ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[Jerry Shugart]

"Elect according to the [prediction based on observation and reasoning] of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Pet.1:2).

Looks like a good fit.

If you are right then Peter is saying that the destiny of these men was determined "beforehand" by God based on His observations and reasoning. That supports the "settled" view and not an "open" view.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Putting aside any attempt to defend a theological position, what is your honest opinion about anyone making that kind of contract with that kind of foreknowledge?[/INDENT]

I have no reason to even attempt to defend that contract because I do not believe in the "settled" view. Instead, I object to the brand of "open" theology that is taught by men like Greg Boyd.

 

[genuineoriginal]

If you are right then Peter is saying that the destiny of these men was determined "beforehand" by God based on His observations and reasoning. That supports the "settled" view and not an "open" view.

The prognosis (not destiny) was determined during their lifetime based on God's observations of their hearts, and He had been observing them from the womb:

Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.​

Psalm 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

I have no reason to even attempt to defend that contract because I do not believe in the "settled" view.

I can see why you avoid the question.
If you believe in God being outside of time, the problem with the contract is even worse than it is with divine foreknowledge.
:wave2:

 

[godrulz]

In the Open View, God is infinitely intelligent and omniscient, knowing all that is knowable and knowing reality as it is.

Jerry is railing against a straw man of his own ignorance.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The prognosis (not destiny) was determined during their lifetime based on God's observations of their hearts, and He had been observing them from the womb:

No, according to your interpreation of the verse it was their status as "elect" which was detrmined by a prediction:

"Elect according to the [prediction based on observation and reasoning] of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Pet.1:2).

If you are right then their being "chosen" happened as a result of God's prediction. If you are right their destiny was determined before they believed.

Your conclusion supports the "settled" view and not the "open" view.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

In the Open View, God is infinitely intelligent and omniscient, knowing all that is knowable and knowing reality as it is.

Jerry is railing against a straw man of his own ignorance.

As usual you make your pronouncements based on nothing more than "godrulz says that it is true so therefore it must be true."

The fact that you said nothing which actually addresses what I said demonstrates that you really have nothing at all to back up your assertions.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No, according to your interpreation of the verse it was their status as "elect" which was detrmined by a prediction:

"Elect according to the [prediction based on observation and reasoning] of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Pet.1:2).

If you are right then their being "chosen" happened as a result of God's prediction. If you are right their destiny was determined before they believed.

Your conclusion supports the "settled" view and not the "open" view.

The "settled" view believes that knows what will happen before the creation of the world and does not allow God to wait until after a person is conceived before He can make a prediction about that person. In fact, the "settled" view does not allow God to make a prediction, it only allows Him to say what He has seen will happen.

The "open" view has no problem with God's ability to make a prediction based on what He observes when He examines a person in the womb.

My conclusion is based on the "open" view.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The "open" view has no problem with God's ability to make a prediction based on what He observes when He examines a person in the womb.

My conclusion is based on the "open" view.

I am not aware of anyone within Open Theism who says that a person's being chosen for salvation is a result of a "prediction."

Could you please quote any of the recognized leaders within the Open Theology community saying such a thing.

Besides that, the following verse makes it plain that a person is not chosen for salvation until he believes:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

 

[genuineoriginal]

I am not aware of anyone within Open Theism who says that a person's being chosen for salvation is a result of a "prediction."

Could you please quote any of the recognized leaders within the Open Theology community saying such a thing.

Besides that, the following verse makes it plain that a person is not chosen for salvation until he believes:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

You should read the verse more carefully, because you miss the focus on this part: "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"

 

[Lon]

Open Theists are primarily concerned with choosing the good part.

Luke 10 38Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. 39And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. 40But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. 41And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: 42But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.​

As I said and agreed, it isn't that God's qualities aren't important to OV. It is the positioning. This is a different slide in the presentation and isn't answering the question about the one we were looking at. It was very simple: Which was that particular primarily interested in for the OV argument?
Of course you can assert otherwise but the slide (previous post) doesn't lie.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You should read the verse more carefully, because you miss the focus on this part: "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"

I did not miss anything since I have already addressed that earlier. And at that time you had no comment (see post #3152, page 211 of this thread).

Let us look at the following verse and then I will repeat what I said:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).

This choosing is said to be "before the foundation of the world." Also, notice that Paul says, "chosen us 'in Him'."

That is exactly what Paul is referring to here:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "sanctification" is "consecration" and that word means "to separate from things profane and dedicate to God" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The following verse describes this consecration when believers are separated from things profane by the Spirit and dedicated to God:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the Body of Christ" (1 Cor.12:13,27).

Now back to the verse which speaks of the "foreknowledge" of God:

"Elect, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Pet.1:2).

It all fits together perfectly.

But since it does not fit your view you say that the Christian's being chosen to salvation is based on God's prediction and not His foreknowledge.

 

[Lon]

I claim reading scripture through a classical theology lens makes God sound disingenuous.
You claim that there is a difference between a conditional covenant and a prophecy.

I believe you previously used the "almanac from the future" argument to explain "divine foreknowledge", so we will create an example from that.

Ron Washington became manager for the Texas Rangers in the 2007 season. Assuming he had an "almanac from the future" which shows the results of the 2010 schedule, he makes the following "contract" (covenant) with the Texas Rangers:
"If the Texas Rangers win the 2010 World Series, then every member of the team in 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010 will receive a bonus equal to the salary they received for those years."

The "almanac from the future" gave Ron Washington the "divine foreknowledge" that the San Francisco Giants win the 2010 World Series 4-1 against the Texas Rangers, and Ron Washington knew that before making the contract with them in 2007.

Putting aside any attempt to defend a theological position, what is your honest opinion about anyone making that kind of contract with that kind of foreknowledge?

Before I answer, let me ask a question for you to entertain/dwell on for awhile: What/who is your question primarily concerned with? God or man?

Now to the question: Does it matter? I have no idea what motivation lies behind his action. Until such a time, no problem. Implication isn't enough and I try not to question the actions of God, they are always right no matter what.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Before I answer, let me ask a question for you to entertain/dwell on for awhile: What/who is your question primarily concerned with? God or man?

Now to the question: Does it matter? I have no idea what motivation lies behind his action. Until such a time, no problem. Implication isn't enough and I try not to question the actions of God, they are always right no matter what.

I do not question the actions of God as written in the Bible because I trust God to do the right thing.
I do question what "classical theism" claim are the actions of God, such as their claim that He makes conditional covenants after having already seen whether the conditions of the covenant will be met or not.

You never said that the example implied anything, and you avoided giving an honest answer to the question.
What is the implication you are talking about? Please state it clearly so there is no mistake..

Ron Washington became manager for the Texas Rangers in the 2007 season. Assuming he had an "almanac from the future" which shows the results of the 2010 schedule, he makes the following "contract" (covenant) with the Texas Rangers:
"If the Texas Rangers win the 2010 World Series, then every member of the team in 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010 will receive a bonus equal to the salary they received for those years."

The "almanac from the future" gave Ron Washington the "divine foreknowledge" that the San Francisco Giants win the 2010 World Series 4-1 against the Texas Rangers, and Ron Washington knew that before making the contract with them in 2007.

Putting aside any attempt to defend a theological position, what is your honest opinion about anyone making that kind of contract with that kind of foreknowledge?​

 

[genuineoriginal]

It all fits together perfectly.

But since it does not fit your view you say that the Christian's being chosen to salvation is based on God's prediction and not His foreknowledge.

You mistake my view, but that is understandable since you have consistently tried to twist what I say to make it fit the "settled" view.

Only those that endure until the end will gain the promised salvation.

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.​

No one gains more than a promise of salvation prior to the return of Jesus.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.​

We are chosen of God when He examines us and predicts that we are able to attain salvation.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.​

But in order to gain the salvation, we must be counted as worthy of God.

22 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:​

The end for the ones that have been called and chosen who fail to overcome will be worse.

2 Peter 2 20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.​

 

[DFT_Dave]

We are examining the ideas of what is known as Open Theology. And I am using their own ideas in regard to God's relationship to "time" so you should have no objection.

But since you have no answers to what I said you attempt to change the subject and talk about something else.

Yes, and it is equally irrational as a virgin birth.

And it is equally irrational to think that there can be a speeding up of time with God at the same time as a slowing down of time:

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Pet.3:8).

Since mankind has always existed in "time" then we rationalize that there was never an existence where "time" did not exist even though the Scriptures tell us something different:

"Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness—in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior" (Titus 1:1-2).

Again, the following verse is speaking about God choosing "individuals" for salvation because it is only 'individuals" who believe the truth:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

Since the "belief in the truth" speaks of "individuals" then the "salvation" also speaks of an "individual" salvation and not a "collective" salvation.

Not only that, but we see that the choosing was as a consequence of God's foreknowledge:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).

I, and others, have given you answers, you just don't like them, fair enough, but you're not being honest when you say you have not been given answers.

--Dave

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Only those that endure until the end will gain the promised salvation.

The verse is speaking about a physical deliverance that will happen at the end of the great tribulation. After all, were are told that those who are believing now will not perish:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).

No one gains more than a promise of salvation prior to the return of Jesus.

So the lady to whom the Lord Jesus addressed these words was not saved?:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).

We are chosen of God when He examines us and predicts that we are able to attain salvation.

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Which Greek expert can you cite who says that the Greek word translated "foreknowledge" means "prediction"?

But in order to gain the salvation, we must be counted as worthy of God.

22 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

So believing is not enough to be saved even though the Lord Jesus said that those who "believe" have been given eternal life and will not be judged?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

The end for the ones that have been called and chosen who fail to overcome will be worse.

Those that deny the eternal security of the Christian ask, "If this passage refers to people who have eternal security then how would it have been better for them NOT to have known the way of righteousness?"

Let us look at the following verse: "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Pet.2:21).

These people were obviously saved because they knew "the way of righteousness", which is by the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ:

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death...That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Ro.8:2,4).

They knew the "way of righteousness" was by denying "worldy lusts" and "ungodliness":

"Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:12).

However, after being saved and knowing the "way of righteousness" they turned away from the "holy commandment". The Greek word translated "commandment" means "of the whole body of moral precepts of Christianity...2 Pet. ii. 21" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The words of Peter at 2 Peter 2:20-21 are speaking of some Christians who were born again and they are described as "those who are just escaping from those who live in error" (v.18) and as having escaped the pollutions of the world (v.20). However,some false teachers had "promised them liberty" (v.19) and allured them through the lusts of their flesh into believing a false teaching in regard to "morals". This false teaching is probably the same thing that Paul refers to at Romans 3:8--that the Christians were falsely accused of teaching "Let us do evil that good may come." This was a false teaching that said that the more we sin then the more that grace will abound, and was based on a false interpretation of the words at Romans 6:1-"shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?"

So the people who had escaped moral pollution by the knowledge of the gospel as well as the moral teachings that urge the Christian to keep himself "holy" had been deceived into believing that they should continue to sin so that grace would abound even more. They returned to their old way of life (v.22). They are worse off now and it would have been better if they had never even heard the moral commandments at first because now they have no excuse for their behavior.

But the wiords here stand and cannot be denied:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I, and others, have given you answers, you just don't like them, fair enough, but you're not being honest when you say you have not been given answers.

I meant to say "reasonable" answer so excuse me. In my honest opinion you never provided any "reasonable" answers.

For instance your answer to 2 Thessalonians 2:13 was that the "you" in the verse is plural. But you never answered me when I said that of course it is plural because the epistle is addressed to more than one person:

"Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess.1:1).

You never had a "reasonable" answer that the choosing, which is described at Ephesians 1:4 as being "before the foundation of the world," was in regard to individuals:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

it is only "individuals" who believe the truth and it is "individuals" who are saved when they believe:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).

So before foundation of the world God chose individuals for salvation and that directly contradicts the brand of "open" theology promoted by people like Greg Boyd.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The verse is speaking about a physical deliverance that will happen at the end of the great tribulation.

Check again:

Matthew 10 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 9Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. 11And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. 16Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 17But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 18And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. 21And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.​

After all, were are told that those who are believing now will not perish:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).

So, where are all those believers who have not perished since the first century living now?

So the lady to whom the Lord Jesus addressed these words was not saved?:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).

Her faith "saved" her because she was given the promise of salvation and her name was written in the book of rememberance.
If her faith becomes shipwrecked at a later time and she becomes reprobate, her name will be blotted out and she will face the judgment to come without being protected by the blood of Jesus.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Check again:

but he that endureth to the end shall be saved

Are you not aware that the Greek word translated "saved" can mean to be delivered? By the context we can see that the reference to "salvation" is in regard "deliverance" from persecution:

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake...But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt.24:9,13).

By the "context" the word "end" can only be understood as referring to the end of the great tribulation and the following verse describes the deliverance that will happen at the end of that tribulation:

"In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem" (Zech.12:8-9).

So, where are all those believers who have not perished since the first century living now?

Let us look at the following verse:

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life" (Jn.3:15).

The meaning of the Greek word translated "perish" in this verse means "to incur the loss of true or eternal life: to be delivered up to eternal misery: Jn. iii. 15" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So the words at John 3:15 are saying that those who are believing will not be delivered up to eternal misery.

You say that they can.

Her faith "saved" her because she was given the promise of salvation and her name was written in the book of rememberance.

But you said earlier that until the Lord Jesus returns no one "gains more than a promise of salvation":

No one gains more than a promise of salvation prior to the return of Jesus.

Is not being saved more than just the promise of salvation? Of course it is. It is actually receiving the promise. And now you admit that the lady was saved prior to the Lord Jesus' return even though earlier you said that no one could be saved until His return.

But in order to gain the salvation, we must be counted as worthy of God.

22 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

So believing is not enough to be saved even though the Lord Jesus said that those who "believe" have been given eternal life and will not be judged?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

We are chosen of God when He examines us and predicts that we are able to attain salvation.

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Again, I will ask you:

Which Greek expert can you cite who says that the Greek word translated "foreknowledge" means "prediction"?