ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[RobE]

Clete,

I know you spend a lot of time posting and reading posts on TOL so I'll re-state my position as simply as possible and answer your last post, again.

The ability to do something doesn't require that you do it(excercise your ability), right?

God can destroy(ability) Tyre but won't. The fact that He doesn't destroy Tyre doesn't mean that He is incapable(unable) of it.

Clete can become(ability) a Calvinist. The fact that you don't become a Calvinist has nothing to do with your being incapable(unable) of becoming a Calvinist.​

Likewise what you will do(outcome) has no bearing on what you can choose to do(ability), right?

God can destroy(ability) Tyre but won't. The fact that He doesn't destroy Tyre(outcome) doesn't mean that He is incapable(unable) of it.

Clete can become(ability) a Calvinist. The fact that you don't become a Calvinist(outcome) has nothing to do with your being incapable(unable) of becoming a Calvinist.​

So, what God foresees you doing(outcome) has no bearing on your free choice(ability), right? He didn't make you do it. You did it. He only saw the outcome of your free choice.

Originally Posted by RobE

CQ1: If God knows what I will do in the future, can I by an act of my own will, do other than what He knows I will do?

RA1: No.

That's a contradiction RobE. Your position is illogical and therefore false. The contradiction is all the proof that is necessary because truth, by definition, is not self-contradictory.

My last three post pointed out this exact fact and explained to you that by requiring me to answer either 'Yes' or 'No' caused an antinomy. Do you even read my posts or understand them? Below is my response to your original question.

I'm going to ask you a question and if you answer with anything other that "yes" or "no" I will take it as proof that you are simply being intentionally asinine and I'll let you waste someone else's time.

CQ1: If God knows what I will do in the future, can I by an act of my own will, do other than what He knows I will do?

RA1: No.

RA1:Correct answer to your first question(not limited to yes or no):

You can act of your own will, but He already knows what you will do as a matter of fact. In short: You're capable 'of doing or doing otherwise', but it doesn't prevent Him from knowing what you will do in advance of you doing it because He's very smart.

CQ2: If no, then how can it be said that I can do or do otherwise as our accepted definition of free will demands?

RA2: God knows what you will do in the future as a matter of fact even though you are capable of 'doing or doing otherwise' in the future. It's the limitation of your capability which curbs your freedom; not what He knows or doesn't know.

In short His knowledge doesn't interfere with your capability.

Please take time to read this post,

Your Friend

Rob Mauldin

 

[Bob Hill]

Rob Mauldin

I realize that most Christians believe that God knows all of the future.

I realize God is all knowing, but that does not mean He knows all of the future. Here is why I believe the Bible shows us that God does not know all of the future.

Here are some passages that show God doesn’t know for sure what the future actions of man will be in all cases: Gen 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

I think the most interesting passage is Jer 3:6,7 The LORD said also to me in the days of Josiah the king: “Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot. 7 “And I said, after she had done all these things, ‘She will return to Me’ [ay lee tah shuv 3rd p. s. f.] But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
God expected Israel to respond differently to His love. But they didn’t.

God was not absolutely sure that Israel would be stalwart enough to go by way of the Philistines’ territory when they left Egypt. Ex 13:17 Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, “Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.”

God thought Israel would turn from their evil ways when God had Jeremiah prophecy. Jer 26:1-3 In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, this word came from the LORD, saying, 2 “Thus says the LORD: ‘Stand in the court of the Lord’s house, and speak to all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the Lord’s house, all the words that I command you to speak to them. Do not diminish a word. 3 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings.’” Similar statements were made in Jer 36:3 “It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the adversities which I purpose to bring upon them, that everyone may turn from his evil way, that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.”

In Isa 5:1-4, God shows that man doesn’t respond to our wonderful God even when He does everything that He can do, to or, for a free will being: Isa 5:1-4 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved a song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard on a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, and planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, and also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, but it brought forth wild grapes. 3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

Sometimes, God changes His mind, or repents, because of man’s actions. The word, repent, is used of Job when he repented before the Lord. When Job was talking to God, he said in Job 42:5-6: “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent [Heb. na gham] in dust and ashes.” What does the word na gham mean? This same word is used of God repeatedly. Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD repented [na gham] that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I repent [na gham] that I have made them.”

One of the most interesting OT passages is the one where God repents twice and doesn’t repent once. 1 Sa 15:11,29,35 “I repent [na gham] that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments.” And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the LORD all night. 29 “And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent [na gham]. For He is not a man, that He should repent. ” 35 And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the LORD repented [na gham repented] that He had made Saul king over Israel.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Rob,

There are many more repent verses pertaining to God.

Bob

 

[godrulz]

Rob,

There are many more repent verses pertaining to God.

Bob

:thumb:

There is no reason to anthropomorphize these passages. We should change our theology, not the Word of God.

 

[RobE]

Response to Bob Hill

Response to Bob Hill

Thank you Mr. Hill for you post and I'll try to respond to the individual scriptures as time allows.

For now I just wanted to let you know that I believe our Holy Lord is capable of changing the future just as Bob Enyart posted in the debate with Dr. Lamerson. My dispute with Clete is whether a human is capable of changing the future; because Clete feels that if God knows a man's outcome that free will is irradicated. It is not.

Does God know eternity completely as a resolved set of outcomes? He may be capable of that, but in my opinion since He can do anything possible and He is free to do 'New' things; then, the future could be changed by Him. From that point foreward though, He would be able to predict(see) the future as it unfolded based on the status of(and in relation to) the current situation.

Clete feels that man changing his actions changes God's reactions, etc. Not true. God changes man, not man God. Prayer is a request for God to change outcomes and to commune with our Lord. Prayer has no meaning if God can't change the future. If you read Augustine's writings, you'll soon see that this was Augustine's belief as well. Open Theism has no knew thought of its own(except in its attempt to incorporate process theology(evolution) into Christianity).

Tests, like Abraham, show the true inner man. Did God know Abraham's outcome was heavenly? Of course. Did God know the level of commitment that Abraham had? The test answered God's question. God is immutable. Man is not.

Thanks for your response and I'll try to speak to some of your other verses when time allows,

Your Brother in Christ,

Rob

 

[RobE]

In Isa 5:1-4, God shows that man doesn’t respond to our wonderful God even when He does everything that He can do, to or, for a free will being: Isa 5:1-4 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved a song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard on a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, and planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, and also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, but it brought forth wild grapes. 3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

What is God saying here exactly:

In my opinion He's saying I can't be held responsible because I did all that I could. God's expectations(hopes) are for all to be saved; yet some won't. Why, Israel, did you do evil when I did everything in my power to create an environment for you to do good? Don't hold me responsible.

It's a statement declaring innocence for Israel's poor choices; not saying that Israel surprised Him in any way. Much prophecy is phrased this way. Later in the chapter I'm sure you'll find scripture which foretells God's surety and promise keeping.

Yours,

Rob

 

[RobE]

Sometimes, God changes His mind, or repents, because of man’s actions. The word, repent, is used of Job when he repented before the Lord. When Job was talking to God, he said in Job 42:5-6: “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent [Heb. na gham] in dust and ashes.” What does the word na gham mean? This same word is used of God repeatedly. Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD repented [na gham] that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I repent [na gham] that I have made them.”

Yet, part of true repentence, is to cease from activity. If God repented in saying that 'I shouldn't of done it', etc...; then, why Noah? To continue repenting? To say that God was grieved or stricken with loss because He hoped all would be saved is more accurate. God doesn't take joy in loss of His 'good' creation; and, knowing the day would come for removing 'branches' from the 'vine' didn't mean there wasn't sorrow for that which was lost. Seeing is different than doing.......

Originally Posted by Rob

Patrick had a sick cat that He needed to put to sleep, today. The cat had been in his family for five years, but was now sick beyond any help. He knew this day would come because he had dealt with many family pets and their problems before. He had found himself in this situation more than once over the years. Patrick knew what he had to do and it was time. As he grabbed his rifle and took the cat outside; the sorrow built in his heart and mind. A tear welled in his eye. He hated this part of the process and he swore that this would be the last cat he would have. Actually, as he looked into the cats eyes, he was sorry he ever got this one. He didn't know why this morning the thought of 'taking care of the cat' seemed, logically, to be a simple thing----but now; as it came down to it, he was moved to the point of tears and----- repented of ever having it; even though, when he got the cat, he knew this day would come.

___________________________

God gave Israel the King they wanted in Saul......

4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, "You are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have."

6 But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do."

10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."

God was grieved for what Saul did to them later.....

One of the most interesting OT passages is the one where God repents twice and doesn’t repent once. 1 Sa 15:11,29,35 “I repent [na gham] that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments.” And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the LORD all night. 29 “And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent [na gham]. For He is not a man, that He should repent. ” 35 And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the LORD repented [na gham repented] that He had made Saul king over Israel.F

Again....seeing an eventuality is quite different than living that same eventuality, isn't it?

Yours,

Rob

 

[Bob Hill]

Rob,

What does it mean when it says about God , "the LORD repented [na gham repented] that He had made Saul king over Israel.?

Bob Hill

 

[RobE]

Rob,

What does it mean when it says about God , "the LORD repented [na gham repented] that He had made Saul king over Israel.?

Bob Hill

It means He was sorry and would never do it again. It also implies God felt that it was wrong to do it. Nevertheless, it doesn't say He didn't know beforehand that it would be done---just that He was sorry once it was done.

New International Version

5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

He 'na gham' that he made man, yet saved Noah. Was His 'na gham' enough to start completely over or did He continue with His perfect plan? Remember Sodom's 10 righteous. The Ark continued His design even though 'I will wipe mankind'...'men and animals'....

8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 "I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth."

Never again.

Thanks,

Rob

 

[elected4ever]

Rob,

What does it mean when it says about God , "the LORD repented [na gham repented] that He had made Saul king over Israel.?

Bob Hill

It does not mean that God changed His mind about anything. He felt sorrow that it had not worked out for Saul. Saul was the peoples choice and not God's. It does not say that it was a wrong act in appointing Saul. I don't think it strange that God has emotion. If God made a mistake in the appointment of Saul then God would cease to be God. Appointing Saul was not a mistake and God did not consider it one.

 

[Bob Hill]

Are you both saying, then, that God does not really have a change in His feelings?

Does repent, when it says God repented, mean what it says or does it mean something else?

Bob Hill

 

[elected4ever]

Are you both saying, then, that God does not really have a change in His feelings?

Does repent, when it says God repented, mean what it says or does it mean something else?

Bob Hill

Is love a feeling or an emotion?

 

[Bob Hill]

It can be both a feeling and an emotion and more. It can be something God wants us to do to our enemy.

Bob Hill :zoomin:

 

[elected4ever]

It can be both a feeling and an emotion and more. It can be something God wants us to do to our enemy.

Bob Hill :zoomin:

What a cop out. Emotions produce feelings. Emotions can be controlled. A person don't feel like loving. A person chooses to love. If you do something because you feel like it you can bet it is for self gratification.

God felt sorrow ,repented, because God loved Saul. Love produced sorrow because of Saul's failure.

 

[godrulz]

It does not mean that God changed His mind about anything. He felt sorrow that it had not worked out for Saul. Saul was the peoples choice and not God's. It does not say that it was a wrong act in appointing Saul. I don't think it strange that God has emotion. If God made a mistake in the appointment of Saul then God would cease to be God. Appointing Saul was not a mistake and God did not consider it one.

God gave the people what they wanted even though He thought it was not wise (king vs theocracy). This shows that God gives us significant freedom to influence history. He works with us, not just unilaterally. This is within His sovereign choice. He could have created a deterministic universe, but He did not. God did change His mind and feelings when circumstances changed. He was not 'wrong' (though the good is the enemy of best vs good vs bad), but He was grieved when Saul changed. This is a genuine change in God's inner disposition (will, intellect, and emotions). At the time, it was a reasonable choice. Once Hitler or others take an evil course, God does not cease to be God?! He used Charles Templeton as an effective evangelist. When Templeton apostasized, God changed His relations with Templeton (forsook ministry and his faith). Creating man was not a mistake, but when man Fell, God changed His mind and emotions, wanting to wipe Him out. This is not a 'mistake', but the appropriate change in an unchanging God (His love and holiness). There is no need to think God would cease to be God just because circumstances change over time. Judas was appointed to the inner circle of Jesus' ministry. At the time, this was a wise choice (after praying to the Father). As Judas turned away from Christ and became a son of perdition, God removed him from his ministry and the faith. God did not cease to be God just because He wisely responded to man's fickleness. He would compromise His character and ways if He did NOT change. Christianity should not be viewed through pagan Plato's unmoved mover filter.

 

[godrulz]

What a cop out. Emotions produce feelings. Emotions can be controlled. A person don't feel like loving. A person chooses to love. If you do something because you feel like it you can bet it is for self gratification.

God felt sorrow ,repented, because God loved Saul. Love produced sorrow because of Saul's failure.

Will= actions

Emotions= feelings (why the artificial distinction)?

Intellect= thoughts

Emotions are the same thing as feelings. Emotions are morally neutral. They follow belief. Love is primarily volitional (with or without warm fuzzies).

God's grief and broken heart flow out of knowing the truth about reality. He said creation was very good and wanted the best for it. When man rejected God's wisdom, it grieved God knowing it was hurting His creation and His own heart that always seeks the highest good of His own being and that of His creation.

 

[elected4ever]

Will= actions

Emotions= feelings (why the artificial distinction)?

Intellect= thoughts

Emotions are the same thing as feelings. Emotions are morally neutral. They follow belief. Love is primarily volitional (with or without warm fuzzies).

God's grief and broken heart flow out of knowing the truth about reality. He said creation was very good and wanted the best for it. When man rejected God's wisdom, it grieved God knowing it was hurting His creation and His own heart that always seeks the highest good of His own being and that of His creation.

This is one dumb post.

 

[elected4ever]

Will and actions are not the same thing. Will can produce actions.

emotions are not feelings. They produce feelings

intellect is not though but produces thoughts.

 

[godrulz]

This is one dumb post.

change = to =>>

Sorry I was not clear. I knew what I meant.

Emotions do not produce feelings. Our will and intellect will lead to feelings. Fear can be said to be a feeling or an emotion. The dictionary does not make an artificial distinction between them. Words can also be used with different nuances of meaning depending on the context.

 

[elected4ever]

change = to =>>

Sorry I was not clear. I knew what I meant.

Emotions do not produce feelings. Our will and intellect will lead to feelings. Fear can be said to be a feeling or an emotion. The dictionary does not make an artificial distinction between them. Words can also be used with different nuances of meaning depending on the context.

common usage does not produce truth. You see it every time a whore-monger tell a young girl he loves her just to produce a false belief in her to get his way.