ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[RobE]

His perfect will is not always done (the rape and murder of a baby is not decreed, desired, nor His will at all).

Then why doesn't He prevent it from happening?

Most evangelicals have moved away from the classical, traditional understanding of impassibility to a modified version.

What's the 'modified' version?

Godrulz, do you agree with Patman and his timeline? What does it prove if Patman is right?

 

[Lon]

You and I are not on a different page as far as the prophecy goes. The prophecy was wholly and completely fulfilled. All prophecy has been(or will be) wholly and completely fulfilled. Patrick's numbers are wrong.

The only issue, we might be at odds on, is compatibalism. Compatibalism requires that future actions be contingent while foreknown. In a sense we might say that all future actions are contingent. If my words suggested that I was saying other than what I'm saying in this post then I hope this clears it up.

I haven't done the math and it's a non-issue for me. Primarily because if the numbers don't add up, what does it mean to the argument? It has the same validity as Nineveh getting destroyed or Tyre getting destroyed. Tyre was destroyed by Neb. and the island was destroyed by Alexander; in exactly the way prophesied. Does this phase the open thiest? Of course not, since they are only interested in their own presuppositions. Nineveh wasn't destroyed so the 'ots' claim that God lied if He foreknew. It never occurs to these guys that God need not reveal all His mind to us. They think we're as smart as Our Lord.

In this case, I'm sure the numbers DO indeed add up, because of the reiteration in scripture of those same numbers. This argument ultimately proves nothing. It doesn't prove what Patrick claims whether it was 10 years, 400 years, or 430 years. God does not lie and the scriptures are the word of God. If Patrick wants to argue that the scriptures or God was wrong then let him. It only proves that Patman is wrong and nothing else. If we ignore the facts and take the position that the scriptures are wrong --- then what does this accomplish in opposing foreknowledge, really?

Thanks Rob. I think we have a similar vein of thought on most of our discussions but I didn't want to put words in your mouth


The truths of God are upheld by us both.
You and I along with OV: "God does not lie."
Between you and I: "God does not make mistakes."

 

[patman]

Right here:

Kohath, the son of Levi, had 4 sons (Ex. 6:18), who in turn had a total of 10 sons (Ex. 6:20-21; 1 Chr. 24:23-24), who in turn had 8,600 sons (Num. 3:28)! Surely there is a gap in this genealogy somewhere, they are called "clans" in Num. 3:28, which also implies some substantial history, as is indicated by the life of Levi being 137 years (Ex. 6:16), Kohath being 133 years (Ex. 6:18), and Amram living 137 years, yet if we say that they had all their sons at the very end of their life, we only get 407 total years, yet the time in Egypt spanned 430 years (Ex. 12:40), so there is not enough time in this genealogy to cover the time in Egypt, thus we probably have gaps in this genealogy. And presumably these Hebrew folks could add these numbers back then, and would have noticed such a discrepancy, if this was simply a numerical error.

We do not have the complete genealogy, I agree. We do have the direct line to Moses tho.

 

[patman]

Read it or ignore it. Your choice. Either way, I have no issues with the conclusions drawn therein.

I will ask once more. You can give me the skinny, if your answer disagrees with what my answer is, I will look at it.

Does it say the slavery in Egypt was less than 400 years?

 

[patman]

Very coincidental they happen to coincide. In this case, Rob and I are on a different page (on this particular, specifically). God made a prophecy and the way I reckon it, it is wholly and completely fullfilled.

If you read AMR's link and take the time to ingest it. I mean really dig into what is being conveyed and why. You'll know 100% what I've been trying to share with you all along. I mean AMR could have said "Read what Lon is saying if you don't like links. He's essentially boiling them all down for you."

(He actually did say this, mine a paraphrase of his words).

Lon, no one is able to just simply answer my questions without an internet tour.

I do not believe anyone is even reading my questions. We keep talking about the wrong thing.

 

[Nang]

We keep talking about the wrong thing.

Ahem . . .who is "we?"

Seems to be only "thee" who is talking about the wrong thing . . .

Nang

 

[patman]

I'm sure we've covered this. If God says in '40 days Nineveh will be destroyed' and then it isn't. Then it must have been conditional, otherwise Nineveh would have been destroyed.

For God to say 'in 40 days Nineveh will be destroyed' is not a lie. God NOT saying ALL that He knows isn't a lie!

There is no demand for God to reveal all of His purposes.

God saying "400 years" and "250 years" as the actual outcome does not constitute the "hiding his knowledge" defense. If he said 400 years and knew it would be 400 years, I would bank on it being 400 years, but it wasn't.

 

[patman]

I must say I am a little disheartened. If no one will actually discuss this with me then what's the point in being here?

 

[Nang]

God saying "400 years" and "250 years" as the actual outcome does not constitute the "hiding his knowledge" defense. If he said 400 years and knew it would be 400 years, I would bank on it being 400 years, but it wasn't.

O.K.

So you confess you do not believe God.

You confess you cannot "bank" on God's word.

You argue God is either dumb or a liar by what He has said and predicted.

You do not sound like a son of God, who loves, trusts, and depends upon his Father, at all.

So who are you and what is your point . . .besides attempting to make God look stupid and wrong?

You cannot possibly think to sell yourself as a "Christian", do you hope?

Nang

 

[patman]

O.K.

So you confess you do not believe God.

You confess you cannot "bank" on God's word.

You argue God is either dumb or a liar by what He has said and predicted.

You do not sound like a son of God, who loves, trusts, and depends upon his Father, at all.

So who are you and what is your point . . .besides attempting to make God look stupid and wrong?

You cannot possibly think to sell yourself as a "Christian", do you hope?

Nang

How about you rephrase my question for me Nang? Could you do it without the accusations? I just wanna make sure you understand what I am asking and why I am asking it.

 

[godrulz]

Then why doesn't He prevent it from happening?



What's the 'modified' version?

Godrulz, do you agree with Patman and his timeline? What does it prove if Patman is right?

Books on alleged Bible discrepancies or commentaries propose resolutions. I trust the Word of God, so no it is not an issue. I am not following this debate knowing the answers are readily available.

'Strong immutability' and impassibility is traditional, Platonic and makes God out to be a stone, the 'perfect' Unmoved Mover. Most have moved to a weak immutability/impassibility concept where God does not change in some ways (character/attributes), but does change in other ways (relations, actions, thoughts, feelings).

God is personal, not impersonal. This should be the starting point.

Jay Wesley Richards and others have done some work on this. The Platonic views are simply unbiblical. This is not just an Open Theist issue, but even traditional, classical theologians are shifting their understanding, but not as far as OT.

Just because God does not instantly prevent something from happening, does not mean He desires or condones it. Hyper-sovereignty is a wrong view, as is omnicausality. Issues of irrevocable freedom, by God's sovereign choice, must be considered. We know that heinous evil is contrary to His revealed character and Word, so a hyper-sovereignty view that rejects freedom and exalts hyper-sovereignty ends up impugning the character and Word of God. Therefore, change the wrong view, not the Word. Boyd and Sanders have written significant works on theodicy (problem of evil) and providence. I have wrestled with it for decades, but cannot convince you in a post or two. I am pointing the honest student to a place to consider alternative views that are more credible than traditional ones.

 

[Nang]

How about you rephrase my question for me Nang? Could you do it without the accusations? I just wanna make sure you understand what I am asking and why I am asking it.

You are not "asking" anything.

You are accusing God of being stupid and wrong and untrustworthy.

Nothing a whit better at all.

You are arguing against the Word of God to your own detriment and (supposed) witness.

Nang

 

[patman]

You are not "asking" anything.

You are accusing God of being stupid and wrong and untrustworthy.

Nothing a whit better at all.

You are arguing against the Word of God to your own detriment and (supposed) witness.

Nang

Nang. Let's make it simple. If I have hit a nerve, you should be more than willing to attack my points and correct them, instead of just attacking me.

In Genesis 46 we are introduced to a person named Kohath. He was the father of Amram Exodus 6:18. Amram was the father of Noah Exodus 6:20.

Moses was 80 when he lead the children of Israel out of Egypt. Kohath died at 133 and Amram died at 137. 133 + 137 + 80 makes the max time they were in Egypt only as slaves for 350 years.

Joseph was 30 when he was put over Egypt. He died at 110. 2 years into the famine (which happened 7 years later [the seven years of plenty]) Jacob and his children and his children's children entered Egypt. That makes Joseph 39.

That means (Joseph's death 110 - 39 Joseph's age when Jacob moved) leaves another 71 years of freedom. So 350 years tops of slavery minus the 71 years of freedom makes 279 years that they were slaves. God had prophesied they would be slaves 400 years. I say, in his mercy and love, he shortened their time. I also say that this proves he did not foresee the future.

That's my math. Just prove it wrong, or change your theology.

 

[Nang]

Nang. Let's make it simple. If I have hit a nerve, you should be more than willing to attack my points and correct them, instead of just attacking me.

In Genesis 46 we are introduced to a person named Kohath. He was the father of Amram Exodus 6:18. Amram was the father of Noah Exodus 6:20.

Noah was 80 when he lead the children of Israel out of Egypt. Kohath died at 133 and Amram died at 137. 133 + 137 + 80 makes the max time they were in Egypt only as slaves for 350 years.

Joseph was 30 when he was put over Egypt. He died at 110. 2 years into the famine (which happened 7 years later [the seven years of plenty]) Jacob and his children and his children's children entered Egypt. That makes Joseph 39.

That means (Joseph's death 110 - 39 Joseph's age when Jacob moved) leaves another 71 years of freedom. So 350 years tops of slavery minus the 71 years of freedom makes 279 years that they were slaves.

That's my math. Just prove it wrong, or change your theology.

Math is numerology; not theology.

My theology has nothing to do with your OVT.

And my view of this particular subject has already been presented by AMR and the material he gave you to read.

Nang

 

[patman]

Math is numerology; not theology.

My theology has nothing to do with your OVT.

And my view of this particular subject has already been presented by AMR and the material he gave you to read.

Nang

I am still waiting for Lon, RobE, and AMR to comment on this. They keep talking about something completely different. I love their commitment to God. But I wish they would address this.

These numbers could either prove God to be a liar (which he is not) or give strong evidence that the future is open.

I only wish someone would face the numbers.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I only wish someone would face the numbers.

I only wish some would be more interested in "increasing in the knowledge" (Colossians 1:10) by actually studying and reading ground amply plowed before them. :think:

 

[lee_merrill]

We do not have the complete genealogy, I agree. We do have the direct line to Moses tho.

So the point then is that if there can be substantial gaps in this genealogy, there could be substantial gaps in the genealogy of Moses too, so we can't simply add up such numbers and say to look at the total, given a clear example in this very time frame where there must be gaps. So then how about we say the Lord knows how to do the basic arithmetic, and that his numbers are correct?

Blessings,
Lee

 

[patman]

I only wish some would be more interested in "increasing in the knowledge" (Colossians 1:10) by actually studying and reading ground amply plowed before them. :think:

I wish the same:think:

I also wish someone would actually answer a question directly. You could sum it up in a paragraph, couldn't you? And you could just answer the question I restated to Nang...

That would reallllly help both of us.

 

[patman]

So the point then is that if there can be substantial gaps in this genealogy, there could be substantial gaps in the genealogy of Moses too, so we can't simply add up such numbers and say to look at the total, given a clear example in this very time frame where there must be gaps. So then how about we say the Lord knows how to do the basic arithmetic, and that his numbers are correct?

Blessings,
Lee

No. No gaps in the Genalogy. It simply doesn't contain the entire nation's family tree. There is no gap from Levi to Moses.

 

[Lon]

Nang. Let's make it simple. If I have hit a nerve, you should be more than willing to attack my points and correct them, instead of just attacking me.

In Genesis 46 we are introduced to a person named Kohath. He was the father of Amram Exodus 6:18. Amram was the father of Noah Exodus 6:20.

Noah was 80 when he lead the children of Israel out of Egypt. Kohath died at 133 and Amram died at 137. 133 + 137 + 80 makes the max time they were in Egypt only as slaves for 350 years.

Joseph was 30 when he was put over Egypt. He died at 110. 2 years into the famine (which happened 7 years later [the seven years of plenty]) Jacob and his children and his children's children entered Egypt. That makes Joseph 39.

That means (Joseph's death 110 - 39 Joseph's age when Jacob moved) leaves another 71 years of freedom. So 350 years tops of slavery minus the 71 years of freedom makes 279 years that they were slaves. God had prophesied they would be slaves 400 years. I say, in his mercy and love, he shortened their time. I also say that this proves he did not foresee the future.

That's my math. Just prove it wrong, or change your theology.

I know what you are trying to do.

Let me start with a riddle: How many animals did Moses have in the ark?

I'm teasing you here: Noah built the ark.

For starters, and I apologize for making this blunt: You inadvertently replace "Noah" for Moses in your lineage. A whopper of a mistake if you are throwing your work up there with scholars with more degrees behind their name than Vesuvius was hot.

It is clear that you are holding tenaciously to your proof of OV. You said to me: No matter what it says, if it is the truth, we need to be faithful to the truth and adjust our theology accordingly. I wonder if you are open to that same challenge.

AMR's link says in no uncertain terms both that your proof text isn't translated well if it connects the whole ball of wax to enslavement, that they agree with the number of years in Egyptian slavery being less than 400 years. They argue that the 400+year NT reference cannot refer to the time of the judges, and that God meant exactly what turned out in history as His prophecy.

It might prove interesting to you that Joseph was, in fact, a slave in Egypt.
Whatever else might be said, the slavery started early on. We are not told that Joseph or his family ceased being slaves. We are only privy to the fact that in the beginning of Exodus it became harsh. Assumption is that Joseph's rise in status elevated him above slavery but we could see from the text that he was doing Pharoah's service.
We also see Joseph commanding his family to take his bones out of Egypt when they leave. It wouldn't escape Joseph's notice that God had prophesied 400 years.