ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[elected4ever]

It is because we have the indwelling Spirit. The righteousness which is imputed to us is that of the "one Man's righteous act" of Romans 8. God doesn't simply pretend like our sin doesn't exist and call us righteous by fiat. The righteous is based on the righteous action of God the Son at Calvary.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Then our righteousness cannot be said to be an act of volition on our part can it because we received the righteousness we have. You see the difference Clete? A righteous act proceeds from a righteous character that we have received from God. There are righteous acts but they cannot come from an unrighteous character. It is not simple doing an act that is perceived to be right it is being righteous that defines the act.

 

[Mystery]

Then our righteousness cannot be said to be an act of volition on our part can it because we received the righteousness we have. You see the difference Clete? A righteous act proceeds from a righteous character that we have received from God. There are righteous acts but they cannot come from an unrighteous character. It is not simple doing an act that is perceived to be right it is being righteous that defines the act.

This is very well stated. I'll be interested to see if there is a response.

 

[chatmaggot]

Don't know. Why does it matter?

If our deeds were written down in a book from eternity past then we do nothing except follow a prewritten script.

If our deeds are written down as they happen, then our deeds are a result of our choices. God is recording our choices.

 

[dale]

If you forbade her to do something, it was probably because it was wrong. Then you turned around and told her to do what you forbade her to do, thus she is doing wrong. It's not that hard to see.

Sorry, you just don't get it.

The ends justify the means? I think not.

Sometimes. If I lie to prevent a crime.

If I rape a woman who walks in a bad neighborhood to teach her not to walk in bad neighborhoods, and she doesn't anymore, am I justified in having done that, because she learned from it?

Nope. You don't have that authority

And from God's perspective, He causes everyone to sin, but only reconciles a few to Himself. How is God just in condemning the rest?

Muz

There you go again trying to plug my reasoning into your paradigm.

He is not going to reconcile only a few. He will reconcile everyone "But each one in his own order."

I realize if He was going to inflict Eternal Conscious Torment on those He caused to sin, it wouldn't make sense. But, since He uses all these things to ultimately bring those very ones to Himself, it does make sense.

 

[dale]

If our deeds were written down in a book from eternity past then we do nothing except follow a prewritten script.

If our deeds are written down as they happen, then our deeds are a result of our choices. God is recording our choices.

What makes you think they couldn't have been preordained without being "written," then once they actually occurred they were then "written"?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

This is very well stated. I'll be interested to see if there is a response.

I don't see how e4e's response addressed what Clete already said. :idunno:

It seems to me what Clete already stated resolves anything that e4e just posted.

 

[dale]

Then our righteousness cannot be said to be an act of volition on our part can it because we received the righteousness we have. You see the difference Clete? A righteous act proceeds from a righteous character that we have received from God. There are righteous acts but they cannot come from an unrighteous character. It is not simple doing an act that is perceived to be right it is being righteous that defines the act.

That's all great, till the "free willies" go and tell you that you obtain this righteousness through your own faith. As though you drummed up this faith all on your own. Not recognizing that the faith to believe is just as much a gift as the righteousness.

 

[elected4ever]

If you forbade her to do something, it was probably because it was wrong. Then you turned around and told her to do what you forbade her to do, thus she is doing wrong. It's not that hard to see.



The ends justify the means? I think not.

If I rape a woman who walks in a bad neighborhood to teach her not to walk in bad neighborhoods, and she doesn't anymore, am I justified in having done that, because she learned from it?

And from God's perspective, He causes everyone to sin, but only reconciles a few to Himself. How is God just in condemning the rest?

Muz

If you did such a thing then wouldn't you have proved yourself to be of unrighteous character regardless of your motivation? The end does not justify the means as you properly suggest.

What makes you think that a leopard can change its spots. Jesus never saved that which is born of man, namely our sinful character is never changed but simply covered and removed from God's sight by the blood of the sacrifice. If the blood of the sacrifice is not applied by Jesus, not us, there is no covering for our sin. and God sees the unrighteousness that caused the act of unrighteousness and we remain guilty before God.

The character of fallen man is not changed. We, being born of the first Adam, have received the character of the first Adam who died to God the day he first sinned. It is not Adams act that condemned us but the circumstance in which we are born. Namely the death that Adam suffered we were born into and as a result we commit our own acts of sin for which we suffer. It is our condition that condemns us. Our acts that we commit out of that condition are call sins. Why, because we are born separated from the righteousness of God and have adopted our on standard of righteousness which God says are as women's menstrual rags in His sight. That is why our human life must be put to death and the life that is in Christ Jesus that is in harmony with God the Father's life must replace it. We must become a new creation in Christ Jesus. In Christ the old has pasted and all have become new.

 

[Mystery]

It is because we have the indwelling Spirit. The righteousness which is imputed to us is that of the "one Man's righteous act" of Romans 8. God doesn't simply pretend like our sin doesn't exist and call us righteous by fiat. The righteous is based on the righteous action of God the Son at Calvary.

Resting in Him,
Clete

To help Knight see why I agree with e4e.

Jesus could only perform a righteous act because He is righteous.

"If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

 

[Nathon Detroit]

That's all great, till the "free willies" go and tell you that you obtain this righteousness through your own faith.

Name one "freewilly" who thinks any man can obtain his own righteousness through his own faith. Can you name one?

If not, will you publicly retract that post?

 

[elected4ever]

That's all great, till the "free willies" go and tell you that you obtain this righteousness through your own faith. As though you drummed up this faith all on your own. Not recognizing that the faith to believe is just as much a gift as the righteousness.

Not really drummed up faith but faith imparted by Christ to all who believe.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

To help Knight see why I agree with e4e.

Jesus could only perform a righteous act because He is righteous.

"If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

True, but you are agreeing with Clete by throwing in the word "perform". Isn't that Clete's point?

 

[Mystery]

That's all great, till the "free willies" go and tell you that you obtain this righteousness through your own faith. As though you drummed up this faith all on your own. Not recognizing that the faith to believe is just as much a gift as the righteousness.

You do receive the gift of righteousness by faith. And we receive the faith to believe by hearing the gospel that reveals that God is righteous.

"So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ".

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it (the gospel) is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it (the gospel) the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."

 

[elected4ever]

I don't see how e4e's response addressed what Clete already said. :idunno:

It seems to me what Clete already stated resolves anything that e4e just posted.

Or is it that my post resolves all of what Clete posted. We may be talking past one another.

 

[Mystery]

True, but you are agreeing with Clete by throwing in the word "perform". Isn't that Clete's point?

I think Clete has been saying that God is righteous because of what He does, and I am saying He does what He does because He is righteous.

 

[dale]

Name one "freewilly" who thinks any man can obtain his own righteousness through his own faith. Can you name one?

If not, will you publicly retract that post?

I didn't say "his own righteousness through his own faith" I said "this righteousness..." The difference being not that it's your own righteousness, but that it's God's righteousness obtained through your own faith.

I say that because when one says their faith came of their own free will, that would negate their faith being cause by God.

 

[dale]

Not really drummed up faith but faith imparted by Christ to all who believe.

Correct. Faith that is imparted by Christ is not a faith that comes via free will, it comes via Christ.

 

[dale]

You do receive the gift of righteousness by faith. And we receive the faith to believe by hearing the gospel that reveals that God is righteous.

"So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ".

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it (the gospel) is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it (the gospel) the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."

:thumb:

 

[themuzicman]

Sorry, you just don't get it.

I get that you claim to have instructed your daughter to do something you know was wrong for her to do.

Sometimes. If I lie to prevent a crime.

That's not even immoral.

Nope. You don't have that authority

And what gives you the authority to tell your daughter to do something wrong?

There you go again trying to plug my reasoning into your paradigm.

He is not going to reconcile only a few. He will reconcile everyone "But each one in his own order."

I realize if He was going to inflict Eternal Conscious Torment on those He caused to sin, it wouldn't make sense. But, since He uses all these things to ultimately bring those very ones to Himself, it does make sense.

Oh.. didn't realize that you were a universalist. My bad.

Muz

 

[Clete]

Even if I did. If the end result is to teach how God's ways are superior, that sounds like a caring dad to me.

Matthew 18:6 Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.