ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Bob Hill]

In this present Dispensation of Grace, we are free from the legalism of other dispensations with the needed works for salvation. This Dispensation of Grace is very unique when we contrast it to all of the others dispesations.

Bob Hill

 

[sentientsynth]

Lee,

Do you, like me, find it amazing that some within TOL teach that unsaved men have *more* freedom of will than saved men?

I find this amazing.



SS

 

[Philetus]

Lee,

Do you, like me, find it amazing that some within TOL teach that unsaved men have *more* freedom of will than saved men?

I find this amazing.



SS

SS,
Where do you get that? I'm not sure what you are referring to. Can you be more specific?
Philetus
​

 

[sentientsynth]

Philetus,

I'll be happy to be more specific...in time. For now, try to think it through for yourself. What could I be talking about?

Is there something, anything that unsaved men have more options in than saved men?



SS

 

[Philetus]

Philetus,

I'll be happy to be more specific...in time. For now, try to think it through for yourself. What could I be talking about?

Is there something, anything that unsaved men have more options in than saved men?



SS

Sorry, still not clicking with me.​

 

[godrulz]

Sorry, still not clicking with me.​

nor I (or is it me?)

 

[sentientsynth]

Unbelievers can decide _________ or _________.
Believer cannot decide __________.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

 

[Clete]

Unbelievers can decide _________ or _________.
Believer cannot decide __________.

To go to Hell?

 

[sentientsynth]

To go to Hell?

:first:

First prize to Clete!

You see, unbelievers can choose to go to heaven or to hell. But believers cannot choose to go to hell.

Thanks for playing.

 

[Clete]

:first:

First prize to Clete!

You see, unbelievers can choose to go to heaven or to hell. But believers cannot choose to go to hell.

Thanks for playing.

I had a feeling that was the answer you were going for but I do not believe this is true.
Beleivers are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption but when that day comes, if there is someone who has grown to hate God and doesn't want to stay with Him forever, I don't believe that God is going to force them to stick around against their will.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Philetus]

:first:

First prize to Clete!

You see, unbelievers can choose to go to heaven or to hell. But believers cannot choose to go to hell.

Thanks for playing.

Cute. But, somehow I don't think that was what you were initially referring to.

Do you, like me, find it amazing that some within TOL teach that unsaved men have *more* freedom of will than saved men?

I find this amazing.

SS

Was it?​

 

[Nathon Detroit]

:first:

First prize to Clete!

You see, unbelievers can choose to go to heaven or to hell. But believers cannot choose to go to hell.

Thanks for playing.

And don't forget....

Unbelievers CANNOT choose to go to heaven in a way other than what God has determined in advance. I.e., A man cannot choose to go to heaven through atheism or by being a Wiccan.

Settled viewers often confuse freewill with UNLIMITED WILL, which no Open Viewer teaches.

And the strawman followed Dorothy all the way to Oz.

 

[godrulz]

:first:

First prize to Clete!

You see, unbelievers can choose to go to heaven or to hell. But believers cannot choose to go to hell.

Thanks for playing.

I believe it is possible for a believer to revert to apostasy and fall away to their former state of unbelief. Faith must continue/persist vs one-time choice.

Unbelievers generally do not 'chose' to go to hell. This is a consequence of their persistence in unbelief and rebellion. We can chose to receive or reject Christ. The Gospel is preached persuasively to all men and the Spirit desires to win all to Christ.

An unbeliever and a believer can chose between chocolate or vanilla, between sexual purity or immorality, etc.

Genuine freedom is self-evident. This is why we are responsible/culpable for our choices and God is not arbitrary or limited in His impartial love (He does not save some and damn others that He could save if He wanted to). Contingency is no excuse for man misusing his freedom. It was not God's intention or desire for man to rebel or reject the plan of redemption individually.

 

[godrulz]

I had a feeling that was the answer you were going for but I do not believe this is true.
Beleivers are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption but when that day comes, if there is someone who has grown to hate God and doesn't want to stay with Him forever, I don't believe that God is going to force them to stick around against their will.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Speculative or explicit Scripture? A new twist on my non-OSAS view?

 

[Philetus]

And don't forget....

Unbelievers CANNOT choose to go to heaven in a way other than what God has determined in advance. I.e., A man cannot choose to go to heaven through atheism or by being a Wiccan.

Settled viewers often confuse freewill with UNLIMITED WILL, which no Open Viewer teaches.

And the strawman followed Dorothy all the way to Oz.

There is a sense in which our freewill as believers is further limited by our volitional submission to the authority of Christ; having the mind of Christ and enjoying the fellowship of His suffering … not in that we have less ‘freewill’ but rather as bond-servants of Christ we choose to submit to His will. So it isn’t really a matter of more or less freedom, but how one decides to exercise that freedom in light of the claims Christ makes on us as His disciples.

godrulz: Contingency is no excuse for man misusing his freedom. It was not God's intention or desire for man to rebel or reject the plan of redemption individually.

​

 

[Philetus]

I believe it is possible for a believer to revert to apostasy and fall away to their former state of unbelief. Faith must continue/persist vs one-time choice.

Unbelievers generally do not 'chose' to go to hell. This is a consequence of their persistence in unbelief and rebellion. We can chose to receive or reject Christ. The Gospel is preached persuasively to all men and the Spirit desires to win all to Christ.

An unbeliever and a believer can chose between chocolate or vanilla, between sexual purity or immorality, etc.

Genuine freedom is self-evident. This is why we are responsible/culpable for our choices and God is not arbitrary or limited in His impartial love (He does not save some and damn others that He could save if He wanted to). Contingency is no excuse for man misusing his freedom. It was not God's intention or desire for man to rebel or reject the plan of redemption individually.

godrulz,
I agree: even believers can choose to walk away from their faith ... but, it can't be as easy as some make it sound. Salvation is based on the performance of Christ not the performance of believers. Growing up in a kind of ‘performance oriented’ church, I lived in fear that my salvation was questionable every time I ‘sinned’. I would have settled for weekend security back then. Not now. I am secure in the knowledge that ‘in Christ’ I’m sealed. Look forward to hearing Clete’s answer.​

 

[sentientsynth]

And don't forget....

Unbelievers CANNOT choose to go to heaven in a way other than what God has determined in advance. I.e., A man cannot choose to go to heaven through atheism or by being a Wiccan.

They can still choose to be a Christian of their own free will, right?

 

[godrulz]

godrulz,
I agree: even believers can choose to walk away from their faith ... but, it can't be as easy as some make it sound. Salvation is based on the performance of Christ not the performance of believers. Growing up in a kind of ‘performance oriented’ church, I lived in fear that my salvation was questionable every time I ‘sinned’. I would have settled for weekend security back then. Not now. I am secure in the knowledge that ‘in Christ’ I’m sealed. Look forward to hearing Clete’s answer.​

Believers are secure in Christ. A lapse into sin affects intimacy but does not sever the relationship. Only apostasy and a return to a state of persistent unbelief and rejection of the person and work of Christ will sever the relationship (Heb. 6:4-6).

 

[godrulz]

They can still choose to be a Christian of their own free will, right?

Not without the drawing, influence, wooing, conviction, convincing of the Holy Spirit. He alone provides salvation and regeneration, but we must appropriate it through repentant faith. A condition is not the grounds nor is it a work or self-righteousness.