ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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sentientsynth
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Bob Hill said:
What does this statement of yours imply, Bob?
Originally posted by Bob Hill
Good for Boice. He departed from his Calvinistic heritage because, he said, “it is not what God reveals about himself in the Scriptures”.
Good for Boice. He departed from his Calvinistic heritage because, he said, “it is not what God reveals about himself in the Scriptures”.
It implies that "Calvinistic heritage", i.e. Augustine and Calvin, is cut-and-pasted Greek philosophy, and that Boice's view of immutability is a departure from Augustine and Calvin. But it isn't. Therefore Boice's writing doesn't represent a departure from "his Calvinistic heritage."
How? Please be specific.Bob Hill said:
About his conversion to Open Theism, Bob Hill says this:
Strange. Almost as if you came to the Bible with a preconceived theology. :think:
sentientsynth
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godrulz, I've experienced that no less that three times. Two of those times were wrong. I'm still holding out on the last one though. :dizzy:
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
sentientsynth
I was just pleased that Boice couldn’t even buy into his own Calvinism in that one post he made. But it was only for a moment, unfortunately.
He gave a very good statement that disagreed with his own Calvinistic thinking, but it was just an aberration.
You missed the point. He was right in one of his statements, but wasn’t consistent. Too bad.
I will not repeat it.
Read the whole post. I think you are smart enough to understand.
I had no clue of what I now believe, so I did not have a preconceived theology in that situation.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
I was just pleased that Boice couldn’t even buy into his own Calvinism in that one post he made. But it was only for a moment, unfortunately.
He gave a very good statement that disagreed with his own Calvinistic thinking, but it was just an aberration.
You missed the point. He was right in one of his statements, but wasn’t consistent. Too bad.
I will not repeat it.
Read the whole post. I think you are smart enough to understand.
I had no clue of what I now believe, so I did not have a preconceived theology in that situation.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
I do believe that God is able to change His mind. As you all know, the broad definition of this belief is “Open Theism”, but sometimes a broad paintbrush includes too much. Please visit my website and go to the Forums at biblicalanswers.com, and you will get a better idea of what I believe.
:devil: :box: :jazz: and now the :first:
The open view of God is growing in America, but Calvinists do not like it one bit. The most important thing that I would advise everyone is: be sure you are focusing on God and striving to love Him. Then, allow Him to fill you with His fruit of the Spirit so you will continue in your love for your fellow Christians who may disagree with you.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
:devil: :box: :jazz: and now the :first:
The open view of God is growing in America, but Calvinists do not like it one bit. The most important thing that I would advise everyone is: be sure you are focusing on God and striving to love Him. Then, allow Him to fill you with His fruit of the Spirit so you will continue in your love for your fellow Christians who may disagree with you.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
sentientsynth
New member
Please demonstrate how Boice’s statement is a disagreement “with his own Calvinistic thinking.”Bob Hill said:
I said:
It implies that "Calvinistic heritage", i.e. Augustine and Calvin, is cut-and-pasted Greek philosophy, and that Boice's view of immutability is a departure from Augustine and Calvin. But it isn't. Therefore Boice's writing doesn't represent a departure from "his Calvinistic heritage."
Bob Hill replies:
Alleged inconsistency doesn’t imply a break from “his Calvinistic herititage.” It’s two separate issues, Bob.Bob Hill said:
About Boice’s statements, Bob Hill said:
This seems to contradict what he wrote in the paragraph just above this statement.
I asked:
How? Please be specific.
To which Bob replied:
I want to see it through your eyes, Bob. So please. Walk me through your line of thinking. Why are those two paragraphs you quoted from Boice contradictory? I want to know exactly why you’re saying this. Remember to please be specific.Bob Hill said:
About Bob Hill’s “conversion” to Open Theism, I said this:
Strange. Almost as if you came to the Bible with a preconceived theology.
To which Bob replied:
Bob Hill said:
Of course you did. You read a book, got your theology, and then went back to scripture to read it in light of your new-found perspective. You merely hopped from one theology to another, all because you bought a book. Remember saying this…
I read that section and found another book where Biederwolf said we had free will. This book was W. W. Kinsley’s “Science and Prayer.” I lived in California at that time and scoured all of the used books in those bookstores until I found it. It was published in 1893. After reading it, I was convinced. I studied the Bible and things just seemed to fall into place.
That, sir, is what our friend godrulz calls “extrapolation to a preconceived theology.” You merely scrapped one plausibility structure for another. And that not because you were convinced by scripture, but because you read some book. That’s a poor example to set, Bob.
A person is either a slave to sin or a slave to God. The slave cannot free himself from his master. So says our dear Apostle Paul.Bob Hill said:
Many things are growing in America, Bob. And typically when the world is going after something, that’s a good sign we should steer way clear of it.Bob Hill said:
SS
lee_merrill
New member
Mr. Synth can be quite cogent...
Blessings,
Lee
Blessings,
Lee
Bob Hill said:
There seems to be a pseudo-political agenda in religious circles that assumes Reformed/Calvinism theology is the only biblical option, so any threat to its finances, leaders, institutions is vigorously attacked (I hope this is not too much of a conspiracy theory, but there is a control/political agenda to make Reformed theology the only legitimate kid on the block).
lee_merrill
New member
Well, I ascribe this to his arguments, then! For I do find them persuasive...godrulz said:
Blessings,
Lee
lee_merrill
New member
But of course! Yet it would be difficult to find an argument persuasive, and then somehow not agree with it...godrulz said:
Blessings,
Lee
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Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Lee,
I am a person who has believed the Open View of God for about 45 years.
Here’s why.
It develops an honest responsible character.
It shows that God gave real choice to man, rather than making man a semi robot.
It produces moral responsibility.
It shows that man has a great amount of freedom and a great amount of contingency exists.
The application of these laws to certain passages clears up many problems.
The future actions of men under the law of freedom are unknowable. There are some things God does not know before hand. For instance, it says in Gen 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.
Even when God thinks or says something will happen, it may not happen under the law of freedom. “God said ‘She will return to Me!’ But she did not return”.
Jer 3:7,8 Then the LORD said to me in the days of Josiah the king, “Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. 7 “And I thought, ‘After she has done all these things, she will return to Me’; but she did not return.
Bob Hill
I am a person who has believed the Open View of God for about 45 years.
Here’s why.
It develops an honest responsible character.
It shows that God gave real choice to man, rather than making man a semi robot.
It produces moral responsibility.
It shows that man has a great amount of freedom and a great amount of contingency exists.
The application of these laws to certain passages clears up many problems.
The future actions of men under the law of freedom are unknowable. There are some things God does not know before hand. For instance, it says in Gen 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.
Even when God thinks or says something will happen, it may not happen under the law of freedom. “God said ‘She will return to Me!’ But she did not return”.
Jer 3:7,8 Then the LORD said to me in the days of Josiah the king, “Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. 7 “And I thought, ‘After she has done all these things, she will return to Me’; but she did not return.
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Lee,
Here are some more reasons.
God is limited in His promises to bless when man does not do as He commands. Psa 78:41 Yes, again and again they tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
Even promises that appear to be unconditional may be broken.
Josh 3:9,10 So Joshua said to the children of Israel, “Come here, and hear the words of the LORD your God.” 10 And Joshua said, “By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites.
Josh 15:63 As for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem to this day.
Josh 16:10 And they did not drive out the Canaanites who dwelt in Gezer; but the Canaanites dwell among the Ephraimites to this day and have become forced laborers.
Judges 2:1-3 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 ‘And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 “Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’ ”
Judges 2:20-3:5 Then the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, “Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not heeded My voice, 21 “I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, 22 “so that through them I may test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the LORD, to walk in them as their fathers kept them, or not.” 23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out immediately; nor did He deliver them into the hand of Joshua. Chapter 3:1 Now these are the nations which the LORD left, that He might test Israel by them, that is, all who had not known any of the wars in Canaan 2 (this was only so that the generations of the children of Israel might be taught to know war, at least those who had not formerly known it), 3 namely, five lords of the Philistines, all the Canaanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites who dwelt in Mount Lebanon, from Mount Baal Hermon to the entrance of Hamath. 4 And they were left, that He might test Israel by them, to know whether they would obey the commandments of the LORD, which He had commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses. 5 Thus the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Here are some more reasons.
God is limited in His promises to bless when man does not do as He commands. Psa 78:41 Yes, again and again they tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
Even promises that appear to be unconditional may be broken.
Josh 3:9,10 So Joshua said to the children of Israel, “Come here, and hear the words of the LORD your God.” 10 And Joshua said, “By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites.
Josh 15:63 As for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem to this day.
Josh 16:10 And they did not drive out the Canaanites who dwelt in Gezer; but the Canaanites dwell among the Ephraimites to this day and have become forced laborers.
Judges 2:1-3 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 ‘And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 “Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’ ”
Judges 2:20-3:5 Then the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, “Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not heeded My voice, 21 “I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, 22 “so that through them I may test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the LORD, to walk in them as their fathers kept them, or not.” 23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out immediately; nor did He deliver them into the hand of Joshua. Chapter 3:1 Now these are the nations which the LORD left, that He might test Israel by them, that is, all who had not known any of the wars in Canaan 2 (this was only so that the generations of the children of Israel might be taught to know war, at least those who had not formerly known it), 3 namely, five lords of the Philistines, all the Canaanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites who dwelt in Mount Lebanon, from Mount Baal Hermon to the entrance of Hamath. 4 And they were left, that He might test Israel by them, to know whether they would obey the commandments of the LORD, which He had commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses. 5 Thus the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
God wanted to destroy Israel because they “turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them.” Ex 32:7-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. 8 “They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’ ” 9 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 “Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.”
But Moses pleaded with the Lord, and God repented “from the harm which He said He would do to His people.”
11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 “Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 “Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’ ” 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
But Moses pleaded with the Lord, and God repented “from the harm which He said He would do to His people.”
11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 “Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 “Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’ ” 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
God repented in many other situations. Here are some examples:; Deu 9:8-25; 1 Sa 15:11,35; 2 Sam 24:16; 1 Chr 21:15; Jer 4:28; 15:6; 20:16; 26:19; Joel 2:13; Jon 3:10; Zec 8:14; Mal 3:6.
Isaiah prophesied by the word of the Lord to Hezekiah that he would die soon (2 Ki 20:1-5), but he didn’t.
Under some circumstances, God said He would not repent. The context of these passages show why (Num 23:19; 1 Sa 15:29; Psa 110:4).
When God foreknows, declares, or prophesies an event as being sure, to make sure, He makes it happen. Does foreknowledge cause things to happen (Isa 14:24; 44:28; 46:9-11; Rom 8:29)?
God “works all things according to the counsel of His will” (Eph 1:11). Does this mean all things, even outside of this context? 1 Ti 2:4; 1 Th 4:3; 5:18
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Isaiah prophesied by the word of the Lord to Hezekiah that he would die soon (2 Ki 20:1-5), but he didn’t.
Under some circumstances, God said He would not repent. The context of these passages show why (Num 23:19; 1 Sa 15:29; Psa 110:4).
When God foreknows, declares, or prophesies an event as being sure, to make sure, He makes it happen. Does foreknowledge cause things to happen (Isa 14:24; 44:28; 46:9-11; Rom 8:29)?
God “works all things according to the counsel of His will” (Eph 1:11). Does this mean all things, even outside of this context? 1 Ti 2:4; 1 Th 4:3; 5:18
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Daniel50
New member
Bob Hill said:
Between permissive and perfect will of God.
1.Permissive will of God.
Gn 22:2 Then He said, "Take now your son, your only [son] Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."
1.Perfect will of God.
Gn 22: 11 But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" So he said, "Here I am."
12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only [son], from Me."
13 Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind [him was] a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son.
We christians always between permissive and perfect willof God.
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