Arianism.

[freelight]

Correcting Assumption......

Correcting Assumption......

You do realize that Freelight is a believer in the Urantia book, right? He's an eclectic Cult/Occultist.

For those really interested in discovering the truth of GM's claim above, which is off topic,....go here. - being properly educated is better than remaining ignorant

The UB is only one interesting and significant book of religious philosophy among many others in the great library of universal wisdom. Being properly educated about a particular work and the actual theological-philosophical scope and breadth of an individuals actual 'belief-system' is recommended before making singular, specific or presumptuous claims thereon.

~*~*~

My first commentary here on Arianism holds, especially the first paragraph, concerning issues of 'how' or 'why' Jesus could be referred to as 'elohim'. (includes controversy over John 1:1 translation). In all regards however the Son is ever the unique and specially 'begotten' Son in the divine hierarchy, in the purview of 'creation' and 'redemption/salvation', the archetype and prototype of man's own new creation as the 'new man', perfected in Christ, as the last or second Adam (see Adam-kadmon as well). We in Christ are that new creation, being the image and likeness of YHWH fully redeemed, restored and glorified. Such is the meaning of Immanuel, but even more intimately realized, since we are His tabernacle.

 

[KingdomRose]

[MENTION=1746]freelight[/MENTION]

Why do you defend those that deny God Loved us enough to walk amongst us?

God certainly loved us tremendously, and that is why he sent his Son to walk among us. Who do you think Jesus was praying to when he was on Earth? God couldn't have been on Earth and in heaven at the same time. Plus the fact that the One who is the Source of all life and power would evaporate the planet in a split second if He Himself came here. Jehovah, the Most High and Jesus' God (Psalm 83:18, KJV; John 20:17), could not reduce Himself to the size of a human being. Neither could He die. So He had to send His beloved Son to represent Him.

 

[KingdomRose]

You simply are without answer and are desperate to refute what I say.

# Exposed.

It's quite easy to refute what you say.

 

[KingdomRose]

Correct,...Arianism held reign during the Great Controversy for some years, relapsed then came back again a few times as some of the emporers/rulers held Arian sentiments. Just like so many Christological perspectives can be maintained by 'biblical support',....so can Arianism.

Ever notice that the 'orthodox' and almost every 'heterodoxical' view has their 'proof-texts'?

Proof-texts offered by those opposed to the Arian point of view can be dismanteled easily, if the reader or listener wants to pay attention. Arius' view that Jesus is in subjection to the Father CANNOT be refuted. It is as plain as day. (John 5:19,30; John 6:38; John 8:28,29; John 12:49,50; John 14:24,28; John 17:3; John 20:17; I Corinthians 11:3; Hebrews 8:1,2; 9:14; 12:2; Revelation 3:12)

 

[KingdomRose]

Do you believe Jesus is YHWH?

And again...

Exodus (34:14)

Does Jehovah share worship?

You haven't dared to answer my question concerning PSALM 110:1,2 and ISAIAH 61:1,2. Will you explain how YHWH can talk to himself, as in Psalm 110? Plainly, two persons are pictured there. And why would YHWH ANOINT HIMSELF, as at Isaiah 61? Clearly, two individuals are mentioned. Explain that, if you can.

 

[KingdomRose]

EE,

Its hard to quote your content, when the whole post is in a quote box. You should also know a Unitarian answer is simple...and is just redundant.....of course there is only One God, and One special and Unique Son of God, Jesus. God shares his glory with his Messiah-Son....he share his glory and inheritance with His Messiah-Son (which make up the collective of his people)....hence the Son inherits all the Father has.

And the One GIVING the glory would always be superior to the one RECEIVING the glory. (John 17:1-5) Jesus never has had MORE glory than Jehovah, or even as much.

 

[Bright Raven]

And the One GIVING the glory would always be superior to the one RECEIVING the glory. (John 17:1-5) Jesus never has had MORE glory than Jehovah, or even as much.

God has said that no one but Him may receive glory. Yet;

John 17:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

[KingdomRose]

As I understand Jesus is god not the God.

Yes. Only the Father, YHWH, is THE God, the Most High (Psalm 83:18, KJV). Jesus is "a god," meaning that he is a powerful, important individual. That is what "god" means, and refers to all manner of individuals, including human judges, angels, the emperor, etc.

 

[freelight]

UNI-versal JOY...............

UNI-versal JOY...............

Yes. Only the Father, YHWH, is THE God, the Most High (Psalm 83:18, KJV). Jesus is "a god," meaning that he is a powerful, important individual. That is what "god" means, and refers to all manner of individuals, including human judges, angels, the emperor, etc.

Indeed, which is why the translation of "a god" in John 1:1 is a possible acceptable translation, along with the "was God",...each translation has its supports, nuances, etc. The key concept for all Christian theists is that 'God' was in Christ reconciling himself to the world, reconciling all humanity,...Jesus was the revelation of God in the flesh, to all, to the world, and as a witness to all other worlds in this local universe and the cosmos beyond,...hence his revelation is of central import as far as God revealing himself to us! All else is but our various descriptions about it, to which man has divided and put into catagories, various 'isms' and 'arians' I'm more of a cosmopolit-arian -

and more......

 

[freelight]

God has said that no one but Him may receive glory. Yet;

John 17:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

As I've contended,....Jesus is NOT diminished in any way, in a traditional Arian Christology. God is God. He has a Son. The ONLY ones contending against this view, seeing it as faulty.....are guess who? - either way,...even if want to DEIFY Jesus to undue extremes, or even just endow him with so much divinity,...this is but your own doctrinal purport....your own appropriating. Scripture supports a variety of interpretation on Jesus humanity and divinity. Most arguments are just metaphysical engagements, mathematical assumptions, % evaluations,...those measurements vary - but 'God' remains unchanging in nature, essence and character.

Yes, 'God' is 'echad'. - venerating His Messiah-Son with godly honor because He is the logos of God, is only natural, but it does not make Jesus God the Most High, Our Universal FATHER (YHWH). - the logos of God is ever distinct from God, even though he is 'divine' by origination, relationship and function.

 

[KingdomRose]

God has said that no one but Him may receive glory. Yet;

John 17:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

That scripture does not say what you are saying. The Father gave Jesus glory, and it doesn't say that Jesus had the same amount of glory as is afforded the Father. The Father GAVE Jesus what glory Jesus had. If the Father hadn't GIVEN Jesus any glory, Jesus wouldn't have any glory. How much glory did Jesus have before the world was? It doesn't stipulate, and it certainly gives no indication that it equaled the Father's glory.

 

[Ktoyou]

Do you believe Jesus is also God?

Then it makes two Gods.

simple simple milkshake!

The nature of God is more complex.

 

[Ktoyou]

That scripture does not say what you are saying. The Father gave Jesus glory, and it doesn't say that Jesus had the same amount of glory as is afforded the Father. The Father GAVE Jesus what glory Jesus had. If the Father hadn't GIVEN Jesus any glory, Jesus wouldn't have any glory. How much glory did Jesus have before the world was? It doesn't stipulate, and it certainly gives no indication that it equaled the Father's glory.

If your thinking made any sense, they are two guys, then who is the mother?

 

[Bright Raven]

That scripture does not say what you are saying. The Father gave Jesus glory, and it doesn't say that Jesus had the same amount of glory as is afforded the Father. The Father GAVE Jesus what glory Jesus had. If the Father hadn't GIVEN Jesus any glory, Jesus wouldn't have any glory. How much glory did Jesus have before the world was? It doesn't stipulate, and it certainly gives no indication that it equaled the Father's glory.

He does not give His glory to another.

Isaiah 42:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


Isaiah 48:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

He does not give His glory to another.

Isaiah 42:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


Isaiah 48:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

He did not give His Glory to any other than His Son--


Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


LA

 

[Bright Raven]

He did not give His Glory to any other than His Son--


Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


LA

He gives glory to the Son because the Son is God.

 

[KingdomRose]

God has said that no one but Him may receive glory. Yet;

John 17:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Not true. Jehovah said that He wouldn't SHARE His glory with anyone.....that is, no one could ever have the SAME AMOUNT OF GLORY OR THE SAME TYPE OF GLORY THAT HE HAS. Jesus was GIVEN glory by the Father, because Jesus deserved it, as His only begotten Son and the one who created everything with Him. But that glory was never the SAME glory that the Father had.

 

[Bright Raven]

Not true. Jehovah said that He wouldn't SHARE His glory with anyone.....that is, no one could ever have the SAME AMOUNT OF GLORY OR THE SAME TYPE OF GLORY THAT HE HAS. Jesus was GIVEN glory by the Father, because Jesus deserved it, as His only begotten Son and the one who created everything with Him. But that glory was never the SAME glory that the Father had.

:chuckle:

 

[Bright Raven]

Not true. Jehovah said that He wouldn't SHARE His glory with anyone.....that is, no one could ever have the SAME AMOUNT OF GLORY OR THE SAME TYPE OF GLORY THAT HE HAS. Jesus was GIVEN glory by the Father, because Jesus deserved it, as His only begotten Son and the one who created everything with Him. But that glory was never the SAME glory that the Father had.

Only God receives glory.

 

[KingdomRose]

If your thinking made any sense, they are two guys, then who is the mother?

Jehovah has no parent. He has always been. If you would study the Bible you would know that. Jesus is God's "only-begotten" Son---the very first thing created by Jehovah, and the ONLY thing created by Jehovah alone. (No mothers involved.)