ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

godrulz

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Z Man said:
Everyone who argues for freewill.

Let me ask it another way:

Is it more important that God let fate rest in our hands or His?


"Fate" is a false god or something worthy of Islam, not Christianity.

God has ultimate control of the universe. In His sovereignty, He chose a creation that is not deterministic or fatalistic. His control is providential, responsive, creative and gives significant freedom to others in order to foster reciprocal love relationships. This is a greater God than one who must always get His way and control every detail to bring His purposes to pass.
 

Z Man

New member
godrulz said:
"Fate" is a false god or something worthy of Islam, not Christianity.
Whatever. You know what I meant.
God has ultimate control of the universe. In His sovereignty, He chose a creation that is not deterministic or fatalistic. His control is providential, responsive, creative and gives significant freedom to others in order to foster reciprocal love relationships. This is a greater God than one who must always get His way and control every detail to bring His purposes to pass.
Blah, blah, blah...

Where is your proof?
 

godrulz

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Z Man said:
There you have it - you said it plain and clear for all to see. It is obvious that Godrulz has just denied believing in the Scriptures. He said it himself right here by denying Exodus 4:11.

Godrulz, if you do not believe in Scripture, we have nothing more to discuss. It would only be fruitless. Hence probably why anything I post concerning Scriptures doesn't matter to you anyways - you continue to post mere opinions, not facts.

My proof lies with Scripture; where is yours?


Do not confuse your subjective interpretation of Scripture with an accurate translation/interpretation of it. You make the same mistake when you jump on KJV mistranslation about God doing 'evil', not recognizing that it is referring to natural disaster sent in righteous judgment, not moral evil. Many false beliefs and religions have been started over superficial proof texting and reading one's preconceived idea into texts that do not say that at all. Satan quotes Scripture, but it is out of context or indefensible with proper exegesis.

Try looking at non-Calvinistic commentaries for a more biblical interpretation of your pet texts.
 

Freak

New member
Lighthouse said:
Why des God allow you to be blind on certain issues?
I'd rather not give my thoughts on the issue. Jesus tells us in the one case, "that the works of God should be revealed in him."
 

godrulz

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Dr. Gregory Boyd "Is God to blame? Beyond pat answers to the problem of suffering"

Ex. 4:11 (paraphrase of a few of his thoughts):

Some say infirmities are specifically willed by God. Jesus/Gospels diagnose muteness, deafness, blindness, etc. as directly or indirectly coming from the devil (warfare vs blueprint model). Jesus demonstrated God's will for the people by removing them (opposes evil vs affirm it as God's will).

- Interpret Exodus in light of the ministry of Jesus (God). The Father (supposedly controls Satan) does not oppose the Son (who opposes Satan). It is a duplicity to say that the Father's will is done by Satan and also done by Jesus who opposes Satan/Father's will?!

- Context....Moses argued against God's decision to use him to speak (he was slow of speech). God was frustrated with Moses in light of the miracles He had used to demonstrate His ability to overcome obstacles/objections. In this context, God rhetorically asks Moses "who gives speech to mortals or makes deaf/blind?" It is unlikely this statement is meant to be taken as a metaphysical explanation of why people are deaf/mute (how many become so through natural illness, injury, accidents, assaults, etc.?).

-Notice what God does not say in this passage. God speaks of the human condition in general terms. He doesn't say He picks and choses which individuals wil be born deaf or blind (many become so later in life). He simply asserts that He is the Creator of the kind of world in which some people become disabled (don't forget the consequences of the Fall and Satan).

- The point of the statement is that Moses needed to know that the Creator was able to work around all obstacles to achieve His objectives. This verse does not teach that the Lord is the direct cause of every instance of afflications (is getting AIDS from blood transfusions God's hand? Is self-castration by a mentally ill person or an assailant an act of God or His will?).

- There is one God in the OT, not conflicting gods. God is like an ancient Near Eastern Monarch, the ultimate source of everything, whether He wills it directly or not. The Lord emphasizes this to show Moses that his speech impediment is no problem. But He is not thereby denying what later revelation will make clear: namely, infirmities such as these originate from Satan (or consequences of accidents or fallen humanity or environment, etc.), and God wants to empower human mediators to free people from these infirmities. The sick will be among us (not by God's design or intention...it is not God's fault if a drunk driver maims someone). God is also among us and is able to redemptively intervene to bring God from a bad circumstance (not intended, caused, or willed by God).
 

godrulz

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Jn. 9:1-3 We ordinarily cannot know why individuals suffer as they do (my wife as MS...not necessarily caused by Satan, certainly not by God, perhaps virus trigger?). But in light of God's revelation in Christ, our assumption should be that their suffering is something we should oppose in the name of God rather than accepting it as coming from God (not His will nor intention...otherwise, why not heal everyone all the time?). We should not assume God is punishing people for sin by making them sick. Some godly people suffer, while evil people seem to prosper (Ps. 73).

The correct question is to find out what we can do to bring God's redemptive will into the situation to alleviate suffering (inevitable in a fallen world) and to glorify God (He opposes evil, not affirms it as His will...warfare vs blueprint model). How do we respond so His will is done in earth as it is in heaven? How can we bring glory to God in this circumstance, not blame God for it so He can be glorified. God has endless opportunity to be glorified in man's self-caused circumstances. He does not have to be made responsible or causative for rebellion or the wiles of Satan to kill, rob, destroy. God has an enemy and a rebellious creation. It is misguided to blame God for starving kids (vs corrupt political systems/individuals opposed by God vs willed by Him).
 

Z Man

New member
godrulz said:
Do not confuse your subjective interpretation of Scripture with an accurate translation/interpretation of it.
I never interpreted - I merely quoted.
You make the same mistake when you jump on KJV mistranslation about God doing 'evil', not recognizing that it is referring to natural disaster sent in righteous judgment, not moral evil.
First of all, the verse in Isaiah 45:7 does not say that God does evil - it says God creates evil. Secondly, I have never believed nor promoted the idea that God commits moral evil acts, or does evil in any way.

God can do anything He wills. He can't be wrong for anything He does because who is to judge the Almighty? Will you? Will the angels? Will Satan? I think not. God may ordain that Joseph's brothers sell him into slavery, but it was for a greater cause. However, the brothers who committed the act were wrong! They sinned in their hearts (Gen. 50:20). God ordained that His Son be put to death for our salvation, but woe be unto those who crucified Him! Though it was the will of God, the people who led Christ to death meant evil against Him (Acts 4:27-28). Jesus Himself declares that He must be betrayed as the Scriptures have foretold, but woe be unto the man who will betray Him. Though God ordained it, Judas was guilty (Matt. 26:24). Jesus told Peter he would deny Him thrice. When it happened, Peter knew he was guilty and wept (Matt. 26:34, 75).

God did no "evil" in ordaining that Joseph's brothers sell him into slavery; his brothers did. God did no "evil" in ordaining that His own Son be put to death; we did. God did no "evil" in ordaining that Judas betray Christ; Judas did. God did no "evil" in ordaining that Peter deny Him thrice; Peter did.
Many false beliefs and religions have been started over superficial proof texting and reading one's preconceived idea into texts that do not say that at all.
Are you saying Exodus 4:11 DOES NOT say God creates the deaf/mute/blind? Because last time I checked, I'm pretty sure that's what it says (unless it's in some secret code that only you have the interpretation for.... ).
 
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Z Man

New member
godrulz said:
Dr. Gregory Boyd "Is God to blame? Beyond pat answers to the problem of suffering" ...
Is this the guy you get your ideas from? No wonder....

His exegesis on Ex 4:11 is a lot like the explanations you give in many of your posts - a bunch of hogwash. All it contains is his opinion and wishful thinking. For example:
In this context, God rhetorically asks Moses "who gives speech to mortals or makes deaf/blind?" It is unlikely this statement is meant to be taken as a metaphysical explanation of why people are deaf/mute.
Unlikely? Why? Because it flies in the face of his made up theology? I want something more than some lunatics opinions.

Another example of Dr. Boyd's 'wishful thinking' concerning Ex. 4:11:
[God] simply asserts that He is the Creator of the kind of world in which some people become disabled.
Where on God's green earth does it ever say such a thing in Ex. 4:11? As you so eloquently stated earlier, and I quote, "many false beliefs and religions have been started over superficial proof texting and reading one's preconceived idea into texts that do not say that at all." Boy, if this last statement from Dr. Boyd doesn't prove your point, I don't know what does!
 

godrulz

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I paraphrased some of his thoughts. They are not in quotations. I also added many of my own statements and thoughts as I went along, including the last one you object to. Blame me, not Boyd.

Your interpretation of Ex. 4:11 means that if I fail to wear safety glasses and get an object in my eye, it is a direct intention of God or caused by God? Many children in other countries go blind due to lack of basic medicine or drops at birth (pick up infection from birth canal). These things are preventable. Your ideas of determinism or omnicausality or not defensible. If a person stabs someone in the eye while they are drunk (one of my paramedic calls), do you see Ex. 4:11 as the answer or is it a volitional act/accident due to genuine free will of humans?
 

Z Man

New member
godrulz said:
I paraphrased some of his thoughts. They are not in quotations. I also added many of my own statements and thoughts as I went along, including the last one you object to. Blame me, not Boyd.
Well, either way, I've read Boyd's stuff before, and you're not far from his own ideas.
If a person stabs someone in the eye while they are drunk, do you see Ex. 4:11 as the answer or is it a volitional act/accident due to genuine free will of humans?
I see Ex. 4:11 as an explanation to why people are born deaf/mute/blind, and as an answer in acquiesce with Jesus's comment in John 9. The man in John 9 did not become blind due to an accident, or from some drunk man's rage - he was born blind. Jesus makes it clear that he was born blind so that God could be glorified. Ex. 4:11 agrees with Jesus's comment. In short, God created the man blind so Jesus could come and reveal God's glory by healing him.

I'm not trying to pursuade you that Ex. 4:11 proves that anyone who becames disabled in thier lifetime due to accidents, illness, or from some other person's maltreatment, is God's fault. I believe God ordains events that may lead a person to suffer or become 'disabled', but God is not to be judged evil for doing so. I explained this idea further in my previous post.
 

Evee

New member
There are two different groups that are truly hated by Christians.....One is Calvinists only a select few are saved.
Then there are the Universalist where God restores and saves everyone.
I would suppose there are more but those two come to mind. :yawn:
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
So Z, you go around to deaf people, blind people, people who can't speak and tell them, or say to yourself, "God in Action?"
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Z Man said:
Everyone who argues for freewill.

Let me ask it another way:

Is it more important that God let fate rest in our hands or His?
Who said anything about it being more important? :doh:
 
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