ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

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godrulz

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elected4ever said:
common usage does not produce truth. You see it every time a whore-monger tell a young girl he loves her just to produce a false belief in her to get his way.


There are a variety of things we and the Bible label as feelings that can be lumped under the category of emotions (as opposed to thoughts or actions). Quit nitpicking.
 

godrulz

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elected4ever said:
I think he is a nut case. and that is what I think of open theism in general. Birds of a feather fly together.


I think you will find the majority of views mainstream. Open Theism is controversial, but held by respected theologians in the past and present. Seeing God as responsive and providential with a partially open future (in contrast to classical doctrines that have Platonic philosophical influences) does not make one a nut case. It is a sincere attempt to understand God's Word and self-revelation. Disagreeing maturely in the faith does not include put downs. Deal with the arguments without argumentum ad hominem.

I am pleased to be a fellow nut with brother Hill. He demonstrates maturity and wisdom in disagreement.

Let us be like the Moravians who knew we need unity in essentials, diversity in non-essentials, and love/charity in all things.
 

RobE

New member
Bob Hill said:
Are you both saying, then, that God does not really have a change in His feelings?

Does repent, when it says God repented, mean what it says or does it mean something else?

Bob Hill

God's emotions don't change. He is loving, kind, generous, sympathetic, caring, etc.....

When these emotions come into play have nothing to do with His plans---just his emotional reaction to the outcomes. God isn't uncaring.

We both know it 'broke' His heart to send the flood.

A change in emotion does not equate to a change in Him. I can be happy, sad, angry, etc; without changing myself. It's the same as changing a plan. To change my plan doesn't change me or God. His character is immutable as you would agree. This being true then what's the problem?

The different definitions of repent boil down to this:

He was sorry and determined it would never be done again. This has no effect on what God foresaw. God could have logically foresaw Himself doing something; yet, when the time came to do it, it saddened Him.

Performing an action is much different than thinking about the same action.

For example: A young man goes to boot camp, learns to shoot a rifle, and goes to target practice; knowing that he's going to have to shoot people later. The emotions don't come into play until he has his target in sight. Hesitation, indecision, and other emotions flood him. It doesn't mean that the 'plan' won't be carried out.

Does this explain it?,

Rob
 

godrulz

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We agree that God's character does not change. Emotions are not character. They are passions or senses or feelings. Any personal being, including God, can experience changing emotions or dispositions without changing their essential nature or character. God's experiences and relations can and do change. This is the face value reading of Scripture. His anger can burn at one moment, and then He can experience joy as the people repent and turn to Him from their false gods.

An 'eternal now' static perspective negates God's will (actions), intellect (thoughts), and emotions (feelings). God experiences an endless duration of time (sequence/succession). This is necessary to experience change without a change in His essential character. If He could not experience change, He would be an impersonal stone idol. Changing thoughts, feelings, and actions within the eternal Godhead show that He is a living God. It is not a threat to His essential nature and character.

Strong immutability is a Platonic concept. Weak immutability recognizes that God changes in some ways (relations, emotions, thoughts, etc.), but not in other ways (essential nature and character).

Let us free our thinking from philosophical influences and take God's self-revelation at face value. We are in His moral, spiritual, and personal image. Just as we change in some ways, but not other ways, so it is true of God Himself (we are an imperfect reflection of this in our personal qualities).
 

RobE

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godrulz said:
We agree that God's character does not change. Emotions are not character. They are passions or senses or feelings. Any personal being, including God, can experience changing emotions or dispositions without changing their essential nature or character. God's experiences and relations can and do change. This is the face value reading of Scripture. His anger can burn at one moment, and then He can experience joy as the people repent and turn to Him from their false gods.

An 'eternal now' static perspective negates God's will (actions), intellect (thoughts), and emotions (feelings). God experiences an endless duration of time (sequence/succession). This is necessary to experience change without a change in His essential character. If He could not experience change, He would be an impersonal stone idol. Changing thoughts, feelings, and actions within the eternal Godhead show that He is a living God. It is not a threat to His essential nature and character.

Strong immutability is a Platonic concept. Weak immutability recognizes that God changes in some ways (relations, emotions, thoughts, etc.), but not in other ways (essential nature and character).

Let us free our thinking from philosophical influences and take God's self-revelation at face value. We are in His moral, spiritual, and personal image. Just as we change in some ways, but not other ways, so it is true of God Himself (we are an imperfect reflection of this in our personal qualities).

Let us also free our thinking from 'a change in emotional state' is the same as 'God changes'. This is a common Open Theist's point of view. If you recongnize that God does not change(non-evolving); then you reject process theology(Clark Pinnock), process philosophy, and Open Theism. All three of these require God to change.

Friends,

RobE

Thanks for all of your good comments, Godrulz.
 

godrulz

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Hall of Fame
RobE said:
Let us also free our thinking from 'a change in emotional state' is the same as 'God changes'. This is a common Open Theist's point of view. If you recongnize that God does not change(non-evolving); then you reject process theology(Clark Pinnock), process philosophy, and Open Theism. All three of these require God to change.

Friends,

RobE

Thanks for all of your good comments, Godrulz.


Have you read Pinnock? In one of his books, he clearly shows the differences between Process and Open Theism. There are some similarities, but he views Process as wrong.

If God thinks one thought at one moment, and other thought at a different moment, this is a change in God's thinking. Perhaps we need to clarify what we mean by change.
 

RobE

New member
godrulz said:
If God thinks one thought at one moment, and other thought at a different moment, this is a change in God's thinking. Perhaps we need to clarify what we mean by change.

Are you saying that if I think, "It's hot outside," one minute; and, I think, 'Red is pretty' the next----that I changed. Come on. What do you mean by 'change'?

Rob
 

RobE

New member
godrulz said:
Have you read Pinnock? In one of his books, he clearly shows the differences between Process and Open Theism. There are some similarities, but he views Process as wrong.

Here's Clark Pinnock

Originally Posted by Norman Geisler

Clark Pinnock on the Bible and God

by Norman L. Geisler


Pinnock on the Bible

The Bible is not Completely Inerrant

"This leaves us with the question, Does the New Testament, did Jesus, teach the perfect errorlessness of the Scriptures? No, not in plain terms" (Pinnock, SP, 57).

Although the New Testament does not teach a strict doctrine of inerrancy, it might be said to encourage a trusting attitude, which inerrancy in a more lenient definition does signify. The fact is that inerrancy is a very flexible term in and of itself" (Pinnock, SP, 77).

"Once we recall how complex a hypothesis inerrancy is, it is obvious that the Bible teaches no such thing explicitly. What it claims, as we have seen, is divine inspiration and a general reliability" (Pinnock, SP, 58).

"Why, then, do scholars insist that the Bible does claim total inerrancy? I can only answer for myself, as one who argued in this way a few years ago. I claimed that the Bible taught total inerrancy because I hoped that it did-I wanted it to" (Pinnock, SP, 58).

"For my part, to go beyond the biblical requirements to a strict position of total errorlessness only brings to the forefront the perplexing features of the Bible that no one can completely explain and overshadows those wonderful certainties of salvation in Christ that ought to be front and center" (Pinnock, SP, 59).

The Inerrancy of Intent, not Fact

"Inerrancy is relative to the intent of the Scriptures, and this has to be hermeneutically determined" (Pinnock, SP, 225).

"All this means is that inerrancy is relative to the intention of the text. If it could be show that the chronicler inflates some of the numbers he uses for his didactic purpose, he would be completely within his rights and not at variance with inerrancy" (Pinnock, SP, 78)

"We will not have to panic when we meet some intractable difficulty. The Bible will seem reliable enough in terms of its soteric [saving] purpose,... In the end this is what the mass of evangelical believers need-not the rationalistic ideal of a perfect Book that is no more, but the trustworthiness of a Bible with truth where it counts, truth that is not so easily threatened by scholarly problems" (Pinnock, SP, 104-105).



The Bible is not the Word of God

"Barth was right to speak about a distance between the Word of God and the text of the Bible" (Pinnock, SP, 99).

"The Bible does not attempt to give the impression that it is flawless in historical or scientific ways. God uses writers with weaknesses and still teaches the truth of revelation through them" (Pinnock, SP, 99).

"What God aims to do through inspiration is to stir up faith in the gospel through the word of Scripture, which remains a human text beset by normal weaknesses [which includes errors]" (Pinnock, SP,100).

"A text that is word for word what God wanted in the first place might as well have been dictated, for all the room it leaves for human agency. This is the kind of thinking behind the militant inerrancy position. God is taken to be the Author of the Bible in such a way that he controlled the writers and every detail of what they wrote" (Pinnock, SP, 101).

The Bible is not Completely Infallible

"The Bible is not a book like the Koran, consisting of nothing but perfectly infallible propositions,... the Bible did not fall from heaven.... We place our trust ultimately in Jesus Christ, not in the Bible.... What the Scriptures do is to present a sound and reliable testimony [but not inerrant] to who he is and what God has done for us" (Pinnock, SP, 100).

He Rejects Warfield's View of Inerrancy

"Inerrancy as Warfield understood it was a good deal more precise than the sort of reliability the Bible proposes. The Bible's emphasis tends to be upon the saving truth of its message and its supreme profitability in the life of faith and discipleship" (Pinnock, SP, 75).

He Rejects ICBI View of Inerrancy

"Therefore, there are a large number of evangelicals in North America appearing to defend the total inerrancy of the Bible. The language they use seems absolute and uncompromising: `The authority of Scripture is inescapably impaired if this total divine inerrancy is in any way limited or disregarded, or made relative to a view of truth contrary to the Bible's own' (Chicago Statement, preamble). It sounds as if the slightest slip or flaw would bring down the whole house of authority. It seems as though we ought to defend the errorlessness of the Bible down to the last dot and tittle in order for it to be a viable religious authority" (Pinnock, SP, 127).

He Holds a Dynamic View of Inspiration, not Plenary Inspiration

"In relation to Scripture, we want to avoid both the idea that the Bible is the product of mere human genius and the idea it came about through mechanical dictation. The via media lies in the direction of a dynamic personal model that upholds both the divine initiative and the human response" (Pinnock, SP, 103).

"Inspiration should be seen as a dynamic work of God. In it, God does not decide every word that is used, one by one but works in the writers in such a way that they make full use of their own skills and vocabulary while giving expression to the divinely inspired message being communicated to them and through them" (Pinnock, SP, 105).



He Redefines Inerrancy and Rejects the Prophetic Model

"The wisest course to take would be to get on with defining inerrancy in relation to the purpose of the Bible and the phenomena it displays. When we do that, we will be surprised how open and permissive a term it is" (Pinnock, SP, 225).

"At times I have felt like rejecting biblical inerrancy because of the narrowness of definition [!! See previous quote] and the crudity of polemics that have accompanied the term. But in the end, I have had to bow to the wisdom that says we need to be unmistakably clear in our convictions about biblical authority, and in the North American context, at least, that means to employ strong language" (Pinnock, SP, 225).

"Paul J. Achtemeier has called attention to the inadequacy of the prophetic model for representing the biblical category of inspiration in its fullness-The Inspiration of Scripture: Problems and Proposals" (Pinnock, SP, 232, n. 8).

He Holds that there are Minor Errors in the Bible

"The authority of the Bible in faith and practice does not rule out the possibility of an occasionally uncertain text, differences in details as between the Gospels, a lack of precision in the chronology of events recorded in the Books of Kings and Chronicles, a prescientific description of the world, and the like" (Pinnock, SP, 104).

"What could truly falsify the Bible would have to be something that could falsify the gospel and Christianity as well. It would have to be a difficulty that would radically call into question the truth of Jesus and His message of good news. Discovering some point of chronology in Matthew that could not be reconciled with a parallel in Luke would certainly not be any such thing" (Pinnock, SP, 129).

"I recognize that the Bible does not make a technical inerrancy claim or go into the kind of detail associated with the term in the contemporary discussion. But I also see a solid basis for trusting the Scriptures in a more general sense in all that they teach and affirm, and I see real danger in giving the impression that the Bible errs in a significant way. Inerrancy is a metaphor for the determination to trust God's Word completely" (Pinnock, SP, 224-225).



He Holds that The Bible Contains Myth and Legend

"In the narrative of the fall of Adam, there are numerous symbolic features (God molding man from dirt, the talking snake, God molding woman from Adam's rib, symbolic trees, four major rivers from one garden, etc.), so that it is natural to ask whether this is not a meaningful narration that does not stick only to factual matters" (Pinnock, SP, 119).

"On the one hand, we cannot rule legend out a priori. It is, after all, a perfectly valid literary form, and we have to admit that it turns up in the Bible in at least some form. We referred already to Job's reference to Leviathan and can mention also Jotham's fable" (Pinnock, Sp, 121-122).

"Thus we are in a bind. Legends are possible in theory-there are apparent legends in the Bible-but we fear actually naming them as such lest we seem to deny the miraculous" (Pinnock, SP, 122).

"When we look at the Bible, it is clear that it is not radically mythical. The influence of myth is there in the Old Testament. The stories of creation and fall, of flood and the tower of Babel, are there in pagan texts and are worked over in Genesis from the angle of Israel's knowledge of God, but the framework is no longer mythical" (Pinnock, SP, 123).

"We read of a coin turning up in a fish's mouth and of the origin of the different languages of humankind. We hear about the magnificent exploits of Sampson and Elisha. We even see evidence of the duplication of miracle stories in the gospels. All of them are things that if we read them in some other book we would surely identify as legends" (Pinnock, Sp, 123).

He Holds Robert Gundry's View of Midrash in Matthew

"There is no mythology to speak of in the New Testament. At most, there are fragments and suggestions of myth: for example, the strange allusion to the bodies of the saints being raised on Good Friday (Matt. 27:52) and the sick being healed through contact with pieces of cloth that had touched Paul's body (Acts 19:11-12)" (Pinnock, SP, 124).

"There are cases in which the possibility of legend seems quite real. I mentioned the incident of the coin in the fish's mouth (Matt. 17:24-27).... The event is recorded only by Matthew and has the feel of a legendary feature" (Pinnock, SP, 125). [Yet Gundry was asked to resign from ETS by 74 percent of the membership.]

Pinnock on God

The Bible Has False Prophecy

"Second, some prophecies are conditional, leaving the future open, and, presumably, God's knowledge of it" (Pinnock, MMM, 50).

"Third, there are imprecise prophetic forecasts based on present situations, as when Jesus predicts the fall of Jerusalem (Pinnock, MMM, 50).

"...despite Ezekiel, Nebuchadnezzar did not conquer the city of Tyre; despite the Baptist, Jesus did not cast the wicked into the fire; contrary to Paul, the second coming was not just around the corner (1 Thes. 4:17)" (Pinock, MMM, 51 n.66).



Even Jesus Made a False Prophecy

"...despite Jesus, in the destruction of the temple, some stones were left one on the other" (Mt. 24:2)" (Pinnock, MMM, 51 n.66).



God is not Bound to His Own Word

"God is free in the manner of fulfilling prophecy and is not bound to a script, even his own" (Pinnock, MMM, 51 n.66).

"We may not want to admit it but prophecies often go unfulfilled..." (Pinnock, MMM, 51, n.66).

God is Limited and Corporeal

"But, in a sense, creation was also an act of self-limitation.... Creating human beings who have true freedom is a self-restraining, self-humbling and self-sacrificing act on God's part" (Pinnock, MMM, 31).

"As regards space, the Bible speaks of God having living space in the heavens:... Let's not tilt overly to transcendence lest we miss the truth that God is with us in space" (Pinnock, MMM, 32).

"If he is with us in the world, if we are to take biblical metaphors seriously, is God in some way embodied? Critics will be quick to say that, although there are expressions of this idea in the Bible, they are not to be taken literally. But I do not believe that the idea is as foreign to the Bible's view of God as we have assumed" (Pinnock, MMM, 33).

" The only persons we encounter are embodied persons and, if God is not embodied, it may prove difficult to understand how God is a person....Perhaps God uses the created order as a kind of body and exercises top-down causation upon it" (Pinnock, MMM, 34-35).



God's Foreknowledge is Limited

"It is unsound to think of exhaustive foreknowledge, implying that every detail of the future is already decided" (Pinnock, MMM, 8).

"Though God knows all there is to know about the world, there are aspects about the future that even God does not know" (Pinnock, MMM, 32).

"Scripture makes a distinction with respect to the future; God is certain about some aspects of it and uncertain about other aspects" (Pinnock, MMM, 47).

"But no being, not even God, can know in advance precisely what free agents will do, even though he may predict it with great accuracy" (Pinnock, MMM, 100).

"God, in order to be omniscient, need not know the future in complete detail" (Pinnock, MMM, 100).



God Changes His Mind

"Divine repentance is an important biblical theme" (Pinnock, MMM, 43).

"Nevertheless, it appears that God is willing to change course..." (Pinnock, MMM, 43).

"Prayer is an activity that brings new possibilities into existence for God and us" (Pinnock, MMM, 46).



God is Dependent on Creatures

"According to the open view, God freely decided to be, in some respects, affected and conditioned by creatures..." (Pinnock, MMM, 5).

"In a sense God needs our love because he has freely chosen to be a lover and needs us because he has chosen to have reciprocal love..." (Pinnock, MMM, 30).

"The world is dependent on God but God has also, voluntarily, made himself dependent on it.... God is also affected by the world." (Pinnock, MMM, 31).

God is not in Complete Control of the World

"This means that God is not now in complete control of the world.... things happen which God has not willed.... God's plans at this point in history are not always fulfilled" (Pinnock, MMM, 36).

"Not everything that happens in the world happens for some reason,.... things that should not have happened, things that God did not want to happen. They occur because God goes in for real relationships and real partnerships" (Pinnock, MMM, 47).

"As Boyd puts it: 'Only if God is the God of what might be and not only the God of what will be can we trust him to steer us...'" (Pinnock affirming Boyd, MMM, 103).

"Though God can bring good out of evil, it does not make evil itself good and does not even ensure that God will succeed in every case to bring good out of it" (Pinnock, MMM, 176).

"It does seem possible to read the text to be saying that God is an all-controlling absolute Being.... but how does the Spirit want us to read it? Which interpretation is right for the present circumstance? Which interpretation is timely? Only time will tell..." (Pinnock, MMM, 64).

God Undergoes Change

"For example, even though the Bible says repeatedly that God changes his mind and alters his course of action, conventional theists reject the metaphor and deny that such things are possible for God" (Pinnock, MMM, 63).

"I would say that God is unchangeable in changeable ways,..." (Pinnock, MMM, 85-86).

"On the other hand, being a person and not an abstraction, God changes in relation to creatures.... God changed when he became creator of the world... " (Pinnock, MMM, 86).

"...accepting passibility may require the kind of doctrinal revisions which the open view is engaged in. If God is passible, then he is not, for example, unconditioned, immutable and atemporal" (Pinnock, MMM, 59, n.82).



He Admits Affinity with Process Theology

"The conventional package of attributes is tightly drawn. Tinkering with one or two of them will not help much" (Pinnock, MMM, 78).

"Candidly, I believe that conventional theists are influenced by Plato, who was a pagan, I am by Whitehead, who was a Christian" (Pinnock, MMM, 143) [Yet Whithead denied virtually all of the attributes of the God of orthodox theology, biblical inerrancy, and all the fundamentals of the Faith!!!]

__________________________________________________ ___________________________

All italic emphasis in original, bold emphasis this author's.

SP--Clark Pinnock, The Scripture Principle (San Francisco, Harper & Rowe: 1984).

MMM--Clark Pinnock, The Most Moved Mover (Grand Rapids, Baker: 2001).

Yours,

Rob
 

godrulz

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Hall of Fame
RobE said:
Are you saying that if I think, "It's hot outside," one minute; and, I think, 'Red is pretty' the next----that I changed. Come on. What do you mean by 'change'?

Rob


My thoughts change. This is new reality and new experience.

Do you think God experiences all reality in one 'eternal now' simultaneity, or does He think, act, feel sequentially (in succession)?
 

godrulz

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I do not agree with Pinnock on everything. He has clarified or changed some of his statements in response to criticism from ETS.
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Pinnock has continuously changed what he believes. At one time, I thought he was an excellent theologian. I'm not saying we shouldn't change. I've changed many times in my 54 years as a Christian, but Pinnock has continued to change drastically on major things.

Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Robe,

When God says He is going to do something, or something is going to happen, and then in either case, it does not, that's a change.

He is a gracious God and is willing to change when man changed.

Bob Hill
 

RobE

New member
Bob Hill said:
Robe,

When God says He is going to do something, or something is going to happen, and then in either case, it does not, that's a change.

He is a gracious God and is willing to change when man changed.

Bob Hill

Yet it isn't a change in God when He changes what He's doing, is it?

Rob
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
In the past I have seen that God repented.
A. That He had made man when He saw the wickedness. Gen 6:6,7
B. After He said He would destroy Israel. Ex 32:9-14
C. That He set up Saul as king. 1 Sam 15.
D. And actually gave guidelines so He could be persuaded to repent. Jer 18; Eze 18
But is
E. Weary of repenting. Jer 15:6
I also have found that
A. God asks what more could I do? Isa 5:1-7
B. God says perhaps. Jer 26:3; 36:3; Eze 12:3
C. God wonders. Isa 59:15-16
Therefore, my conclusion is – God is free and created free agents who can influence Him.

Praise God,
Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
It's like when god said He was going to destroy Tyre and make it like the top of a rock. But that didn't happen.
 

RobE

New member
Bob Hill said:
In the past I have seen that God repented.
A. That He had made man when He saw the wickedness. Gen 6:6,7
B. After He said He would destroy Israel. Ex 32:9-14
C. That He set up Saul as king. 1 Sam 15.
D. And actually gave guidelines so He could be persuaded to repent. Jer 18; Eze 18
But is
E. Weary of repenting. Jer 15:6
I also have found that
A. God asks what more could I do? Isa 5:1-7
B. God says perhaps. Jer 26:3; 36:3; Eze 12:3
C. God wonders. Isa 59:15-16
Therefore, my conclusion is – God is free and created free agents who can influence Him.

Praise God,
Bob Hill

l agree, but these facts don't negate God's ability to 'know the future' accurately. Just as Bob E. says: God is free to change the future; man can't change the future. Open Theism must rely on man's ability to change the future; otherwise, it's only Traditional Christianity restated. Augustine would agree.

Friends,

Rob
 

RobE

New member
Bob Hill said:
It's like when god said He was going to destroy Tyre and make it like the top of a rock. But that didn't happen.


Yet God did through Alexander. It just wasn't Neb. As I pointed out before when you asked about Tyre.

Rob
 
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