ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[Lighthouse]

STP-
Does the Bible tell us that God foreknew each and every individual, or does it merely tell us that He foreknew the Body of Christ would be saved?

 

[DFT_Dave]

The things which I put in "bold" are not the same.

Yes, Psa 78 "I will utter dark sayings of old, which we have heard and known...

Matt 13 "I will utter things (dark sayings) kept secret...

Why were the sayings that were once known and were to be pasted on to future generations now not known in Jesus day? In the Greek it says "απο καταβολης" because of the katabolo, which cannot mean from the foundation of the world, the word for world does not even appear in the Greek text. Katabolo means to be cast down not to build up.

Elseth in his book, "Did God Know", says this verse should be translated, "I will utter things (dark sayings) kept secret because of the disintegration of Israel, since that is who he is addressing in this text.

That would include a moral disintegration or degeneration.

--Dave

 

[godrulz]

Concerning Titus 1:2

2 επ ελπιδι ζωης αιωνιου ην επηγγειλατο ο αψευδης θεος προ χρονων αιωνιων --before ages of time

NASB translate: "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago"

RSV translate: "hope of eternal life which God, who never lies, promised ages ago"

YLT translates: "hope of life age-during, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages,

It would not be accurate to translate this verse as "before the world began" because the greek does not use the word for world.

The greek does not say "before time began" either.

--Dave

'before times eternal'....this is an idiom, not a proof of timelessness...=long ages ago, etc.

(any sense of before time began would relate to the measure of time at creation, not fundamental time as everlasting duration concept).

 

[godrulz]

Just look at the texts I have posted, before you make a judgment. It's clear that God repents of somethings but not everything.

--Dave

Both motifs are seen in I Sam. 15.

As well, prophecies can be conditional or unconditional. God would not remain righteous in the face of changing contingencies if He did not change sometimes, consistent with His character. Other times, it would be fickle and wrong (like men) to change His mind. Will not is not cannot.

 

[godrulz]

STP-
Does the Bible tell us that God foreknew each and every individual, or does it merely tell us that He foreknew the Body of Christ would be saved?

Election is corporate vs individual...God purposed to have a people before creation, from the beginning of creation. He does not predestine nor foreknow which non-extant individuals will eventually become part of the group based on freely receiving vs rejecting His plan. Non-Calvinists should embrace this as biblical if they deny decretal, deterministic views in favor of relational, free will theism (Jerry is inconsistent or he is being influenced by Pam and Jim Hilston).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

God would not remain righteous in the face of changing contingencies if He did not change sometimes, consistent with His character.

Here are verses that speak of the very nature of God and you haven't answered a single one of them:

The verses which speak of the very nature of God forbids the thought that He repents or changes in any way:

"For I am the Lord, I change not" ( Mal. 3:6).

"I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent" (Ezek. 24:14).

"With whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (Jms.1:17).

"God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of a man that he should repent" (Num.3:19).

You fail to distinguish between verses that speak of God's nature (which should be taken literally) and verses in a narrative that show Him repenting (which should be taken in a figurative sense).

Your approach is inconsistent and you must ignore or change the meaning of the verses which speak of His nature.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He does not predestine nor foreknow which non-extant individuals will eventually become part of the group based on freely receiving vs rejecting His plan.

You assert that God does not know which individuals will be saved based on His foreknowledge. However, here Paul says that God has chosen from the beginning those who will saved based on their faith:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

It is individuals who believe so therefore from the beginning the Lord has chosen individuals who believe.

 

[godrulz]

Here are verses that speak of the very nature of God and you haven't answered a single one of them:

The verses which speak of the very nature of God forbids the thought that He repents or changes in any way:

"For I am the Lord, I change not" ( Mal. 3:6).

"I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent" (Ezek. 24:14).

"With whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (Jms.1:17).

"God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of a man that he should repent" (Num.3:19).

You fail to distinguish between verses that speak of God's nature (which should be taken literally) and verses in a narrative that show Him repenting (which should be taken in a figurative sense).

Your approach is inconsistent and you must ignore or change the meaning of the verses which speak of His nature.

Yikes, prooftexting, batman (you are not stupid, but can be stubborn). These have a context and fit with Open Theism. They talk about God's constancy of character vs fickleness (cf. Jesus same yesterday, today, forever does not mean he is absolutely immutable in light of the incarnation). They also talk about specific times when it would be unwise for God to change His mind, so He does not. The changing mind motif (39x) only has to be dismissed as figurative to retain your wrong view. They can be taken at face value (and should be, since they would convey no truth even if figurative or negate a way to say God changes His mind if He theoretically did) if you change your view to a more biblical, coherent one.

Stating your view forcefully and disparaging other views does not make you right (I am learning). God is personal and you are reducing Him to a Platonic, philosophical idea.

The simplicity of Scripture should be enough to make the lights go on (you illustrate how far people go to not take things at face value if they do not match wrong views). If not, there are many academic articles dealing with these things. Don't confuse nature/being with volition. His attributes of wonder unique to Himself (omni, eternality, etc.) are different than His personal attributes (will, intellect, emotions, etc.). God can and does change His mind in some cases, while in other cases, He refuses to change His mind. I can take I Sam. 15 literally, but you must arbitrarily make one phrase literal and the other figurative despite no exegetical cue to do so. Change your view, not the Bible.

The other dual motif of Open Theism (similar idea) is that some of the future is settled/known, while other aspects are left unsettled/unknown by God. Calvinists proof text one motif and make the other one figurative, just as you are doing in another area. Open Theists are more consistent (we also recognize figurative language, but only when demanded by the context; normative literal is the way to go usually) and affirm the literal texts in both cases. Change the wrong view, not Scripture (clinging to a wrong view of sovereignty, free will, predestination is flawed if a more biblical view is available that can take clear verses at face value). Don't underestimate the philosophical, Augustinian, etc. influences on some areas of classical theology (relating to God's attributes and ways). You are non-mainstream on MAD, so jump in this one to test it...the water is warm (er).

 

[godrulz]

You assert that God does not know which individuals will be saved based on His foreknowledge. However, here Paul says that God has chosen from the beginning those who will saved based on their faith:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

It is individuals who believe so therefore from the beginning the Lord has chosen individuals who believe.

He is talking to a group that is believing and part of the corporate elect. Reading decretal, Calvinistic unconditional election or Arminian SFK into the text is not necessary in light of other verses/principles. We tend to bring our filter to the text, but I don't believe the grammar or context demands your assumptions.

I have a feeling you are going to take me out of your will for disagreeing with you? So be it. Am I still on the Christmas gift list though?:rain:

 

[Totton Linnet]

You can't seperate foreknowledge, predestination, election, calling and glorification they all hang together predestination and election and calling stems from foreknowledge.

Even if you assert that predestination to form the body of Christ were a corporate affair and I profoundly disagree, all nature indeed creation whether spiritual or natural is aghast at such a thought, it is very akin to the idea of the BIG BANG theory that after this massive explosion all matter and particles of matter in some strange [and wholly unscientific] way came together to form a unique working universe.

So would the body of Christ be, wholly unco-ordinated and dysfunctional, you may say but that is what appears...well so does the universe to an untrained mind, with spiritual eyes we know differently....and the reason the church [the body of Christ] does not function in an even more co-ordinate fashion has historical reasons that are remediable, if the will existed.

What I am saying is that election is proven to be according to foreknowledge and predestination by our calling, which in EVERY INSTANCE is personal and different, i.e. Mother Theresa's call was entirely different from John Wesley's or mine.

Our eventual glorification must also be in a measure by degrees I do not expect to have the same glory as the above mentioned saints.

In as much then as our call is individual and different so must our election and predestination be.

 

[DFT_Dave]

You can't seperate foreknowledge, predestination, election, calling and glorification they all hang together predestination and election and calling stems from foreknowledge.

If God were "timeless" nothing comes before or after anything else, God does everything all at once, nothing "stems" from anything else right?

--Dave

 

[Totton Linnet]

If God were "timeless" nothing comes before or after anything else, God does everything all at once, nothing "stems" from anything else right?

--Dave

I almost defy anyone to define eternity Dave, it is [so far as I can tell] outside of our human ability to comprehend it or come to terms with. I just blows the mind, in a sense we know it by experience because we have recieved that life from God which is eternal...but that is more than just a thought or an idea or concept...I am not sure that ANYBODY else has come with a plausible definition...I know the fathers [so called] got their grubby little finite minds around most things but I don't read them.

Eternity so far as MY grubby little finite mind can understand is not timelessness although there is no time for God it is a state of infinite BEING "I am what am and I will be what will be" it is always present.

God creates time, we make a mistake in thinking that when Jesus comes time will be no more .... there are ages yet to come. God will create a new heaven and a new earth.

The very word PREdestination speaks about time or rather it speaks about BEFORE time ever was...which is why detractors from the doctrine change the name to determinism, God planned in eternity what will happen in time...but we have said there is no beginning or end with eternity...this is an eye of the needle truth...so with God He is always NOW "I am what am."

I have thought that NOW the very pinpoint of now is eternity.

God is always acting out His plan He is in this age always callng some Moses to confront the powers that hold His people in bondage, calling them, preparing them equiping them empowering them.

He is doing what we see Him doing from the beginning, calling light out of darkness and forming and shaping creating provision.

Jesus was in tune He said "what I see the Father doing that do I also."

Above all in seperating light from darkness God is acting according to His nature and the essence of predestiny to me is God's unchanging nature.

Regards Tots

 

[DFT_Dave]

I almost defy anyone to define eternity Dave, it is [so far as I can tell] outside of our human ability to comprehend it or come to terms with. I just blows the mind, in a sense we know it by experience because we have recieved that life from God which is eternal...but that is more than just a thought or an idea or concept...I am not sure that ANYBODY else has come with a plausible definition...I know the fathers [so called] got their grubby little finite minds around most things but I don't read them.

Eternity so far as MY grubby little finite mind can understand is not timelessness although there is no time for God it is a state of infinite BEING "I am what am and I will be what will be" it is always present.

God creates time, we make a mistake in thinking that when Jesus comes time will be no more .... there are ages yet to come. God will create a new heaven and a new earth.

The very word PREdestination speaks about time or rather it speaks about BEFORE time ever was...which is why detractors from the doctrine change the name to determinism, God planned in eternity what will happen in time...but we have said there is no beginning or end with eternity...this is an eye of the needle truth...so with God He is always NOW "I am what am."

I have thought that NOW the very pinpoint of now is eternity.

God is always acting out His plan He is in this age always callng some Moses to confront the powers that hold His people in bondage, calling them, preparing them equiping them empowering them.

He is doing what we see Him doing from the beginning, calling light out of darkness and forming and shaping creating provision.

Jesus was in tune He said "what I see the Father doing that do I also."

Above all in seperating light from darkness God is acting according to His nature and the essence of predestiny to me is God's unchanging nature.

Regards Tots

Do you see the contradiction, not just you, but what has been passed down to us?

Was there a "time in God" before he created time?

An active God intrinsically acts sequentially. His character is not activity, as you point out. If God does not do everything all at once there is time in God. If there is no time in God, if he is timeless, then he does everything all at once, nonsequentially. No mystery here.

--Dave

 

[Totton Linnet]

Do you see the contradiction, not just you, but what has been passed down to us?

Was there a "time in God" before he created time?

An active God intrinsically acts sequentially. His character is not activity, as you point out. If God does not do everything all at once there is time in God. If there is no time in God, if he is timeless, then he does everything all at once, nonsequentially. No mystery here.

--Dave

You have to explain prayer and how answered prayer dramatically affects events.

The bible says God after He had created He rested, Hebrews says all God's works were finished from the beginning of the world...we who have believed enter into His rest or His finished work.

I do see the link once again between natures and predestiny, the bible says God hardened Pharoah's heart but really it was Pharoah's nature that was amiss, those who opposed Jesus did so because their natures were opposed even as darkness shrinks from light. It is from that perspective that I understand predestiny.

A good tree will produce good fruit and an evil tree evil, what is not proven to me is that God planted the evil tree or made it evil. Which is what Calvin supposes when he says God predestined some to damnation, nay the many.

In the wheat an tares Jesus says it is the enemy who has done it, to the Pharisees He says "your father the devil"

But although God has ceased from His work in creating I cannot think He is either passive or impassive. He is actively bringing His word to pass, watching over it, watering it, nurturing it and above all protecting it.

When the light shines it is the darkness that flees...that creates stir.

 

[Clete]

Totton,

Would you agree that if a truth claim, including a theological one, where shown to be irrational that it would thereby be proven false?

 

[Lighthouse]

Didn't God command that static gods be destroyed, and show them to be false?

 

[godrulz]

Didn't God command that static gods be destroyed, and show them to be false?

There is a difference between a static, dead wooden idol/false god, and the Calvinistic triune Living God (who is misunderstood and misrepresented by Calvinists, but not denied as the Judeo-Christian spirit God/Creator). A wrong view of sovereignty/providence/immutability, etc. is not tantamount to reducing God to a stone idol (though I agree with the static implications and stand against them without falling into their pit of saying Open Theists have a false god...we don't, same triune God, but different understanding of His attributes and ways).

 

[Lighthouse]

There is a difference between a static, dead wooden idol/false god, and the Calvinistic triune Living God (who is misunderstood and misrepresented by Calvinists, but not denied as the Judeo-Christian spirit God/Creator). A wrong view of sovereignty/providence/immutability, etc. is not tantamount to reducing God to a stone idol (though I agree with the static implications and stand against them without falling into their pit of saying Open Theists have a false god...we don't, same triune God, but different understanding of His attributes and ways).

Thou art the master... of missing the point. False gods are static, the one true God is dynamic. That is my point. I never said Calvinists follow a false god. I do, however, say you do.

 

[DFT_Dave]

I almost defy anyone to define eternity Dave, it is [so far as I can tell] outside of our human ability to comprehend it or come to terms with. I just blows the mind, in a sense we know it by experience because we have recieved that life from God which is eternal...but that is more than just a thought or an idea or concept...I am not sure that ANYBODY else has come with a plausible definition...I know the fathers [so called] got their grubby little finite minds around most things but I don't read them.

Eternity so far as MY grubby little finite mind can understand is not timelessness although there is no time for God it is a state of infinite BEING "I am what am and I will be what will be" it is always present.

God creates time, we make a mistake in thinking that when Jesus comes time will be no more .... there are ages yet to come. God will create a new heaven and a new earth.

The very word PREdestination speaks about time or rather it speaks about BEFORE time ever was...which is why detractors from the doctrine change the name to determinism, God planned in eternity what will happen in time...but we have said there is no beginning or end with eternity...this is an eye of the needle truth...so with God He is always NOW "I am what am."

I have thought that NOW the very pinpoint of now is eternity.

God is always acting out His plan He is in this age always callng some Moses to confront the powers that hold His people in bondage, calling them, preparing them equiping them empowering them.

He is doing what we see Him doing from the beginning, calling light out of darkness and forming and shaping creating provision.

Jesus was in tune He said "what I see the Father doing that do I also."

Above all in seperating light from darkness God is acting according to His nature and the essence of predestiny to me is God's unchanging nature.

Regards Tots

I agree with everything you are saying in this post. My view that God has time or is not "timeless", has no time, works with what you are saying here. Are you one of us? Are you an open theist?

--Dave

 

[godrulz]

Thou art the master... of missing the point. False gods are static, the one true God is dynamic. That is my point. I never said Calvinists follow a false god. I do, however, say you do.

I follow the dynamic, triune God that you do. I reject the Calvinistic misrepresentation of God. I do not follow Allah (false god), Buddha, etc.

How is my God false? What area of doctrine of God/Christology do we disagree on? Deity of Christ? Resurrection of Christ? Virgin conception? Trinity?

Don't be a dope.:down: MAD and Exchanged Life are not the core doctrine of God/Christology (we have the same view on the latter or you are not a Christian).