Are people born in Christ or born in sin?

Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
glorydaz said:
We are born into a world of sin. Sin came into the world, and we sin when we choose evil over good.
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Typical Arminian/Dispy choice righteousness. Your choices are always wrong even when you choose things that are good! I ate a vegan/gluten-free/taste-free piece of cardboard today! I'm rackin' up those Karma points, God is gonna bless me for sure.
 
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Samie

New member
jsanford108 said:
Rather than provide such a list, here is a link to a quick google search result.
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Being-Born-In-Sin
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None from the verses in your googled list disagrees with the belief that people are born in Christ instead of born in sin.

How could those verses teach that people are born in sin? If they do, then they will go against Christ's own words that apart from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5), he can't even believe:

1. If a man is born in sin, then he is born apart from Christ because sin separates man from God.
2. If a man is born apart from Christ, then he is born not in Christ and he cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit.
3. If a man cannot bear fruit, then he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.
4. If a man cannot have faith, then he cannot believe because faith is needed to believe.
5. Therefore, if a man is born in sin, he cannot believe.

It necessarily follows that your understanding of your googled verses as proving that people are born in sin is flawed. Why? Because people are capable of believing, and therefore can do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING. And that simply proves they are already in Christ PRIOR to their believing.
 
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Samie

New member
iamaberean said:

1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
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If in the phrase you bolded the apostle Paul actually meant what you want him to mean that people are born in sin, then the apostle contradicted Christ's words in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son (Luke 15:1-24), that people start out life NOT lost.

Before the sheep got lost, it was with its shepherd in the sheepfold.
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us. We start out in life NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be In Christ. But we all sinned. That's why are enjoined to repent (Luke 13:3, 5).
 
J

jsanford108

New member
Samie said:
None from the verses in your googled list disagrees with the belief that people are born in Christ instead of born in sin.

How could those verses teach that people are born in sin? If they do, then they will go against Christ's own words that apart from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5), he can't even believe:

1. If a man is born in sin, then he is born apart from Christ because sin separates man from God.
2. If a man is born apart from Christ, then he is born not in Christ and he cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit.
3. If a man cannot bear fruit, then he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.
4. If a man cannot have faith, then he cannot believe because faith is needed to believe.
5. Therefore, if a man is born in sin, he cannot believe.

It necessarily follows that your understanding of your googled verses as proving that people are born in sin is flawed. Why? Because people are capable of believing, and therefore can do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING. And that simply proves they are already in Christ PRIOR to their believing.
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How can a person be born in Christ before being born?

You answer must be the Calvinist idea of election. Otherwise, a person must be born naturally before they can be reborn spiritually.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
 
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iamaberean

New member
Samie said:
If in the phrase you bolded the apostle Paul actually meant what you want him to mean that people are born in sin, then the apostle contradicted Christ's words in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son (Luke 15:1-24), that people start out life NOT lost.

Before the sheep got lost, it was with its shepherd in the sheepfold.
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us. We start out in life NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be In Christ. But we all sinned. That's why are enjoined to repent (Luke 13:3, 5).
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God's word was first written to the children of Israel, with whom he had a covenant, not to any others. Because they were all decedents of Adam they were all born in sin, but they had a promise of a Messiah that would give them back the life that Adam lost.

In the Epistles the Apostle's word was directed to Christians, those that had believed and had been born again. They are the ones who would never die and their children were sanctified.

The bible was written to God's people. Don't make it out to be to everybody, for it is not.
 
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Samie

New member
jsanford108 said:
How can a person be born in Christ before being born?

You answer must be the Calvinist idea of election. Otherwise, a person must be born naturally before they can be reborn spiritually.
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When was Christ crucified? Did you say when He was nailed to the cross? So, why does the Bible say He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?

Did Christ die for you? If you say yes, then ask yourself "how could He when I was not yet born then?"

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Isaiah 55:8-9 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
 
S

Samie

New member
nikolai_42 said:
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalm 58:3
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The catch phrase is "go astray". To "go astray" implies that one starts out "not astray". Just like in Jesus' parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son. see Luke 15:1 -24.

Before the sheep got lost, it was with its shepherd in the sheepfold.
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us. We start out in life NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be In Christ. But we all sinned. That's why are enjoined to repent (Luke 13:3, 5).
 
S

Samie

New member
iamaberean said:
The bible was written to God's people. Don't make it out to be to everybody, for it is not.
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Were you one of God's people BEFORE you believed and became a believer?

If your answer is "No", then you were then NOT in Christ Who said APART from Him man can do NOTHING. So how were you able to do the act of believing while still NOT in Christ?

If your answer is "Yes", then non-believers are also children of God.
 
Evil.Eye.<(I)>

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

BANNED
Banned
Samie said:
Were you one of God's people BEFORE you believed and became a believer?

If your answer is "No", then you were then NOT in Christ Who said APART from Him man can do NOTHING. So how were you able to do the act of believing while still NOT in Christ?

If your answer is "Yes", then non-believers are also children of God.
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Our Heavenly Daddy is no "Absent Father". He even Loves the ignorant and faith challenged as well.

I appreciate your application of John 15:5. :e4e:

The idea that God stood among us and told us to "Love our enemies" and "what good is it to "only" Love those that Love you."... cinched it up for me.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Samie said:
When was Christ crucified? Did you say when He was nailed to the cross? So, why does the Bible say He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?

Did Christ die for you? If you say yes, then ask yourself "how could He when I was not yet born then?"

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Isaiah 55:8-9 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
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Isaiah 42:9
Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.​
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Samie said:
Any direct answer whether people are born in sin or born in Christ?

If people are born in sin, then they are born apart from Christ because sin separates man from God.

If one is born APART from Christ, then he can do NOTHING, as Christ Himself EXPLICITLY said. So how come preachers ask people who they say are born apart from Christ and hence can do NOTHING, to do the acts of believing and accepting?
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Believing/accepting is not an "act" of man's, but a work of God. And, I would say, that you're not really understanding that text in John 15 as it was intended.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Epoisses said:
Typical Arminian/Dispy choice righteousness. Your choices are always wrong even when you choose things that are good! I ate a vegan/gluten-free/taste-free piece of cardboard today! I'm rackin' up those Karma points, God is gonna bless me for sure.
Click to expand...

Evil and good aren't pieces of candy. :chuckle:
 
I

iamaberean

New member
Samie said:
Were you one of God's people BEFORE you believed and became a believer?

If your answer is "No", then you were then NOT in Christ Who said APART from Him man can do NOTHING. So how were you able to do the act of believing while still NOT in Christ?

If your answer is "Yes", then non-believers are also children of God.
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No, non-believers are not God's children. So how does one become a child of God?

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
glorydaz said:
Which should put a lie to the claim that man has a sin nature.
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Yikes!

Jesus Christ was born fully Man, but conceived by the Spirit of God, which issued forth as a human being without sin. Fully Man but fully (sinless) God.

This is the sole and entire basis for His ability to advocate and save a remnant of humanity according to divine forensics (legal demands) and grace alone.

Without comprehension of the imputation of sin imposed by God upon all men due to the first Adam, can anyone appreciate the imputation of righteousness granted by the pure grace God, upon the spiritual offspring of the last Adam, Jesus Christ.

The lack of Gospel insight by TOL members, never fails to shock my heart and mind!!!
 
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