ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[DFT_Dave]

But the following was a promise in regard to the Lord Jesus:

"The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be" (Gen.49:10).

How could man's rebellion nulify promises made by God in regard to Jesus Christ as King? Is God not capable of making a promise and then carrying out that promise?:

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Num.23:19).

I have shown that when it is said that God "repents" that the language is "figurative" and cannot be be interpreted as being "literal."

The verses which speak of the very nature of God forbids the thought that He repents or changes in any way:

"For I am the Lord, I change not" ( Mal. 3:6).

"I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent" (Ezek. 24:14).

"With whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (Jms.1:17).

"God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of a man that he should repent" (Num.3:19).

Your whole theology seems to be built on Gen 49 and the phrase that God will not repent. The scriptures show that there are both things that God has repented of and things that he will not repent of, you have considered only half of the truth. You have not shown that all the scripture that say God has repented are only figuative. The way to do that is to carefully look at the texts that say he has. So I will post again those texts for your evaluation.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

God cannot lie, but he can change his mind about what he promised us when we do not keep up our end of the bargain, when we rebell against him. All the promises from God from Adam, to Abraham, the nation of Israel, and concerning our salvation and the gift of eternal life can be nullified if we do nor regard the conditions they are based on. This is the story of the Bible from cover to cover.

God's blessings for Adam were conditional. God said to him if you eat of this fruit you will die, even though he did not physically die immediately, eventually he and Eve did die, they would not have died had they not disobeyed God. Israel eventually was driven from the promised land because of their rebellion. Paul warns us as Christians in Romans 11:21, "if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off."

Every text of scripture where God repents there is the issue of utter disregard for God's warnings, sin, and rebellion. Noah warned everyone that judgment was pending and that they would be destroyed. Everyone perished except Noah and his family, because he was a righteous man. Doesn't that mean that God really did wish he had not created man? Ya think? And if Noah was no better then everyone else at that time, then yes, the whole human race would have perished and the promise to Eve would not have been fulfilled. This does not mean that God lied to Adam, it means that nobody after him would be able to carry out the promise. The promise would have been nullified because of the wickedness of men, not because God just decided to change his mind for no justifiable reason. If the world had an abundance of righteous men on the earth, and he then changed his mind about his promises, then he would have become a liar.

Jonah was sent to warn Nineveh that they were going to be destroyed. But they repented then God repented of destroying them. I think most Christians would take this literally.

In I Samuel 13:13 it states, "Samuel said to Saul, 'You have done foolishly; you have not kept the commandment of the Lord your God, which he commanded you; for now the Lord would have established your kingdom over Israel for ever. 14 But now your kingdom shall not continue; the Lord has sought out a man after his own heart; and the Lord has appointed him to be prince over his people, because you have not kept what the Lord commanded you.'”

We see that Saul did not receive what God had promised him. In I Samuel 15:10, it says, "The word of the Lord came to Samuel: 11 'I repent that I have made Saul king; for he has turned back from following me, and has not performed my commandments.' And Samuel was angry; and he cried to the Lord all night.'" And Samuel said to him to Saul in verse 28, “The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you this day, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you. 29 And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent.” Then in verse 35 it says, "Samuel grieved over Saul. And the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel. 16:1 The Lord said to Samuel, 'How long will you grieve over Saul, seeing I have rejected him from being king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil, and go; I will send you to Jesse the Bethlehemite, for I have provided for myself a king among his sons.'”

It should be obvious that God would not repent from removing Saul as king, not that he never repents from anything. He did repent of making Saul King.

Do you still think that God never really repents, are all these examples to be taken figuratively? I think almost all Christian would take these texts literally, accept liberal ones.

--Dave

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I take this to be specific. But also that their election was because of their faith not the cause of their faith. God has chosen them not for salvation but God has chosen that their salvation, and ours, to be through our believing the truth and sanctification of the Spirit.

So you disagree with godrulz who says that God cannot possibly look into the future and see all those who will believe? According to godrulz the only thing that God can be sure about in the future are the things which He can cause to happen. And since man has free will He cannot control who will believe so therefore it is impossible for him to look into the future and choose that who will believe.

I thought the idea that God can in fact look into the future and choose for salvation those who believe goes against the teaching of "Open Theology."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your whole theology seems to be built on Gen 49 and the phrase that God will not repent. The scriptures show that there are both things that God has repented of and things that he will not repent of, you have considered only half of the truth. You have not shown that all the scripture that say God has repented are only figuative. The way to do that is to carefully look at the texts that say he has. So I will post again those texts for your evaluation.

If one instance can be shown to be "figurative" then all of them can also be figurative.

But you failed to address the verses that speak of the very nature of God:

"For I am the Lord, I change not" ( Mal. 3:6).

"I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent" (Ezek. 24:14).

"With whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (Jms.1:17).

"God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of a man that he should repent" (Num.3:19).

 

[DFT_Dave]

If one instance can be shown to be "figurative" then all of them can also be figurative.

But you failed to address the verses that speak of the very nature of God:

"For I am the Lord, I change not" ( Mal. 3:6).

"I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent" (Ezek. 24:14).

"With whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (Jms.1:17).

"God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of a man that he should repent" (Num.3:19).

Just look at the texts I have posted, before you make a judgment. It's clear that God repents of somethings but not everything.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

So you disagree with godrulz who says that God cannot possibly look into the future and see all those who will believe? According to godrulz the only thing that God can be sure about in the future are the things which He can cause to happen. And since man has free will He cannot control who will believe so therefore it is impossible for him to look into the future and choose that who will believe.

I thought the idea that God can in fact look into the future and choose for salvation those who believe goes against the teaching of "Open Theology."

God chose them from the beginng when they first heard the Gospel and received it with joy, not before the the world began or before the beginng of time. See my critique of Titus 2.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Concerning Titus 1:2

2 επ ελπιδι ζωης αιωνιου ην επηγγειλατο ο αψευδης θεος προ χρονων αιωνιων --before ages of time

NASB translate: "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago"

RSV translate: "hope of eternal life which God, who never lies, promised ages ago"

YLT translates: "hope of life age-during, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages,

It would not be accurate to translate this verse as "before the world began" because the greek does not use the word for world.

The greek does not say "before time began" either.

--Dave

 

[themuzicman]

Jerry... regarding Genesis 49.. can you tell us exactly when the tribe of Simeon was actually scattered in Israel?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I take this to be specific. But also that their election was because of their faith not the cause of their faith. God has chosen them not for salvation but God has chosen that their salvation, and ours, to be through our believing the truth and sanctification of the Spirit.

Let us look at the verse again:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

I agree with you that God "has chosen that their salvation, and ours, to be through our believing the truth and sanctification of the Spirit."

And in the folowing verse the salvation through the sanctification of the Spirit is tied to the "foreknowledge" of God:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).

According to the way I read this verse the "election" was through the sanctification of the Spirit and this was also according to the foreknowledge of God.

And that matches up with what is said about the "beginning":

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

But you say:

God chose them from the beginng when they first heard the Gospel and received it with joy, not before the the world began or before the beginng of time.

What about the following verse?:

"According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).

Or this one?:

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim.1:9).

Is the translation of both of those verses faulty?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry... regarding Genesis 49.. can you tell us exactly when the tribe of Simeon was actually scattered in Israel?

We can see a drastic decrease in the number of people belonging to that tribe from the exodus until the entry into Canaan, going from 59,300 (Num.1:23) to 22,200 (Num.26:14).

Many of them were evidently scattered north to Ephraim and Manasseh (2 Chron.15:9).

In fact. due to the scattering the population had decreased to a degree that Simeon alone was omitted by Moses when he pronounced blessing on the different tribes (Deut.33).

Levi was given no land to inherit. Those from that tribe were divided and scattered about in the many cities of the land.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Let us look at the verse again:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

I agree with you that God "has chosen that their salvation, and ours, to be through our believing the truth and sanctification of the Spirit."

And in the folowing verse the salvation through the sanctification of the Spirit is tied to the "foreknowledge" of God:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).

According to the way I read this verse the "election" was through the sanctification of the Spirit and this was also according to the foreknowledge of God.

And that matches up with what is said about the "beginning":

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

But you say:

What about the following verse?:

"According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).

Or this one?:

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim.1:9).

Is the translation of both of those verses faulty?

Yes, but to prove this I have to break it down as it is written in Greek.

Ephesians 1:4 καθως εξελεξατο ημας εν αυτω προ καταβολης κοσμου ειναι ημας αγιους και αμωμους κατενωπιον αυτου εν αγαπη

The phrase "before the foundation of the world" is in bold.

Ephesians 2:20 "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets"

20 εποικοδομηθεντες επι τω θεμελιω των αποστολων και προφητων

The Greek word for "foundation" in bold in Eph. 2:20 is not the same Greek word for foundation in Eph. 1:4

"καταβολης" should not be translated the same as "θεμελιω".

I will take you through each verse that "καταβολης" is used in the New Testament and you can draw your own conclusions as to how this phrase should be translated.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Matthew 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, 35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: “I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.”

Matthew is quoting the Psalms.

Psalms 78:1 Give ear, O my people, to my law;
Incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
2 I will open my mouth in a parable;
I will utter dark sayings of old,
3 Which we have heard and known,
And our fathers have told us.
4 We will not hide them from their children,
Telling to the generation to come the praises of the Lord,
And His strength and His wonderful works that He has done.

Do you notice anything that does not make sense?

--Dave

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Greek word for "foundation" in bold in Eph. 2:20 is not the same Greek word for foundation in Eph. 1:4

Every single translation that I can find translates the word at Ephesians 1:4 as "foundation" or "creation." And one of meanings of that Greek word is " a founding (laying down a foundation)" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Can use provide a translation of Ephesians 1:4 which does not indicate that the Christian is chosen from the foundation or the creation of the world?

 

[themuzicman]

We can see a drastic decrease in the number of people belonging to that tribe from the exodus until the entry into Canaan, going from 59,300 (Num.1:23) to 22,200 (Num.26:14).

Many of them were evidently scattered north to Ephraim and Manasseh (2 Chron.15:9).

In fact. due to the scattering the population had decreased to a degree that Simeon alone was omitted by Moses when he pronounced blessing on the different tribes (Deut.33).

I think you need to do a bit more reading. The list of tribes given in the Torah changes from instance to instance.

And you have no basis to claim dispersion based upon declining numbers.

And, TBH, the fact that Simeon was still around in 2 Chor 15 suggests that they were still thriving.

Levi was given no land to inherit. Those from that tribe were divided and scattered about in the many cities of the land.

They were also set apart in Israel, and retained a distinct identity as the high priest and temple workers. They certainly didn't disperse.

And this is quite different from how you describes the so called "scattering" of Simeon.

I think you're stretching.

Muz

 

[DFT_Dave]

Saul's disobedience

I Samuel 13:13 "Samuel said to Saul, 'You have done foolishly; you have not kept the commandment of the Lord your God, which he commanded you; for now the Lord would have established your kingdom over Israel for ever. 14 But now your kingdom shall not continue; the Lord has sought out a man after his own heart; and the Lord has appointed him to be prince over his people, because you have not kept what the Lord commanded you.'”

We see that Saul will not receive what God had promised him.

I Samuel 15:10 "The word of the Lord came to Samuel: 11 'I repent that I have made Saul king; for he has turned back from following me, and has not performed my commandments.' And Samuel was angry; and he cried to the Lord all night.'"

Samuel said then says to Saul, in verse 28, “The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you this day, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you. 29 And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent.”

That God will "not repent" does not nullify the verse before it that says he did repent. It should be obvious that God would "not repent" from removing Saul as king, while God did repent of making Saul King as verse 35 says, "Samuel grieved over Saul. And the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel. 16:1 The Lord said to Samuel, 'How long will you grieve over Saul, seeing I have rejected him from being king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil, and go; I will send you to Jesse the Bethlehemite, for I have provided for myself a king among his sons.'”

This is a good example of God both repenting and not repenting in the same text. Because of his disobedience it repented God that he had appointed Saul as king. Saul was hoping that God would repent of his dicision to remove him as King but God said no, he had already chosen David to take his place.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Every single translation that I can find translates the word at Ephesians 1:4 as "foundation" or "creation." And one of meanings of that Greek word is " a founding (laying down a foundation)" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Can use provide a translation of Ephesians 1:4 which does not indicate that the Christian is chosen from the foundation or the creation of the world?

No, their are theologians who have written about this, and we see it in the Greek and as we compare different texts.

Can you offer an analysis of Matt 13 and Psa 78.

--Dave

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This is a good example of God both repenting and not repenting in the same text.

One of the meanings of the Hebrew word translated "repent" is "to be sorry."

I believe that the following is what is said at 1 Samuel 15:11

"I am sorry that I have made Saul king."

It is also obvious that that same meaning does not make sense if it is used here:

"And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or be sorry; for he is not a man, that he should be sorry.”

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Matthew 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, 35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: “I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.”

Matthew is quoting the Psalms.

Psalms 78:1 Give ear, O my people, to my law;
Incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
2 I will open my mouth in a parable;
I will utter dark sayings of old,
3 Which we have heard and known,
And our fathers have told us.
4 We will not hide them from their children,
Telling to the generation to come the praises of the Lord,
And His strength and His wonderful works that He has done.

Do you notice anything that does not make sense?

The things which I put in "bold" are not the same.

 

[DFT_Dave]

One of the meanings of the Hebrew word translated "repent" is "to be sorry."

I believe that the following is what is said at 1 Samuel 15:11

"I am sorry that I have made Saul king."

It is also obvious that that same meaning does not make sense if it is used here:

"And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or be sorry; for he is not a man, that he should be sorry.”

God says I'm sorry I made Saul king, but I'm not sorry that I will remove him as king. This is what is meant here and it makes perfect sense.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

The things which I put in "bold" are not the same.

Yes, Psa 78 "I will utter dark sayings of old, which we have heard and known...

Matt 13 "I will utter things (dark sayings) kept secret...

Why were the sayings that were once known and were to be pasted on to future generations now not known in Jesus day? In the Greek it says "απο καταβολης" because of the katabolo, which cannot mean from the foundation of the world, the word for world does not even appear in the Greek text. Katabolo means to be cast down not to build up.

Elseth in his book, "Did God Know", says this verse should be translated, "I will utter things (dark sayings) kept secret because of the disintegration of Israel, since that is who he is addressing in this text.

That would include a moral disintegration or degeneration.

--Dave