Atonement without blood according to Freelight.

[freelight]

You have no right, and you can not, eat of the Holy things unless you have faith in the blood of the new covenant.

Jews like to try that but they remain the old creatures they always were, and you endorse their teachings in posting their videos because they have the same position as yourself.

LA

I share the Hebrew view because those are the roots of the Christian tradition. Also, since the blood covenant is symbolic, I can still share in it by accepting its symbolic meaning, interpretation and application. The wine of the new covenant is of Spirit, so we can all share in that as a 'new creation' in Messiah.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

The changeless God has always been forgiving. In the original gospel, salvation was by faith and forgiveness was by a change of heart. If the Jews would have accepted the gospel of Jesus, he would have relinquished his mortal body and returned home. No legal mumbo jumbo about sin debt and paying a price. We are children of God not cattle �� mooooooo!

For all that you shore do moooo purdy. :crackup:

 

[daqq]

The changeless God has always been forgiving. In the original gospel, salvation was by faith and forgiveness was by a change of heart. If the Jews would have accepted the gospel of Jesus, he would have relinquished his mortal body and returned home. No legal mumbo jumbo about sin debt and paying a price. We are children of God not cattle �� mooooooo!

Ah, but we are likened to cattle, (and many like wild bulls and fatlings of Bashan).

1 Corinthians 9:8-10 KJV
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Does Elohim take care for oxen? Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes no doubt this is written! Time to relearn the Torah by the Testimony of Messiah because it does not speak of slaughtering literal physical bulls, bullocks, oxen, cattle, lambs, rams, and goats, to appease an angry and vengeful Elohim. Amen? So one must do like Nikodemos, and Paul, even all those of the faith, and go back into our mothers womb, (Jerusalem of above, our mother covenant according to Gal 4:22-27), so that we might relearn everything through they new eyes and mind of Messiah by way of his Testimony: then shall we offer the sacrifices and bullocks of our lips, (the living ascending offering and sacrifice of prayer).

 

[Caino]

Jesus tried to convert the Jews to his gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven. He hand picked 12 common men and only lost one. He taught them his gospel and they all went about the land teaching and preaching the good newsof the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of all mankind 3+ years before the cross ever happened.

As Jesus prepared for what he knew was the inevitable rejection of his gospel, he revealed that he was leaving. His apostles were baffled, they loved him and naturally don't want his to leave. They had assumed he was the Jewish Messiah and fulfilled the expectations of that office. Never was the good news that they had been teaching centered on forgiveness of sin debt based on Jesus being killed, never! The cross was never the good news of the original gospel, it became the good news of the new modified version of the original based on post-cross speculation.

 

[freelight]

Continuing Jewish Video series

Continuing Jewish Video series

~*~*~

Rabbi Skobac on "Did Jesus have to die for sins?"

 

[freelight]

Gospel of the Holy 12 (Gospel of the Nazarenes)..............

Gospel of the Holy 12 (Gospel of the Nazarenes)..............

~*~*~

Continuing our studies on blood atonement, it should be clear now from the Old Testament and Jewish scriptures that blood sacrifice was not the ONLY way of atonement, much less as a means to forgive sins (as there are aspects of 'atonement' that differ from 'forgiveness'), and blood sacrifice only atones for unintentional sins, not others, while flour offerings were accepted as well if an animal could not be afforded. Outside of the temple system there have been other means of atonement as well, BUT MORE IMPORTANT is that God does NOT desire blood sacrifices or the killing of any animals, but what is required for a return to righteousness (right doing from a right heart and soul disposition of love) is REPENTANCE, and making amends of any wrong done...to God and to others. It is the doing of right, authentic faith and genuine surrender to God in humility, offering up one's body and soul as a living sacrifice that avails as the perfect offering to 'God', which engages the doing of God's will.

Nothing can substitute for this, and I have seen nothing as of yet to convince anything could, hence only true repentance and genuine surrender to Deity avails. A re-turning to God is essential. All else are but props, helps, ritual gestures, signs and symbols of the souls return to God,...and even they are profitless unless they effect and/or are accompanied by a true change of mind and heart which returns that soul into God's good will.

~*~*~

A wonderful gospel-account that I've gleaned from and contains gems from some of the earlier source-texts is the Gospel of the Holy 12 (or 'Gospel of the Nazarienes), and I will quote from Allan Cronshaw's updated translation here from lection 33 -

1.Yeshua was teaching His disciples in the outer court of the temple and one of them said to Him, "Master, it is said by the priests that without shedding of blood there is no remission. Can then the blood offerings of the laws take away sin?"

2.And Yeshua answered, "No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin. For how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation."

3."The priests indeed receive such offerings as a reconciliation of the worshippers for the trespasses against (1997 "that which they believe to be) the Law of Moses; but for sins against the Law of God there can be no remission, save by repentance and amendment."

4.Is it not written in the prophets, "Put your blood sacrifices to your burnt offerings, and away with them, and cease from the eating flesh. I did not speak to your fathers nor commanded them, concerning these things, when I brought them out of Egypt. But this thing I commanded saying,

5."Obey my voice and walk in the ways that I have commanded you, and you will be my people, and it shall be well with you. But they did not listen, nor inclined their ear."

6."And what doth the eternal command you, but to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with your God? Is it not written that in the beginning God ordained the fruits of the trees and the seeds and the herbs to be food for all flesh?"

7."But they have made the house of prayer a den of thieves, and for the oblation with incense, they have polluted my altars with blood, and eaten of the flesh of the slain."

8."But I say to you, shed no innocent blood nor eat flesh. Walk upright, love mercy, and do justly, and your days shall be long in the land."

9."The corn that grows from the earth with the other grain, is it not transmuted by the spirit into my flesh? The grapes of the vineyard, with the other fruits, are they not transmuted by the spirit into my blood? Let these, with your bodies and souls be your memorial to the eternal."

10."In these is the presence of God manifest as the substance and as the life of the world. Of these will you eat and drink for the remission of sins, and for eternal life, to all who obey my words."

~*~*~

In the above we have a more Essene-like emphasis on the elements of nature, the natural fruit, grains, seeds and vegetables of the earth, being our nourishment, and likening this on a spiritual level, of what God provides for us thru the teaching of Messiah, who returns us back to that Eden-like state. This is a more humane gospel account, and one is free to accept or reject it, after reading the links and the gospel itself, to discern any truth it may contain.

~ The Nazarean Way ~
The Esoteric Teachings of Jesus and the Nazarean Essenes

Concerning verse 2 above, we have something similar to it from the Gospel of the Ebionites where Jesus says ""I am come to do away with sacrfices, and if you cease not sacrificing, the wrath of God will not cease from you."
(Epiphanius, Panarion 30.16,4-5)

Jesus fully demonstrated his power to forgive sins, and gave his disciples that same power whereby one could forgive the sins of others, thereby opening the way of forgiveness for themselves from God, for our relationship to others is not separate or different than our relationship with God, - duality is an 'illusion', for all is one.

All ultimately points us back to the temple of the human mind and body, the spirit of God (Christ) in man, whereby that inner divine teacher is the mediator or high priest within the temple, but it is not blood that is offered but the soul-life yieldging itself in service to the Spirit, in various functions within the inner sanctuary. It is the esoteric meaning and value of the types, symbols and shadows that the words and forms represent or point towards that draw the soul into living truth of Spirit, which alone is life. Here the logos orchestrates and orders its movement according to divine logic, the workings and dynamics of spirit-ministry, as the divine artist. All life in relationship is 'co-creation'.

The writings or gospels of the Essenes, Ebionites, Nazarenes, Hebrews and similar groups within this vein of early Christianity, tended towards a more holistic, elemental and humane form of spirituality, which did NOT require blood sacrifice, cruelty to animals, killing, but purify the body and mind thru natural and harmless means.

The Nazarenes of Mount Carmal

I had to introduce the Essene Way again, as to resurrect earlier sentiments with this school in past studies, as one of my older threads was 'The Essenes, ancient and modern day teachings'

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Freelight,

You would not post videos from unbelieving Jews unless you agreed with them.

So do not pretend you are a believer in Christ.

Christs death condemned the entire first creation with all of its sin.

However those with faith in Christ are saved by His life.

and in this present age believers in Christ are saved from their present weaknesses by the sufferings of Christ.

Now you demonstrate you have never had any faith in the cross of Christ, so that you remain part of the creation condemned to death, as you think it in your ability to please God by your own self to turn your heart to God and change your ways to please God while you reject His word concerning His son.

Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.


LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Opened so you can see what Freelight and Daqq really believe.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

~*~*~

Rabbi Skobac on "Did Jesus have to die for sins?"

Freelight and Daqq believe this stuff.

LA

 

[daqq]

How do you understand the following highly disputed passage LA?

Acts 20:28 KJV
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 20:28 YLT
28 'Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit made you overseers, to feed the assembly of God that He acquired through His own blood,

Acts 20:28 ASV
28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.

Or whichever translation or rendering you prefer?

Hmmm, no response? How can you have a blood atonement thread without addressing this LA?

The verses seem so self explanatory.

You can speak on them if you like.

LA

Simple enough . . .
Here is my commentary:

Romans 8:11 W/H
11 εἰ δὲ τὸ πνεῦμα τοῦ ἐγείραντος τὸν Ἰησοῦν ἐκ νεκρῶν οἰκεῖ ἐν ὑμῖν, ὁ ἐγείρας ἐκ νεκρῶν Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν ζῳοποιήσει [καὶ] τὰ θνητὰ σώματα ὑμῶν διὰ τοῦ ἐνοικοῦντος αὐτοῦ πνεύματος ἐν ὑμῖν.

Romans 8:4-15
4 That the righteousness of the Torah should be completed in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the matters of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the matters of the Spirit.
6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace.
7 Because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards Elohim, for it does not subject itself to the Torah of Elohim, neither indeed is it capable:
8 And those who are in the flesh are unable to please Elohim.
9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed Ruach Elohim dwells in you: but if anyone does not have Ruach Meshiah, that one is not his.
10 And if Meshiah be in you, the body is truly dead on account of sin, but the Spirit is life on account of righteousness.
11 Moreover if the Spirit of he who raised Yeshua from the dead dwells in you, Meshiah who raised Yeshua from the dead shall also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit dwelling in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh:
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you do put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live.
14 For as many as are led of Ruach Elohim, these are sons of Elohim.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, in whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." [Mrk 14:36, Gal 4:6]

So one must walk according to the Spirit because the scripture also says:

John 1:18a
18 No one has seen Elohim at any time:

1 John 4:12a
12 No one has beheld Elohim at any time:

1 John 4:20
20 If anyone says, "I love Elohim", and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, cannot love Elohim whom he has not seen.

And if no one has ever seen or beheld Elohim at any time then neither has anyone ever seen or beheld the blood of Elohim at any time, no matter how one decides to understand Acts 20:28, for the blood of our covenant is Spirit.

Also Romans 8:11 is another highly suspect statement because of the variant readings in the various manuscripts. The overall passage plainly speaks of Adoptionism as quoted previously above, (the position to which I hold), which position was indeed the position of the apostles including Paul, and which position has long been known to have been scrubbed by the early Roman Church after Constantine married church and state together as one:

Romans 8:11 W/H / [Variants]
11 ει δε το πνευμα του εγειραντος τον ιησουν εκ νεκρων οικει εν υμιν ο εγειρας | εκ νεκρων χριστον ιησουν ζωοποιησει [και] | χριστον εκ νεκρων ζωοποιησει και | τα θνητα σωματα υμων δια του ενοικουντος αυτου πνευματος εν υμιν

Romans 8:11 W/H / [NA27 Variants]
εἰ δὲ τὸ πνεῦμα τοῦ ἐγείραντος τὸν Ἰησοῦν ἐκ νεκρῶν οἰκεῖ ἐν ὑμῖν, ὁ ἐγείρας «ἐκ νεκρῶν» ⇔ Χριστὸν (Ἰησοῦν) ζωοποιήσει καὶ τὰ θνητὰ σώματα ὑμῶν διὰ τοῦ ἐνοικοῦντος αὐτοῦ πνεύματος ἐν ὑμῖν.
http://biblehub.com/text/romans/8-11.htm

Romans 8:11 T/R (Textus Receptus)
11 ει δε το πνευμα του εγειραντος ιησουν εκ νεκρων οικει εν υμιν ο εγειρας τον χριστον εκ νεκρων ζωοποιησει και τα θνητα σωματα υμων δια {το ενοικουν αυτου πνευμα}{ του ενοικουντος αυτου πνευματος} εν υμιν

Romans 8:11 BYZ (Byzantine Text)
11 ει δε το πνευμα του εγειραντος ιησουν εκ νεκρων οικει εν υμιν ο εγειρας τον χριστον εκ νεκρων ζωοποιησει και τα θνητα σωματα υμων δια το ενοικουν αυτου πνευμα εν υμιν

The reason this passage has become so mangled is because carnal man does not distinguish between Meshiah the Son of Elohim, (who is Ruach Elohim and Ruach Meshiah), and the man Yeshua whom Ruach Meshiah raised from the dead, (just as Yeshua testifies in the Gospel of John, and as has been expounded many times over around here; even in plainly a worded thread which has been shut down by the haters of Ruach Elohim). So likewise the charge from the bastard sons that I am manipulating the scripture holds no water: their mother and fathers are the ones who manipulated and hacked up the writings to suit their own agenda and dogma. But the truth remains by way of understanding the overall doctrine from many other passages which remain intact, (because the blind did not even understand what they were reading so as to defile that too).

The blood of Meshiah is the pure blood of the grape; the covenant wine, the Testimony.

It just means the new covenant could not be put in place until Christ shed His blood.

"It just means the new covenant could not be put in place until Christ shed His blood."

Amen, and Messiah did so all throughout the Gospel accounts: he would shed more of his blood, and they would call him names and accuse him of having an unclean spirit. Funny how some things never change.

Not worth the time if you are not willing to step up LA.

 

[daqq]

Here is more from elsewhere but the comments pretty much apply here also:

Actually we are capable of walking out the Torah in Spirit and in truth, unto the Father, becoming pleasing vessels. But this is not possible without the Testimony of Messiah which expounds the fullness of the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. If Messiah had not come we would absolutely never be able to understand the Torah; but being that Messiah did come, we now have less excuse than the Pharisees and Sadducees had in the days of the Gospel accounts. Yes, that is true, and it is called grace, for those who came before Messiah could not possibly have understood the Torah because of the plague of the carnal man mindset, (and it is worse today in this society and culture than it was back then for sure). However the Testimony of Messiah changes all of that because the Master, as the author of our faith, has shown us how to walk according to the Spirit so as to be pleasing unto the Father. Messiah therefore is the one and only author of our faith and his Testimony is the only acceptable Way for us to walk the Spirit of the Torah in uprightness and truth. So essentially what your theology does is to deflect away from a responsibility to be walking in the Light of the Testimony of Messiah, and instead, you refer "the walk" to the Master, as if it was all done for you vicariously; and the obvious conclusion to such thinking, whether it is openly admitted or not, is that you need not worry so much about changing your own ways and ways of thinking. In short; your theology downplays your own responsibility to fully understand and believe the Testimony of Messiah, (and by believe I mean a belief like Paul which amounts to a change in life-course, actions, and deeds, not just a simple one-time assent or "bow of the knee"). However that all-important Testimony of Messiah is the real and true salvation and deliverance, which Testimony he paid for with his own blood, and which Testimony was given him from above, and was not even his own, and which Testimony is the only Testimony sealed by the Father. That holy Testimony found in the Gospel accounts therefore equates to the blood of Messiah: and therefore those who do not observe and carry out the Testimony of Messiah do not have the atonement covering of his blood. It is therefore not a wholly vicarious kind of atonement concept but rather Messiah admonishes all his congregations to purchase from him gold, (which is a similar metaphor), having been tried in the fire, (Rev 3:18). It is not a difficult principle to understand and is shown in various places in the scripture: testimony is water, is blood, is Spirit, and these three testify, and these three are one: for testimony is Spirit, just as the words of Messiah are Spirit and they are Life. The Testimony is the Bread of Life, the Living Water, manna from the heavens, all metaphoric symbolism:

1 Chronicles 11:16-19 KJV (2 Samuel 23:14-17)
16 And David was then in the hold, and the Philistines' garrison was then at Bethlehem.
17 And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me drink of the water of the well of Bethlehem, that is at the gate!
18 And the three brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: but David would not drink of it, but poured it out to the LORD,
19 And said, My God forbid it me, that I should do this thing: shall I drink the blood of these men that have put their lives in jeopardy? for with the jeopardy of their lives they brought it. Therefore he would not drink it. These things did these three mightiest.

The water from the well of Bethlehem is here counted as blood, (and do not neglect the other obvious symbolism involved), because of the actions and the deeds of the "three mighties" who jeoparded their lives to obtain the water from the well. The water is not literal blood but is counted as if their own blood was spilled because of what they did in risking their own souls to obtain that "gold having been tried in the fire".

Water = Blood = Actions-Deeds = Testimony

And Testimony is Spirit:

John 6:62-63 ASV
62 What then if ye should behold the Son of man ascending where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life.

And of course that Testimony concerns the famous passage about the Bread of Life and Manna from the heavens which is the Testimony of the Messiah found in the Gospel accounts, and he says that Testimony is Spirit, and the author of Hebrews says that the blood is the SPIRIT of Grace:

Hebrews 10:28-29 ASV
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

And of course that is the same one SPIRIT which Paul says we all drink of:

1 Corinthians 12:13 ASV
13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit.

And of course there is the same symbolism of the one Bread according to Paul:

1 Corinthians 10:16-17 ASV
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a communion of the body of Christ?
17 seeing that we, who are many, are one bread, one body: for we are all partake of the one bread.

It is one SPIRIT because it is the Testimony of Messiah; which is the Spirit, and the Water, and the Blood, and these three are ONE, and they do Testify because they are the Testimony of Messiah.

 

[daqq]

You never answered these either LA:

Originally Posted by freelight

Indeed, there is no reason to suppose or impose that the Eucharist was a ceremony depicting a penal substitutionary blood sacrifice, as the 'blood' and 'flesh' are symbolic of the fruit of the vine, and the 'bread' of life that comes down from heaven, the regenerating spirit of Life itself, the SPIRIT. I share more on this in the 'blood atonement according to freelight' thread, that LA started some time ago, then CLOSED before I could respond with more commentary. The life Jesus offers comes thru the tokens of the symbol of nature (blood of grapes, the vine, grain, bread, water, the sun, the spirit, etc.)...and transcends old barbaric concepts such as 'penal substitutionary' blood atonement. Just as the fruit of the vine (harvested from the fields) and the 'bread' gives our physical bodies nourishment and life,...so does the manna from heaven, who comes in the form of the Messiah,...give us spiritual nourishment.

Amen, and the nourishment is ultimately The Word, which is The Testimony of Messiah, which according to the allegories and teachings of his apostles is tantamount and equivalent to his blood because he paid for his Testimony with his own life, (which has been explained to LA both in that closed thread and in several other places). That is why the passages I quoted do not say, "Shall be poured out", or, "Is about to be poured out", no, but rather, "Is being poured out", because it concerns his holy Testimony which is SPIRIT and LIFE. Those who do not wish to DO and WALK his Testimony apparently find it easier to pretend they are drinking human blood or "God-Man" blood, (aka Catholicism and transubstantiation).

More false accusations: prove what you say [LA].

Again, you are a liar, and you deny by your false doctrine what the Master tells you right here in these passages quoted above; for he speaks of his true blood, "the pure blood of the grape", (as it is written in the Torah of Moses), and that is because he is the True Vine, (as it is written in the Gospel of John). Your vine, your nourishment, your teacher is the Assyrian who loves the flesh and all things carnal of the carnal eyes and mind of the natural man. You are a theoretical cannibal because you do not believe the Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts. Prove me wrong, and while you are at it, prove what you say about me with scripture to back up what you say: otherwise I know you are only lying once again.

Matthew 26:27-28 ASV
27 And he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.

Mark 14:23-24 ASV
23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

Luke 22:17-18 ASV
17 And he received a cup, and when he had given thanks, he said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 for I say unto you, I shall not drink from henceforth of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

How can you [LA] still not understand that calling people stupid, and piling on more accusations, doesn't prove anything except that you think kicking dust into the air will hide your lack of ability to answer? Get back to me when you have incorporated the following statements into your doctrine and you can adequately explain how and why they are true:

John 1:18a ASV
18a No man hath seen God at any time;

1 John 4:12a ASV
12a No man hath beheld God at any time:

 

[daqq]

1 John 5:6-8 HNV
6 This is he who came by water and blood, Yeshua the Messiah; not with the water only, but with the water and the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three who testify:
8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and the three agree as one.

For they three are in fact the ONE SPIRIT-TESTIMONY.

1 John 5:8 W/H
8 το πνευμα και το υδωρ και το αιμα και οι τρεις εις το εν εισιν
8 the Spirit and the water and the blood: and the three are for the one [Spirit-Testimony].

Living Water ~ Spirit ~ Testimony of Messiah
Bread of Life ~ Spirit ~ Testimony of Messiah
Blood of our Covenant ~ Spirit of Grace ~ Testimony of Messiah

Without the Testimony of Messiah you have nothing.

:sheep:

 

[freelight]

God's LOVE saves,...not a bloody sacrifice.....

God's LOVE saves,...not a bloody sacrifice.....

Freelight and Daqq believe this stuff.

LA

Since I'm challenging and questioning the whole concept of 'blood-atonement', especially the penal substitutionary model, I'm going to take into consideration the Jewish view on it, so yes...Rabbi Skobac and many other orthodox Jewish rabbis opinions count to explain why the concept of Jesus being a 'blood-sacrifice is completely rejected.

Also, not all Christians believe in that form of atonement-theory and have adopted other forms that to them are more believable and rational.

The OrthoRev has an interesting series on 'atonement' models, quite a few videos -

 

[daqq]

Back when Jerry Shugart's son was posting here there was a critical question he brought up, @jshugart, concerning Hebrews 9:22 and whether it should read "shedding of blood" or "application of blood". If it reads shedding of blood then it negates the necessity for applying the blood of the Lamb to the header and door posts of your house: but if it reads application of blood then it requires, by way of the symbolism, the application of the Testimony of Messiah to the header and door posts of your house, (which is also symbolism for your mind, the header or lintel, and your arms-hands-deeds, which are the side-posts of your house, for even man is likened to a house). You would do well, LA, to read the entire thread as it is not that lengthy.

First of all take look here:
Levitical Sacrifice and Heavenly Cult in Hebrews (5.1.2)

That link should hopefully take you right to the page I am attempting to reference, (which I simply found in a search, knowing what to look for). And the only reason I point you there is simply for the fact that αἱματεκχυσία can also mean "blood application", as stated therein, and should not be understood as pertaining to the shedding of blood, (slaughter), in the context of the Hebrews passage where it is found. The Hebrews passage clearly concerns the application of blood, and in this case the Testimony of Messiah represents his blood, (Testimony is Spirit, John 6:63, and his blood is the Spirit of Grace, Heb 10:29), and thus, the Testimony of Messiah must be applied to the disciple; both inside, (drinking of that Spirit, 1Cor 12:13), and outside, (hands-deeds-actions). The reason this is highly critical is because we ourselves are called to be living sacrifices, (in supernal Torah your heart is an "altar of adamah", (Exodus 20:24 and its companion passage Deut 5:29 reveal this supernal truth by way of the Parable of the Sower where the heart is the adamah-soil which must be tilled and purged of stones, weeds, and so on)).

Or, according to the context, which is cleansing or purification:

“And the tabernacle, and all of the service vessels alike, he had sprinkled with the blood.”
“And according to the law, nearly all things are purified by blood; and without the application of blood, there is no sending away, (remission).”

And there are many passages refuting physical blood shedding for atonement:

Psalm 40:6, 7, 8
Psalm 50:7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14
Psalm 51:14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19
Hosea 14:1-2 KJV
Isaiah 1:10, 11, 12, 15
Isaiah 66:1, 2, 3
Jeremiah 7:21, 22, 23

Jeremiah 7:21-26 KJV
21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:
26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.

Literal physical animal sacrifice results in blood guilt according to the scripture, (Psalm 51:14, Isaiah 1:15), and is the result of the imagination of an evil heart according to the above passage from Jeremiah, that is, the imagination of an evil heart that does not actually "hear" the Torah and rather walks according to belly, (just as the serpent was cursed to do from the beginning), which is the result of walking according to the lust of the flesh, (the lust to eat the cooked flesh of slain innocent creatures of Elohim).

If literal physical animal sacrifices result in blood guilt then what can we say of the innocent blood of Messiah if one sees it only in the sense of literal physical bloodshed? Additionally there is no way for anyone to apply the literal physical blood of Messiah to himself or herself because we do not have it; and even if you did have it, if you applied it to your body you would literally have his blood on your hands. However, to this day one can apply his Testimony, (which is why he was killed in the first place, his Testimony, and it represents his actions, deeds, teachings, and therefore his very blood).

Edit: PS ~ This is all in addition to the information in my atonement thread:
Christian Azazel Atonement Theory

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Ok guys, as you have no intention of believing in the atoning work of Christ in His suffering and death upon the cross then the tread just gets closed again.

LA