ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
- Thread starter ChristisKing
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The settled view flows logically from the premise that God is immutable. If the premise is false then the conclusion must be rejected unless the same conclusion can be arrived at by some other logical means which is sound. But in this case that is not possible because God is either mutable or He is not and if He is not, which you have already admited then there is no logical means by which one can come to the settled view. Thus the settled view hangs by the single thread of the immutability of God. Falsifying one falsifies both.RobE said:
Resting in Him,
Clete
RobE
New member
Clete said:
Even the Open View expresses that God is immutable in character; but not actions. I submit that Augustine and all of traditional Christianity has said the exact thing for 2000 years. Don't muddy the water by equating a change in mind with a change in character. You say that you don't, but then use the same arguments which involve a change in mind(emotion) again, and again, and again.....
Friends,
Rob
I say I don't because I don't. What Augustine believed is irrelivent, although there is no reason to believe that he rejected the Aristotilian logic that yeilded the pagan doctrine of fate. The fact is that the settled view is, in fact, based logically on the premise that God is immutable. God is not immutable and thus the foundation of the settled view is sinking sand. Basically, the settled view cannot survive a God that can change His mind or anthing else.RobE said:
Resting in Him,
Clete
RobE
New member
Clete said:
Here let me prove it.
Tell me a time when God changed without mentioning a change of mind or emotion. Remember during the incarnation God the Father and the Holy Spirit didn't mutate; thus making the Triune God the same as he'd always been. Someone walked with Abraham and Enoch so if the incarnation was a change for God then who was with them? Are you saying God in heaven was less when Jesus was incarnate?
Thanks,
Rob
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Sozo wrote
Didn't the death of Jesus resolve this?
Does God still judge man for their evil ways, or only because they refuse His Son?
We who are saved will be judged for what we have done for the Lord according to 1 Cor 3:7-15
So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Didn't the death of Jesus resolve this?
Does God still judge man for their evil ways, or only because they refuse His Son?
We who are saved will be judged for what we have done for the Lord according to 1 Cor 3:7-15
So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
My God laments over other peoples.
Isa 15:5 My heart will cry out for Moab; His fugitives shall flee to Zoar, Like a three-year-old heifer. For by the Ascent of Luhith They will go up with weeping; For in the way of Horonaim They will raise up a cry of destruction,
Isa 16:6-13 We have heard of the pride of Moab—He is very proud—Of his haughtiness and his pride and his wrath; But his lies shall not be so. 7 Therefore Moab shall wail for Moab; Everyone shall wail. For the foundations of Kir Hareseth you shall mourn; Surely they are stricken. 8 For the fields of Heshbon languish, And the vine of Sibmah; The lords of the nations have broken down its choice plants, Which have reached to Jazer And wandered through the wilderness. Her branches are stretched out, They are gone over the sea. 9 Therefore I will bewail the vine of Sibmah, with the weeping of Jazer; I will drench you with my tears, O Heshbon and Elealeh; For battle cries have fallen over your summer fruits and your harvest. 10 Gladness is taken away, and joy from the plentiful field; In the vineyards there will be no singing, Nor will there be shouting; No treaders will tread out wine in the presses; I have made their shouting cease. 11 Therefore my heart shall resound like a harp for Moab, And my inner being for Kir Heres. 12 And it shall come to pass, when it is seen that Moab is weary on the high place, that he will come to his sanctuary to pray; But he will not prevail. 13 This is the word which the LORD has spoken concerning Moab since that time.
Bob Hill
Isa 15:5 My heart will cry out for Moab; His fugitives shall flee to Zoar, Like a three-year-old heifer. For by the Ascent of Luhith They will go up with weeping; For in the way of Horonaim They will raise up a cry of destruction,
Isa 16:6-13 We have heard of the pride of Moab—He is very proud—Of his haughtiness and his pride and his wrath; But his lies shall not be so. 7 Therefore Moab shall wail for Moab; Everyone shall wail. For the foundations of Kir Hareseth you shall mourn; Surely they are stricken. 8 For the fields of Heshbon languish, And the vine of Sibmah; The lords of the nations have broken down its choice plants, Which have reached to Jazer And wandered through the wilderness. Her branches are stretched out, They are gone over the sea. 9 Therefore I will bewail the vine of Sibmah, with the weeping of Jazer; I will drench you with my tears, O Heshbon and Elealeh; For battle cries have fallen over your summer fruits and your harvest. 10 Gladness is taken away, and joy from the plentiful field; In the vineyards there will be no singing, Nor will there be shouting; No treaders will tread out wine in the presses; I have made their shouting cease. 11 Therefore my heart shall resound like a harp for Moab, And my inner being for Kir Heres. 12 And it shall come to pass, when it is seen that Moab is weary on the high place, that he will come to his sanctuary to pray; But he will not prevail. 13 This is the word which the LORD has spoken concerning Moab since that time.
Bob Hill
RobE said:
John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.[/quote]
and...
John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit
and...
Luke 24:1 Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them,[a] came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. 2 But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. 3 Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. 5 Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, 7 saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’”.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Sozo
New member
Bob Hill said:
Bob,
Thank you for responding!
Let me see if I can elaborate on what you have been saying, and what prompted my question in the previous post.
You are showing how God has repented (changed his mind, and course of action) towards man at various times in history.
I was pointing out (although, not vey well), that the death of Jesus resulted in the ultimate repentance of God towards man. Because of Christ's death and our justification, God has changed His mind about us, and now it is up to us to change our minds about Him.
"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."
Now, the verses you brought up concerning rewards relate to the other thread where I was hoping we would come to some conclusions, but as yet we have not.
I don't believe these verses have anything to do with heavenly rewards as such regarding works, but those rewards are simply the souls that have come to Christ through the untainted message of the gospel delivered by those who are entrusted with it. If the message is built on the proper foundation, then it will be evident on the Day of judgment. If not, then it will also be evident.
RobE
New member
My Question Tonight:
My question is what did Jesus mean when He said this? If God knew the day and hour then He has to have foresight. Yes or No.
If no, then why did Jesus say something that wasn't true. Remember, the day and hour requires that nothing could change the day and hour, right? Good Luck.
Thanks for all your great comments especially Mr. Hill.
Your Brother in Christ,
Rob Mauldin
Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
My question is what did Jesus mean when He said this? If God knew the day and hour then He has to have foresight. Yes or No.
If no, then why did Jesus say something that wasn't true. Remember, the day and hour requires that nothing could change the day and hour, right? Good Luck.
Thanks for all your great comments especially Mr. Hill.
Your Brother in Christ,
Rob Mauldin
Jesus was saying that it is the Father who determines when the Kingdom will be set up. His comment does not have to mean that the specific day and hour had already been determined but only that when it is determined it will be determined by the Father and not by anyone else.RobE said:
Resting in Him,
Clete
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