bare witness to the truth and bring as many back to God as he could by the word, through preaching the gospel, and he had never sinned. He was becoming stronger in the spirit from a child, being born of God in the womb, he had the Spirit from the beginning and he denied sin to do Gods will, we have turn from sin and obey God and do his will and fight our flesh, and be put to death by the spirit, to be born of God. And Jesus Christ came and showed us the way! A new a living way!

He grew strong in God even as a child, and we know that he was already doing Gods will at the age of 12!

Luke 2
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.

And further down the chapter

And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.*And he said unto them, ,How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?*

Jesus was always about his father's business, he always did what pleased him, and he always lived by the will of God.

Also, it says in the Bible that Jesus came by water and by blood, this is coming with the word of God and living it out and denying sin. Can't you see it's not the natural blood on the cross?

And look at the scriptures that you have quoted

1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would NOT have crucified the Lord of glory

Why would Paul even say this if Jesus died on the cross to save us? He's saying it was wrong to crucify Jesus. Not good and holy... But wrong!

As for Hebrews 12:2.

And so are we to endure our cross, Jesus said deny yourself take up your cross and follow me.

Do we have to be crucified?

And he also said those who endure to the end the same shall be saved! So we are to endure our cross and follow Jesus to the end, Jesus says that those who don't take up their cross are not worthy of him. This isn't the natural wooden cross!

And Isaiah 53:10, why do you think this means the death on the cross? And as I was saying earlier, Jesus suffered through his life and God was pleased because he bore witness to the truth and suffered persecution for it. And I don't know why you think that making his soul as offering for sin is dying on the cross? He was willing to come into sinful flesh and lay down his life to do Gods will, he who knew no sin, to bare witness to the truth. I believe that we are here because we have sinned and now to eat again off the tree of Life we must die to our flesh and do the will of God, but Jesus never sinned but came here anyway, he came willingly, sent by God and he was our perfect example and showed us a new and living way way. He is the way, the truth and the life and he is the only way back to God. But it is his life that saves not his death. The only death that God wants to see the the death to our flesh.

Do you honestly believe in your heart LA that a loving God would send his son to be a human sacrifice to save us? We are saved by the grace of God through faith! We are saved by life not death. We are saved from our past sins by believing in him and having faith, and then once we are born of God, we are saved daily by the Spirit, we are then raised with Christ who by the grace of God is changing our hearts and cleansing us so that we are becoming more like Christ daily and being covered in his blood his righteousness is seen through us. This what God wants to see, he wants to see his son in and through us, he wants to see our old man gone and for us to be born anew by the Spirit into the image of his incorruptible son, mortality swallowed up by life, as Christ by the Spirit strengthens us to overcome our flesh bringing us from death to life, from darkness into light.

There would be absolutely no point in God sending Jesus with the whole purpose being to die on the cross, that make his life and gospel void. That's what many mainstream Christians teach and it's not the truth. All as they talk about is the cross, and death they are full of death. But God is a living God and Jesus Christ came with life he is the life and he preached the ministry of reconciliation, being completely dead to his flesh he did his father's will and God was in him reconciling the world into himself, we didn't see the flesh of Jesus that was gone, he had laid down his life and he was dead and buried. We saw the Christ, the son of the living God baring witness to the truth and being in Gods express image he was Emmanuel (God with us) because that is who we saw through Jesus, the fullness of God bodily living and walking among us in his son. He only ever spoke what the father gave him to speak, he was a bright and shining light and as we walk in the light, we bare witness turn the truth, bringing the light of Christ to others.

Now through Christ, God is with us by his Spirit when we are dead to this flesh and living by his will, his Spirit is walking teaching and guiding us daily, the more we partake in Christ's sufferings, the more our old man dies and the stronger we become in God. And the stronger we become in God, the more that Christ is manifest in our flesh and we are then at one with God and Christ!

Without Christ's death on the cross, all humanity including all who walked with God, would be burnt up with the creation in the lake of fire.

Jesus Christ was born the second Adam, and was not born a Temple of the Holy Spirit. If He was then the atonement is not in effect.

The difference between He and Adam has to do with God being His Father and His Fathering by the Spirit which the first Adam never got to, for had Adam and Eve refused to eat of the forbidden tree, then they might well have eaten of the tree of life which Christ did in His growing up,( but then there was not in place yet much to keep them from sin.)

Jesus Christ was a first creation man, being made perfect. He was never a sinner, He just grew in statue and wisdom to become a mature man, and the only one of the first creation.

It was the giving up of that life to be granted a far higher life that has enabled us sinners to be joined with Him.

In the mean time our lives are being changed from Glory to glory as we eat of the living word of God, which was illegal until Christ satisfied the righteous law of God and paid the price required.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

There are many reasons why the changing is not complete for all in this life but the resurrection will complete it, unless one is reprobate.

LA

 

[freelight]

Reconsidering the necessity of blood........

Reconsidering the necessity of blood........

Christ's sacrifice was unto death.

While you may say you can atone for your own sins by your own obedience, the Bible does not teach that.

Hello LA and all following,

Let me just give the re-edited blog-post versions of my original 2-part commentary on 'blood atonement' already posted here by LA, but these versions have the original accents in text and LIVE links

Part 1 - here

Part 2 - here

With continual refining and expounding of the points, some modifications may occur in the course of our 'dialogue', since a student of truth is always open to 'progressive revelation'. We'll consider the ethic, principle, idea, concept, nuances of the doctrine being considered, and from there explore all dimensions, meaning and implications.

To address the first part above, I'm presenting a view that atonement is provisionally granted by grace of course, but that one may be restored to God thru other means besides a 'blood sacrifice' which was only provisionary for certain kinds of sins in the OT dispensation, while other forms of offerings sufficed to make 'atonement', and still today without a temple existing,....the means of 'atonement' (here I also include 'atonement' to mean coming into a state of 'at-one-ment' with God) is essentially efficaciously granted thru prayer, repentance, charity, return to right-doing, which includes making restitution, amends or paying back what you can, for any crime or harm committed, doing works that prove your repentance is genuine, having real transformation of heart and soul affecting a return to God and his law (all engaged thru 'faith'). "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come nigh you". - the key is always repentance.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Such is a conceptual frame of 'atonement', for God's love exists for us anyhow, but Paul is using the illustration of Jesus death, his 'blood' symbolically,...as showing Jesus life poured out for us, as an offering done in our behalf, a demonstration of selfless love. There are different nuances of 'atonement' theory that can be applied here. Since the blood-atonement concept was carried out thru the OT, and older ancient pagan traditions, it obviously was continued in the NT theology, within a larger conceptual frame of similar archetypal meanings by analogy. The blood still remains a figurative symbol, and for it to be of any significance or value, must be a spiritual force or vitality that a believer has access to thru 'faith', to effect an 'atonement', the life-force of Jesus being communicated, covering, redeeming, cleansing the soul of the believer. - hence Christ here, has become a life-giving spirit. - and the blood of Jesus the Messiah His Son, cleanses us from all sin. - (the life giving soul-essence and spirit of the Messiah,...is efficious, yes...to provide an atonement)...but this must be communicated then realized in the experience of a person thru a process of repentance, transformation, sanctification, unless it remains merely an intellectual concept for its own sake.

We might add that while I have different views of 'blood atonement' I have never spurned, devalued or profaned the holy blood of Christ, and I never would (protests aside). Since the testimony of Jesus is verified by the Spirit, water and the blood,...I as a student of scripture could not deny the Lord Jesus, neither blaspheme the Holy Spirit. As God is my witness, I never have. I have a different understanding as well as many other religionists, of the blood-atonement concept, on what is being 'communicated' thereby. So, before any try to judge, condemn or vilify (which is the habit of some),...know that God alone knows our hearts and He searches the inward parts. All judgments are known before the tribunals of heaven, so any pointing fingers, accusers, bearers of false witness.... shall be judged by the same bar or standard that they render unto others.

Obviously you have never been reconciled to God by the death of His Son, or you would not suggest the blood had healing powers to atone for sin.

but rather you would understand that the blood shed was because He gave His life to the max to rescue those who believe in Him from the unavoidable sentence of death because of their own sin.

It is much like the head master who made a law (and God did not just make up laws)that the next person who broke something would be expelled from school if he did not pay for it, but knowing that a poor child had broken something valuable and could not pay for it, the headmaster paid it himself.

I see that, but do not necessarily agree with the 'vicarious' atonement concept, that a debt HAD to be paid. God's LOVE is always being, so any 'demand' for blood doesn't seem right, except if you assume or presume by some primitive concept of blood sacrifice is 'necessary' to win back God's love and forgiveness. However, I don't see that love as needing to be 'purchased' by the innocent life of another soul (animal, human or angel) since God's Love never was withdrawn nor needing a 'ransom' to be paid to restore it. Consider the parable of the prodigal son. Granted, there may be more aspects to the 'ransom theory', but I share what perspective I have now on the subject. And God's Love is NOW, all radiant, fully present, ever-accessible. - one could have it communicated thru symbols and metaphor, and that is the usefulness of 'scripture'.

The shedding of the blood of animals was necessary for a repentant sinner to be forgiven who lived under the law. It was not because God is cruel to animals as you suggest.

Sure, under old mosaic law and the temple system of those days. Im researching this more, and question the need for animal sacrifice altogether,...in older pagan rites, in the Jewish tradition and beyond. Does an animal or human NEED to die to grant another salvation? There are passages that say the righteousness of another cannot be transferred to another (vicariously), and that each soul must bear the responsibility for its own sins and salvation. Each soul is responsible for its own death or life by its own free will choice. Again, I question why 'God' NEEDS BLOOD. - does the physical blood being splattered have magical powers? now metaphysically...we could assume some kind of spiritual life-essence in the tangible blood, sure, this is understood within occult teachings. - but its more its spiritual meaning, import and what is transpiring thru the act, symbology and the meaning conveyed that matters. - at last, its all a matter of the faith one has in the substance and forms within the religious play or ritual, that communicate something that corresponds within the soul.

God's disgust with their sacrifices was because they did not repent of their sin, and they thought they could stand forgiven before God by the blood sacrifices alone.

Indeed, and that was one of my main points. Without real repentance within, the returning of the heart-soul to God (yielding to God), the inward transformation, the outward ritual or physical blood does not fully avail for a person. The inward and outward act, must become one in the individual, and at last the true sacrifice is one's own soul poured out to the Spirit, the death of the carnal self as it were, so the spirit or higher-self may arise.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Not that not all things are purged by blood, only some kinds of sins were atoned for by blood, NOT all, neither is blood always required. It was a main way that some sins were atoned for yes,....but its not always necessary.

Rabbi Singer - Could Jesus death atone for any kind of sin?

However God accepted the sacrifices of many people, when they repented, as they gave up to God something of great value to them. It was not like today.

Yes,...but the actual repentance was key.

The sacrifice of Christ and His resurrection made it possible to bring in a greater and more perfect covenant which the believers can only access the benefits of, through the death of themselves as well, but like Christ it was death in the self life of the heart and soul, before death of the flesh itself.

I've agreed, that the outward sacrifices were ritual demonstrations of what the soul itself must do, pour out its own life unto God, surrender, put to death the flesh, so the spirit may live and offer unto God pure worship, spiritual service. The true sacrifices are a broken heart, contrite spirit,...the giving up of self, to the glory of God, all breath returned to him in praise, thanksgiving, prayer, song, etc. - all these are forms of worship (attributing the highest value to God alone, dropping all else that is of lesser value).

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

As you may know, this chapter is subject to interpretation. It can work either way really, whether the Suffering Servant is Israel or some Messiah-figure....however,...one can stil interpret this within any given 'atonement-model',...and still it is 'figurative'. Yes, by the Servant-Messiah's stripes we are healed,...all that the Son of Man undergoes, is for our own benefit, that he may arise in all the fullness and inheritance of the Son of God, AS the Son of God. Hence Jesus for us bears the archetypal fullness of BOTH the Son of Man & Son of God, humanity and divinity fully harmonized in their full potential and possibilities.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Freelight,

Not that not all things are purged by blood, only some kinds of sins were atoned for by blood, NOT all, neither is blood always required. It was a main way that some sins were atoned for yes,....but its not always necessary.

You still try and replace the blood of Christ with your works of self improvement.


Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

As you may know, this chapter is subject to interpretation. It can work either way really, whether the Suffering Servant is Israel or some Messiah-figure....however,...one can stil interpret this within any given 'atonement-model',...and still it is 'figurative'. Yes, by the Servant-Messiah's stripes we are healed,...all that the Son of Man undergoes, is for our own benefit, that he may arise in all the fullness and inheritance of the Son of God, AS the Son of God. Hence Jesus for us bears the archetypal fullness of BOTH the Son of Man & Son of God, humanity and divinity fully harmonized in their full potential and possibilities.

You still have not faced the cross of Christ.

Exo 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
Exo 4:25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
Exo 4:26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

Why did the Lord seek to kill Moses over circumcision of his son.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I watched the video.

It is a denial of Jesus Christ, and expounds Judaism.

It starts off denying original sin, so they can deny the need for the sacrifice of Christ to restore man from the damage and incursion of satan into everyman born from Adam.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


Judaism and its lies will save no one, even if they know all about repentance steps of the true believers.

You have not the ticket to enter into the great congregation. You need to become born from above which only blood bought persons can be, like any baby before growing up, in your case ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

The video is a good lesson in what Judaism is all about,

The rejection of Jesus Christ.





LA

 

[freelight]

Freelight,

You still try and replace the blood of Christ with your works of self improvement.

Beyond the provisionary and symbolic aspects of 'blood', 'repentance' is still required.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

The reason I bring up Jewish perspective, translation and interpretation, is because it is original and does not accept the 'christianizing' of its texts, so just sharing as contrasting observations.

You still have not faced the cross of Christ.

The cross is symbolic,...I'm not sure what aspects of it you'd like me to face - it symbolizes the flesh being crucified, the death of the ego-self, the dying to the old man, so that the soul can ARISE as the new-man, the new creation, the resurrection body. - its 'figurative'. One can draw other allegories here of course, but this is the primary one I see, as Jesus says to take up your cross daily....what does that mean but to imitate his own life of self-surrender and sacrifice of self, to Do God's will.

Exo 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
Exo 4:25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
Exo 4:26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

Why did the Lord seek to kill Moses over circumcision of his son.

I find this passage somewhat controversial due to my own thoughts on 'circumcision', and you know even Paul later disavows its necessity (all that ever avails is faith working thru love, and/or a 'new creation') even though he personally circumcised Timothy from religious social pressure to conform. Again, I dont know that bloodshed of any kind is necessary!

Therefore I find it somewhat cruel that God would actually intend to KILL Moses over such a carnal rite, even if it was so important back in his day, to abide thereby. Beyond this, I dont see how it pertains to the blood of Christ, but I suspect I'll get a commentary thereon

 

[freelight]

Atonement in Judaism..................

Atonement in Judaism..................

I watched the video.

It is a denial of Jesus Christ, and expounds Judaism.

It starts off denying original sin, so they can deny the need for the sacrifice of Christ to restore man from the damage and incursion of satan into everyman born from Adam.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


Judaism and its lies will save no one, even if they know all about repentance steps of the true believers.

You have not the ticket to enter into the great congregation. You need to become born from above which only blood bought persons can be, like any baby before growing up, in your case ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

The video is a good lesson in what Judaism is all about,

The rejection of Jesus Christ.

Well yes,...the video presents the ancient and modern view of blood-atonement, and that its not necessary at the present time in affording Jews or anyone for that matter, an atonement...since prayer, repentance, charity and good works....AVAIL to return one to 'God'. I continue to share the Jewish view from there own scriptures, and will then move beyond that into the NT and beyond, also non-canonical sources and religious schools on the concept of 'blood atonement'.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Well yes,...the video presents the ancient and modern view of blood-atonement, and that its not necessary at the present time in affording Jews or anyone for that matter, an atonement...since prayer, repentance, charity and good works....AVAIL to return one to 'God'. I continue to share the Jewish view from there own scriptures, and will then move beyond that into the NT and beyond, also non-canonical sources and religious schools on the concept of 'blood atonement'.

Freelight follows the word of the mystics--

Beginning in 1923, Dr. Sadler invited a group of friends, informally known as The Forum, to examine these intelligences, which were now rapidly becoming more numerous. While the channeler slept, the spirits freely answered questions in a manner not unlike that of Edgar Cayce, the famed "sleeping prophet." Sadler and his cohorts compiled 4000 questions they wanted the spirits to answer. A few weeks later, the channeler handed Dr. Sadler a sheaf of 472 pages, answering every question which had been put to him/them. The channeler's wife told Sadler that the material had been written in a single evening. By 1935, the last of the messages was delivered, and the entities asked Dr. Sadler, by now a true believer and an ex-Adventist, that the work be published.[2] Twenty years later THE URANTIA BOOK appeared in print.

http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=823&Itemid=10

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

 

[freelight]

Getting the more accurate information is essential....

Getting the more accurate information is essential....

Freelight follows the word of the mystics--

http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=823&Itemid=10

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

I address this here.

I've provided ample commentary on the Urantia Book's view and teaching on 'blood atonement' and it accords with the Jewish view that REPENTANCE is what is essential, genuine repentance is fundamental, and alone is necessary to effect real salvation, forgiveness of sin, purification, a real return to God, to righteousness. Outward rituals are ok as an outward sign or compliment to the inward gesture of the soul, but what is essential is the soul's surrender and return to God, this cannot be under-emphasized, and what is essential. The outpourring or surrender of the soul-life, yielding it to the Spirit, is what is going on psychologically and spiritually within a soul, that arises in newness of life via faith in divine grace, and the process of repentance. - all reference to the blood of Christ is therefore 'spiritual', 'figurative', 'symbolic', and its efficacy is thru 'faith', so still....we are accessing the provision of love's atonement thru our faith-acceptance of God's love, provided for by the life-offering of His Messiah-Son. It is the Spirit that is LIFE. - all else are symbols and tokens, relaying psychic and spiritual things and processes.

As to your article snippet from the cult awareness organization about the UB,....we would have researchers go to Urantia Book sources/organizations to get the history and most accurate accounts of the production of the UB, NOT organizations or persons who are adversarial and biased against it. Go to the best sources themselves, then you can compare and judge against counter-groups and their material to know the best more reliable data. This is how we approach any subject, fairly.

See also: Notes on the origin of the UB

Also,..the UB was not brought about in a way that OT laws could be enforced against, since there was no witchcraft or Spiritism involved in the production of its papers - see here.

 

[daqq]

Well yes,...the video presents the ancient and modern view of blood-atonement, and that its not necessary at the present time in affording Jews or anyone for that matter, an atonement...since prayer, repentance, charity and good works....AVAIL to return one to 'God'. I continue to share the Jewish view from there own scriptures, and will then move beyond that into the NT and beyond, also non-canonical sources and religious schools on the concept of 'blood atonement'.

Great video Freelight.
Messiah and his apostles teach the same.

The law of liberty:

Matthew 6:9-15 ASV
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Where are there any stipulations to the above bolded statements? It is plain as day and clear as daylight: if you forgive others their debts and trespasses then your heavenly Father will forgive yours when you ask, (which is essentially to repent). But if you do not forgive others their trespasses then neither will your heavenly Father forgive your trespasses, period, no if's, and's, or but's about it. This is why Yakob-James calls it the "law of liberty", for mercy triumphs, exalts, or "glories" over judgment, and that is exactly what the passage from the epistle is speaking about. It no doubt speaks of this passage above from Matthew and others like it:

James 2:12-13 ASV
12 So speak ye, and so do, as men that are to be judged by a law of liberty.
13 For judgment is without mercy to him that hath showed no mercy: mercy glorieth against judgment.

What is he speaking about when he says that judgment shall be without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy? He is clearly speaking of the prayer recorded in the Matthew passage quoted above. The parable in Matthew 18:21-35, which concerns this same topic of forgiveness, is even more clearly and overtly expounded by the Master, ("So shall also my heavenly Father do unto you if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts!" - Matthew 18:35).

 

[freelight]

Forgiven AS we forgive..................

Forgiven AS we forgive..................

Great video Freelight.
Messiah and his apostles teach the same.

The law of liberty:

Matthew 6:9-15 ASV
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Where are there any stipulations to the above bolded statements? It is plain as day and clear as daylight: if you forgive others their debts and trespasses then your heavenly Father will forgive yours when you ask, (which is essentially to repent). But if you do not forgive others their trespasses then neither will your heavenly Father forgive your trespasses, period, no if's, and's, or but's about it. This is why Yakob-James calls it the "law of liberty", for mercy triumphs, exalts, or "glories" over judgment, and that is exactly what the passage from the epistle is speaking about. It no doubt speaks of this passage above from Matthew and others like it:

James 2:12-13 ASV
12 So speak ye, and so do, as men that are to be judged by a law of liberty.
13 For judgment is without mercy to him that hath showed no mercy: mercy glorieth against judgment.

What is he speaking about when he says that judgment shall be without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy? He is clearly speaking of the prayer recorded in the Matthew passage quoted above. The parable in Matthew 18:21-35, which concerns this same topic of forgiveness, is even more clearly and overtly expounded by the Master, ("So shall also my heavenly Father do unto you if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts!" - Matthew 18:35).

:thumb:

Yes,...we come right back to the Lord Jesus teaching (confirmed by James), not only in the Sermon on the mount, but also right in the Lord's Prayer.

~*~*~

“This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’

For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

- Matt. 6: 9-14

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I address this here.

I've provided ample commentary on the Urantia Book's view and teaching on 'blood atonement' and it accords with the Jewish view that REPENTANCE is what is essential, genuine repentance is fundamental, and alone is necessary to effect real salvation].

You are still in your sins.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Great video Freelight.
Messiah and his apostles teach the same.

The law of liberty:

Matthew 6:9-15 ASV
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Where are there any stipulations to the above bolded statements? It is plain as day and clear as daylight: if you forgive others their debts and trespasses then your heavenly Father will forgive yours when you ask, (which is essentially to repent). But if you do not forgive others their trespasses then neither will your heavenly Father forgive your trespasses, period, no if's, and's, or but's about it. This is why Yakob-James calls it the "law of liberty", for mercy triumphs, exalts, or "glories" over judgment, and that is exactly what the passage from the epistle is speaking about. It no doubt speaks of this passage above from Matthew and others like it:

James 2:12-13 ASV
12 So speak ye, and so do, as men that are to be judged by a law of liberty.
13 For judgment is without mercy to him that hath showed no mercy: mercy glorieth against judgment.

What is he speaking about when he says that judgment shall be without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy? He is clearly speaking of the prayer recorded in the Matthew passage quoted above. The parable in Matthew 18:21-35, which concerns this same topic of forgiveness, is even more clearly and overtly expounded by the Master, ("So shall also my heavenly Father do unto you if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts!" - Matthew 18:35).

You are wrong Dagg.

One must become a child of God through the blood of Christ before the other sacrifices for sins can be applied.(types)

Judaism is a rejection of Jesus Christ, yet you applaud their doctrine.

You are only hurting yourselves.

LA

 

[daqq]

You are still in your sins.

LA

Atonement is not the same thing as forgiveness. Atonement is a righteous and holy covering, both inside and out, and the typology begins with the Ark of Noah which was "pitched within and without", (no doubt the imagery is with red-sap pitch-tar). You can be forgiven and yet still be "dirty", (especially the conscience if you continue in habitual sin), so what is it that cleanses you? This can only be done by putting on the mind of Messiah and beginning to cut off sin from your life and limbs: and the only way to put on the mind of Messiah is by consuming all of his holy Testimony which he paid for with his own blood. If you do not have and hold the Testimony of Messiah in uprightness and truth then neither do you have the atonement covering of his blood. And if you claim to be a follower of Messiah only in name, and do not do what he says to do in his Testimony, then you trample his Testimony which represents his blood.

 

[daqq]

You are wrong Dagg.

One must become a child of God through the blood of Christ before the other sacrifices for sins can be applied.(types)

Judaism is a rejection of Jesus Christ, yet you applaud their doctrine.

You are only hurting yourselves.

LA

Saying "You are wrong" proves nothing and please see my post above.