ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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Nathon Detroit

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Again, Nang can comment. But I will interject that I think the relevance of the verse is seen from all the arguments for the existence of God. The verse states that in God's general revelation, His created universe, the question is clearly begged by anyone, whether they have heard the Gospel message or not, that the universe had to have been created. From this point, the theologians and philosophers, have started with the examination of exactly "how" did the universe come to be. Hence, the various cosmological, ontological, teleological, and moral arguments spring forward. Contained within these and other arguments, if they are to withstand scrutiny, are the requirements that God possesses certain attributes, else the arguments themselves would not stand. My point is that we cannot discuss the fact that the universe was created without also discussing the attributes of its Creator. I think the verse clearly is relevant in this context.
Nothing you just stated provided any further evidence that Romans 1 is relevant to God have the ability to design something new at some point in the past (or in the future for that matter).

You and Nang are making a jump in reason that simply isn't there.
 

Clete

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So basically Zeno's paradoxes are mathematical word games?

Well I think it's pretty clear that they are more that just word games. The logic in them is sound and so it presents a problem but not a fatal one.

The question is which direction does one go in order to resolve the problem? Do you assume things that you have no evidence for in order to resolve it? Do you assume things that you not only have evidence against but which themselves create even greater rational problems? Or, instead of assuming you know something that you really don't, do you assume that you don't know something that is necessary to know in order to resolve the problem?

I pick the latter!

Until Calculus came along Zeno's paradoxes made is seem that motion was impossible. But rather than assuming something that no one had any evidence for, like assuming that motion was an illusion as Zeno did, it is wiser to say there is something I don't know about how motion works (or how mathematics works in the case of Zeno) rather than assuming that something I experience everyday doesn't exist. Indeed! If Zeno's paradoxes where an expression of truth Zeno could never have come to know anything about them so the whole fact that he wrote them down is proof that there is something wrong.

In the case of infinite regress, we are dealing with an infinite amount of time and not simply an infinite number of events (some would argue that there is no difference) and so the problem is somewhat different than Zeno's paradoxes but it is quite similar and I choose rather than to assume that God exists outside of time, which is itself a contradiction in terms and leads to all sort of other rational conundrums, that there is something about the nature of eternity that I don't understand well enough to solve this particular puzzle.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

godrulz

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Quite right. And IIRC, even the philosophers of Zeno's time saw this. Calculus methods (analysis of converging series) have proven (mathematical definition of proven) that it's no paradox at all. If one were to take the same amount of time to cross each subsequent "half", you've got a problem. But we don't. So it ain't. :)

There is a difference between instants and intervals, another key to resolving the non-issue.
 

Delmar

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Lonster if you read my post carefully I never mentioned "us".

I am asking primarily about God Himself.

Both Nang and AMR assert that God never designed, never created (in His mind), never imagined. Our design, the design of creation and everything else simply always was.

Apparently nobody designed us, or the universe. :idunno:

In fact, since everything is now, He is in the process of designing creation right now! I'm starting to get a handle on this stuff. I'm a genius!
 

godrulz

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I think we've covered this before, but "Thousand years as a day" passages point to transcendence. I also pointed out that it takes almost 6 minutes to get a message just to Mars and another 6 to get a response from the rover. God hears our prayers instantly so already transcends our time limitations. That God transcends our time frame is already obvious. Omnipresence already transcends the contraints of time as we know it. I concede logic problems but not the truth of His trancendence of time. Trancendence here being by definition outside of time.

The metaphor of years/days is not literal, but a matter of perception/perspective.

God hears our prayers instantly because He is omnipresent, not because He is supposedly timeless. In either view (timeless or endless time), the omniscient/omnipresent God would know prayers instantly (not in eternity past before they exist as 'eternal now' wrongly assumes).

There is a definite sense that time is not a limitation for God like it is for us, but this is not proof that it is not an aspect of His eternal experience (cf. love, thinking, feeling).

Transcendence is consistent with divine temporality or endless time as much as a timeless view would be. Temporality would be more consistent with transcendence and immanence than timelessness would be. The simple revelation from Genesis to Revelation is that God interacts in history with sequence/succession/duration, not an aloof eternal now reality. The fact is that creation, incarnation, resurrection, Second Coming are chronological, even for God. Eternal now simultaneity is indefensible, a remnant of Platonic vs biblical thought.
 

Delmar

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:jazz:
The amazing thing is I did and do and before I ever heard of Open Theism, I was one. God does in fact lead us to truth through the help of His Holy Spirit. Ain't God Good. ANd Thank God He ain't as far away from us as Calvinism wants to keep Him.

What's amazing to me is that even after the fact you guys are still trying to keep Jesus out of the neighborhood because His presence shows your false humility up for what it really is: suppression of the TRUTH about God.

:rotfl:
I, like brother Philetus, believed that the future was not entirely settled in advance, long before I had ever heard of the open view. Simply as a result of believing what I read in the Bible.
 

Lon

Well-known member
ON what basis do you claim that OVT says that God has had an infinite series of thoughts?

Muz

Otherwise God would be 'finite.' If OV must begin to question 'every' attribute of God to hold water 1) I'll extend my hand to Arminian theology (though flawed, they don't deny everything). 2) OV will have to deny everything and become Mormon.

oops, edit: Missed this Muz

Evo's argument also assumes that time moves constantly for God as it does for us. What if God's temporality were under His control, such that it stops when He wants it to stop, and goes when He wants it to go?

Muz
 
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Lon

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Nothing you just stated provided any further evidence that Romans 1 is relevant to God have the ability to design something new at some point in the past (or in the future for that matter).

You and Nang are making a jump in reason that simply isn't there.

and again 'new' implies our perception, not God's. Yes He can create 'new' but only as 'we' see it. There is no 'new' with God, as distasteful as that appears to you. He is not bored, nor is He a rock, but immutable simply because everything that exists is sustained by Him. If a kid makes a toy room with moving cars, trains, and planes, he is aware of every combination because he set it all up. This is just a limited perception btw, the toys were not created by the kid nor does he have intimate knowledge of all the movements in practicum, but God not only set up the movements, but created the things that move, and this doesn't explain the half of it. Even you have said God knows everything knowable. If such is the case, the movement of His creation cannot take Him by surprise. He is intimately knowledgeable with even the number of our days, and the number of our hairs. He already supercedes time as we know it and are able to move, so He can anticipate without surprise at all. So Biblical passages that reflect 'surprise' are either dead wrong or telling us something else by necessity. If you take them at face value without interpretation, you negate even him knowing all that is knowable. In effect, not only does He not have EDF, He has no exhaustive knowledge of any kind but the past. The more this idea is extrapolated in logic, even his knowledge of past is brought into question and He becomes ineffectual and not even omnicompetent. There are tremendous holes in OV theology open for heresies if left unchecked and your own arguments lend to them. OV is a slippery slope. I appreciate the questions it asks, the relational view of God it reinforces, but must speak this caution. Mormons have made a god in their own image, its a bummer they were not corrected at the beginning by sound doctrine, but hopefully our interaction with you will help keep your feet grounded on this slippery slope of OV logic derisions.
 

sentientsynth

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There is a difference between instants and intervals, another key to resolving the non-issue.
I don't see how the "difference between instants and intervals" relates to my post. Could you explain to me the difference between instants and intervals, and how it is the "key" to resolving the non-issue? What, by the way, is the "non-issue" that you're talking about?

Sorry, but you've completely lost me.

Thanks.
 

Nathon Detroit

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and again 'new' implies our perception, not God's. Yes He can create 'new' but only as 'we' see it. There is no 'new' with God, as distasteful as that appears to you.
Ok, so you are in agreement with Nang and AMR on this.

If God never designed who did?


If God never elected who did?
 

Yorzhik

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I don't see how the "difference between instants and intervals" relates to my post. Could you explain to me the difference between instants and intervals, and how it is the "key" to resolving the non-issue? What, by the way, is the "non-issue" that you're talking about?

Sorry, but you've completely lost me.

Thanks.
Off topic, but not by much; How's Hilson doing these days?
 

Lon

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Ok, so you are in agreement with Nang and AMR on this.

If God never designed who did?


If God never elected who did?

Again, 'never' and 'now' are time considerations. To understand what you are asking is our focal point difference of course. So I'm not saying 'never' but 'always.' Eternal, atemporal, infinite concepts are very hard concepts to discuss with temporal, finite terms. "When?" is a temporal question and perhaps the only basis for our understanding of such things. My mind is even today boggled by eternity past. I cannot fathom how anything ever had no beginning, I accept it as true regardless of my logical ability to comprehend. Everything in my comprehension had a beginning but God. This already is a 'timeless' consideration for perplexity. It already escapes logical reasoning on our part. It is true none-the-less.
 

Nathon Detroit

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Again, 'never' and 'now' are time considerations. To understand what you are asking is our focal point difference of course. So I'm not saying 'never' but 'always.' Eternal, atemporal, infinite concepts are very hard concepts to discuss with temporal, finite terms. "When?" is a temporal question and perhaps the only basis for our understanding of such things. My mind is even today boggled by eternity past. I cannot fathom how anything ever had no beginning, I accept it as true regardless of my logical ability to comprehend. Everything in my comprehension had a beginning but God. This already is a 'timeless' consideration for perplexity. It already escapes logical reasoning on our part. It is true none-the-less.
Lonster... forget about us! Forget about "our perspective"!

I am speaking strictly about God and His perspective.

- Was there ever a time where He created something new? (new to Him?)
- Was there ever a time where he designed something? (new to Him?)
- Could He design something new if He wanted to now? (new to Him?)
- Could He author something new (like a song) if He wanted to? (new to Him?)

Does He have the fundamental capability of creating new things?
(new to Him)
 

Nang

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Lonster... forget about us! Forget about "our perspective"!

I am speaking strictly about God and His perspective.

Lonster will speak for himself, but I will give answer to your questions:

-
Was there ever a time where He created something new? (new to Him?)

No


-
Was there ever a time where he designed something? (new to Him?)

No


-
Could He design something new if He wanted to now? (new to Him?)

No


-
Could He author something new (like a song) if He wanted to? (new to Him?)

No


Does He have the fundamental capability of creating new things?
(new to Him)

Not necessary for complete God to add to His completeness.

Nang
 

Evoken

New member
The problem of infinite regress is probably the most significant rational hurdle the Open View has to deal with.

Good to see you acknowledge the problem. Now to answer your two questions and then comment on the rest of your post...

Do you believe that the argument you presented actually does falsify open theism on rational grounds?

Yes. My intention is to show that the God of open theism cannot be the creator of the universe, and I believe that the argument is sound and does that.

Have you ever heard of Zeno's paradoxes?

Yes. I have heard of Zeno's paradox but I don't think the God of open theism avoids the problem presented in the argument.

In short, we move through an infinite series of points in time all the time! You just accomplished an impossibility by having read this sentence (according to Zeno)! Now, with the invention of Calculus most mathematicians agree that Zeno's paradoxes have been put to bed but don't be so sure. There are still quite a number of prominent philosophers who disagree and with good reason. Either way, however, I submit that the problem of infinite regress, while a significant philosophical issue, does not prove that God could not have arrived at the present any more than Zeno proved you couldn't have reached the end of this post. It's a paradox, nothing more.

Ok, there are several reasons why I believe that what you said does not avoids the infinite regress and thus the problem still remains.

An actual infinite cannot exist in reality

I contend that an actual infinite does not exists in reality and that it only exists as an abstraction or idea. To illustrate, consider this analogy:

Imagine that you have a library with an infinite number of books. Say that you were to gather all of the books in the library, we get Infinity - Infinity = 0. Now, let's say that you were to gather all odd-numbered books, we get Infinity - Infinity = Infinity. Finally, let's say you were to gather all books numbered ten and higher from your library, we get Infinity - Infinity = 9. As you can see, we have here three equations subtracting equal quantities and leading to contradictory answers.

This problem lead a famous mathematician to say: "The infinite is nowhere to be found in reality. It neither exists in nature nor provides a legitimate basis for rational thought. The role that remains for the infinite . . . is solely that of an idea . . ." (David Hilbert, "On the Infinite").

As a consequence, mathematicians rule out the use of subtraction and division of infinite quantities. So, even if an infinite series of events could be passed in theory, such a concept cannot exist in reality but only in abstract mathematics. In the real world, there is nothing preventing us from subtracting things, and since the God of open theism is in reality and subject to time and he is not a mere abstraction, there is no reason to think that he is somehow immune to this problem.

Space-time is discontinuous

Your claim that "we move through an infinite series of points in time all the time" assumes that space-time is continuous and infinitely divisible. But we know from science that this is not the case. According to quantum mechanics, space-time comes in quanta or discreet packages, that is, things move by really small "jumps", very much like a frame by frame animation. What this means, in other words, is that the electron is here, then it is there, and there was no in-between. This entails that things in the universe are popping in and out of existence every femtosecond.

So, one does not moves through an infinite series of points in time, but a finite series of points. The limit of the division of space-tme can be found in the planck time / length. Thus we find that "traditional notions of space and time will break down at distances shorter than the Planck length or times shorter than the Planck time" (source).

A further corollary of the above could be that we live in a motionless universe where what we perceive as motion is but a constant re-creation done by God that gives the appearance of motion, that is, motion is an illusion. But that involves something unrelated to what we are discussing, so let's not get derailed into that.

God's discursive knowledge

Another issue which is precisely one of the reasons why I focused on God's thoughts and the nature of his knowledge and not time or some other thing when making the argument, is that even if we grant that an infinite series of points are passed between two events, this overlooks the fact that to move across two points entails a though first, that is, thought is prior to movement. Now, since God's knowledge is discursive as you said, his thoughts are very much like space-time, that is, discrete. Otherwise how would he move coherently from topic to topic? So, unless you want to say that God's thoughts are infinitely divisible (something I think would leave us with anything but a thought), then the problem of an infinite series of thoughts still holds for the God of open theism.

And what's more its the only one that I have yet discovered within the Open View paradigm, while the Settled View, in whatever form, is chocker block full of not only paradoxes but outright blatant contradictions which are simply ignored and called antinomies to make everyone feel pious about their intellectual dishonesty.

I believe that issues with the Settled View would fall into a separate discussion. :)


Evo
 
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godrulz

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I don't see how the "difference between instants and intervals" relates to my post. Could you explain to me the difference between instants and intervals, and how it is the "key" to resolving the non-issue? What, by the way, is the "non-issue" that you're talking about?

Sorry, but you've completely lost me.

Thanks.


An instant (very small moment) is not the same as a longer interval. Mathematically and philosophically, it is a non-issue argument to say that an arrow will never reach a target due to smaller intervals or that God could not have created or existed if there are infinite successive intervals (cf. Zeno's paradox). Some are making it an issue, but I say it is a non-issue because the academic literature has resolved it.

The instant/interval resolution is in 'A Treatise on Time and Space' by J.R. Lucas. I followed the argument when I read it years ago, but cannot regurgitate it now. This definitive work is hard to understand, but he does support eternity as endless time, not timelessness. He makes a cogent argument that a personal God must experience duration, not an eternal now simultaneity, if He is to be personal (think, act, feel all require duration).
 

sentientsynth

New member
Some are making it an issue,

On the contrary. Seems to me that everyone agrees that Zeno's Paradox is a non-issue, and that it doesn't relate to the issue of infinite regression. Read the posts, instead of just skimming.


but I say it is a non-issue because the academic literature has resolved it.

In my opinion, the "academic literature" is unnecessary. Zeno was some pot-head whose own words confused him.
 

Lon

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Lonster... forget about us! Forget about "our perspective"!

I am speaking strictly about God and His perspective.

- Was there ever a time where He created something new? (new to Him?)
- Was there ever a time where he designed something? (new to Him?)
- Could He design something new if He wanted to now? (new to Him?)
- Could He author something new (like a song) if He wanted to? (new to Him?)

Does He have the fundamental capability of creating new things?
(new to Him)

"Was there a "time..." The question from a time frame is the object of our disagreement. It is the whole point. "New" is the object of our disagreement. We are talking about the time issue here. You can't ask these questions because they have no meaning in my context for this discussion. The foundational problem is that I see God outside of our time constraints. Like I said, all our words are colored by our perception. God already supercedes our time considerations in omnipresence, power, communications, time frame (1 day as a thousand years), eternal both past and future (definition of infinite). We speak from our context of finite temporality. So when we say time, new, now, yesterday, tomorrow, all these concepts are from finite understandings. Infinite is already a timeless consideration on its own. God is relational to us in our understanding and perception of time, but He is not constrained to it already, just by the small things I've said. He already escapes our sequential reality. I know this is troubling to logic parameters you've set up, but it is the truth.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
Lonster will speak for himself, but I will give answer to your questions:

-

No


-

No


-

No


-

No



Not necessary for complete God to add to His completeness.

Nang

And there you have it, folks: Denial of Ex Nihilo creation. Another Pantheist in the making.

Muz
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Lonster... forget about us! Forget about "our perspective"!

I am speaking strictly about God and His perspective.

- Was there ever a time where He created something new? (new to Him?)
- Was there ever a time where he designed something? (new to Him?)
- Could He design something new if He wanted to now? (new to Him?)
- Could He author something new (like a song) if He wanted to? (new to Him?)

Does He have the fundamental capability of creating new things?
(new to Him)
There can be nothing "new" to God. All created effects pre-exist in God’s will. God’s will is in perfect accord with his knowledge. God’s will is the efficient cause of all things, so all created things pre-exist in God’s knowledge. Will is the inclination to put into action what one knows. Therefore, all created effects flow from God’s will.

Given that God knows Himself perfectly, He must know perfectly all the different ways His perfections can be shared by others. Within the essence of God there is all the knowledge of all possible kinds of things God's will could actualize. Hence, God knows all the particular things that could ever be actualized. In other words, God knows all possibilities.

It makes no more sense to say God has to be temporal in order to relate to a temporal world than to say God has to be a creature in order to create.


Endless time is just more of an elongation of time. But eternity differs qualitatively. It differs essentially, not merely accidentally. Eternity is an essential, changeless state of being that transcends moment-by-successive-moment reality.

When time changes, God’s knowledge does not change, since God knew it in advance. God knows change, but not in the way we know change. We know change in successive frames of time. From eternity God knows the whole of before and after equally vividly.

God knows the same things we do, but God does not know them the same way we know them.
Our knowledge is discursive, as it moves from premises to conclusions. In human knowledge discursiveness is twofold: One thing is known after another, and one thing is known through another. God does not know things sequentially, since God is timeless and knows all things eternally equally vividly. God does not know things inferentially, for God is a simple being (simpliciter) and knows all things through the oneness of Himself. Hence, God cannot know anything discursively (sequentially, from topic to topic), since discursive knowledge implies a limitation to consider one thing at a time on the part of the knower.



 
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