ARCHIVE: Lying is never righteous!

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Jaltus
Yes, it is always wrong to deny Christ. To do so is to deny salvation.

There you have it folks a perfect example of twisted theology!

Jaltus is actually asserting that if an EVIL person came to your door and said....

"I am here to murder Christians, are you and your family Christians?"

Jaltus thinks that if you lied to save your kids lives you would all the sudden be no longer saved!

Jaltus I am not sure where you got your sick and perverted theology but I would run right back and get a refund.

You continue....

What kind of witness to the person killing you is it? A bad one.

Uhg....WHO CARES!!!!!!!!! I am not gonna let some whacko murder my kids just so I can witness to a murderer at my door!

Let me ask you a little follow-up question....
Only because my curiosity is killing me...

Let's say we have a wicked murderer at the door who claims he wants to murder Christians, therefore he wants to know if you and your family are Christians.

Let's assume further that we take your tact and tell him out of courtesy "yep were all Christians in here"!

The murderer then enters the house with force. The murderer aims his shotgun at the youngest of your children and is ready to begin the martyrdom.

At this point you have the physical ability to grab your shotgun and blow his head off to save your family.

Do you do it? Or do you let him execute you and your family?

 

[Jaltus]

Dee Dee,

Thank you for your consideration. That objection is only for you as Open Theists can easily deny providential control (although they must admit that they cannot hold to Romans 8:28 then as well, but that is a different thing).

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Scripture interprets scripture, not a single scripture by itself is forever determinative.

Exactly, and as argued ad nausueam (and I will defeat your it is okay to deceive with truth nonsense) Scripture gives us two examples of righteous lies as well as the numerous irrefutable arguments raised by Knight and Sheepdog on the issue.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Jaltus
although they must admit that they cannot hold to Romans 8:28 then as well, but that is a different thing

Jaltus that in and of itself is a lie and you know it! Not a righteous lie either!

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

And Jaltus, Knight just made some excellent points as well. I will give this particular issue further consideration. The fact that I may do so does not at all, though you may prematurely presume, do any damage whatsoever to my firm conviction in the moral hiercharchy of Biblical ethics... all it would mean is that I may be considering moving that one particular issue to the complete top of the hierarchy to be operational despite any other conceived situations.

 

[Hank]

And I haven't forgotten about you Hank, it is just that Jaltus is feeling his oats more than usual, and this is a rare opportunity.

I’m a patient guy. Besides I’m enjoying this thread. Any time you guys start debating the Bible it just proves the old saying “you can prove anything with the Bible”. I love this straining the gnat and swallowing the camel game.

 

[Hank]

Yeah, Hank, she is too busy not dealing with my arguments to not deal with yours right now.

Now that was really funny. LOL

 

[Jaltus]

SD,

There is also no rebuke for her being a harlot, just as there is no commendation of her lying. You are arguing from silence, which is exactly what my point about harlotry was, an argument from silence.

"The Bible does not say she was wrong for lying." Well, it does not say she was right for lying either. It says she was right for having faith, that and nothing else.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Jaltus
LOL, Knight, you are such an ignorant person. You literally speak (or write, I guess) without knowing what you are talking about.

Please show how you are correct that Luke 12 is about witnessing and not about dneying Christ in front of people.

Which part of this is about witnessing again?

You can get a clear picture by reading the story from Matthew (which is what cirisme originally referenced)...

Matthew 10:1 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him

Matthew 10:7 “And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

Matthew 10:13 “If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 “And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.

Matthew 10:32 “ Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 “But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 10:40 “ He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

So this doesn't get lost in the shuffle....

So this doesn't get lost in the shuffle....

Jaltus.... Let me ask you a little follow-up question....
Only because my curiosity is killing me...

Let's say we have a wicked murderer at the door who claims he wants to murder Christians, therefore he wants to know if you and your family are Christians.

Let's assume further that we take your tact and tell him out of courtesy "yep were all Christians in here"!

The murderer then enters the house with force. The murderer aims his shotgun at the youngest of your children and is ready to begin the martyrdom.

At this point you have the physical ability to grab your shotgun and blow his head off to save your family.

Do you do it? Or do you let him execute you and your family?

 

[Jaltus]

Jaltus is actually asserting that if an EVIL person came to your door and said....

"I am here to murder Christians, are you and your family Christians?"

Jaltus thinks that if you lied to save your kids lives you would all the sudden be no longer saved!

I think that if you deny Christ, he will deny you. You know, just like scripture ACTUALLY SAYS, whereas you are pulling your hermeneutic out of "Biblez R Us" or something. Try actually dealing with the scripture previously mentioned. Your rhetoric is totally hollow without scriptural backing, as is your load of garbage about what Luke says.

Why is it that you did not respond to the post aimed at you?

I know, it is because I AM RIGHT AND YOU CANNOT ACTUALLY DEAL WTHI THE PASSAGE.

Admit it, Knight, that Luke 12 says nothing about witnessing. Your case is just smoke and mirrors with no scriptural support.

Jaltus I am not sure where you got your sick and perverted theology but I would run right back and get a refund.

Of course, my theology is biblical, no wonder you don't get it.

Uhg....WHO CARES!!!!!!!!! I am not gonna let some whacko murder my kids just so I can witness to a murderer at my door!

That's right, knight, it is more important that we lie to stay alive than we die for our witness. Tell me, when did you stop reading the Bible, after Genesis? you sure have not read Acts or any Pauline letters.

Let me ask you a little follow-up question....
Only because my curiosity is killing me...

Nice pun, that is pretty good. Was it intentional?

Let's say we have a wicked murderer at the door who claims he wants to murder Christians, therefore he wants to know if you and your family are Christians.

Let's assume further that we take your tact and tell him out of courtesy "yep were all Christians in here"!

First off, I'd just slam the door in his face. I said tell the truth, but I did not say answer every question, did I? As Cir said, silence is not lying.

The murderer then enters the house with force. The murderer aims his shotgun at the youngest of your children and is ready to begin the martyrdom.

At this point you have the physical ability to grab your shotgun and blow his head off to save your family.

Do you do it? Or do you let him execute you and your family?

Well, I'd grab the gun and call the police. I would not shoot him, for that is not the kind of person I am.

Are you ever going to deal with my real arguments, Knight, or can you only come up with lame hypothetical situations and not deal with theology and scripture at all?

I am really starting to wonder, you show an incredible propensity for dodging biblical questions.

 

[Jaltus]

Knight,

The original quote was by me on this post: 11-25-2002 04:41 PM

Nice try, but totally false.

 

[Jaltus]

SD,

Show me in the Bible where it says her faith caused her lie.

 

[Jaltus]

SD,

How about this:

Hebrews 11: 31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.


Her faith was in welcoming the spies, not lying. Sorry, you lose.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear Jaltus:

I have given your point more consideration (and I will continue to do so - am I clear, I am NOT talking about the lying issue for which you are dead wrong) - but thus far, I stand by my prior statement.

I think that you manipulated Romans 8:28 in this situation for it cuts you both ways. Of course God works everything for good, so He would work the denial for good as well. You are correct, if a person "denies" Christ, He will deny them... but you are assuming "denial" simply means mouthing certain words in one certain situation. It does not. For you are forgetting (and this goes back to our original point) such a denial would be a LIE. No one is truly denying Christ which is why this was worded in an emotionally manipulative way. The question should be worded more accurately, is it ever morally permissible to LIE AND SAY YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN?? It is a lie. The question then becomes the motivations and the circumstances as predicated upon the hierarchy of Biblical morals.

So, let me give you a hypothetical... I know these are not alwasy exactly fair, but they do draw out how willing you are willing to go for consistency. You are the only Christian, there is one mad gunman, and one hundred pagans. The gunman will kill all the pagans one by one if you do not deny you are Christian, but you get to live. Do you let the pagans die, and most likely go to hell?? Or do you lie?

As Knight has correctly stated we do not owe the truth to evil to further evil. Can God use it for good, sure. But so can He use our lie than for good. We must choose the greater good as we weigh our ethical dilemnas, and the scale is an absolute one... despite your and Hank's misdefintion of relativism.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Sounds like a lie to me. The lying goes with the hiding. It's all part of the righteous deception

This has been my point to Jaltus all along SD, that he has ignored by obfuscating by pointing out that Rahab is called Rahab the harlot.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Jaltus
Why is it that you did not respond to the post aimed at you?

I responded directly!!! Why lie and say I didn't?

You continue...

I know, it is because I AM RIGHT AND YOU CANNOT ACTUALLY DEAL WTHI THE PASSAGE.

Gee great retort, Jaltus is right because he says so. Very interesting strategy.

You continue...

Admit it, Knight, that Luke 12 says nothing about witnessing. Your case is just smoke and mirrors with no scriptural support.
Of course, my theology is biblical, no wonder you don't get it.

Did you read the account from Matthew?

You continue....

That's right, knight, it is more important that we lie to stay alive than we die for our witness. Tell me, when did you stop reading the Bible, after Genesis? you sure have not read Acts or any Pauline letters.

Jaltus it isn't just our life that is on the line in these examples, its the lives our children or other innocent people that are at stake. These are the overriding circumstances that make the lie the proper thing to do just as the Hebrew midwives lied to the Egyptian King.

You continue....

First off, I'd just slam the door in his face.

That wasn't an option.

You continue...

I said tell the truth, but I did not say answer every question, did I? As Cir said, silence is not lying.

Can you prove silence isn't lying? I think there are some pretty serious lies of omission that can be just as wrong as other types of lies. Furthermore what if your silence was the cause for the murderers heightened suspicion and his eventual murder of you and your family.

You continue....

Well, I'd grab the gun and call the police. I would not shoot him, for that is not the kind of person I am.

If you don't shoot him.... he is gonna shoot you and your kids! It isn't HIS gun you grabbed it was YOUR shotgun!!!

You continue...

Are you ever going to deal with my real arguments, Knight, or can you only come up with lame hypothetical situations and not deal with theology and scripture at all?

I have dealt with your arguments in every detail, your claiming I haven't is a bald faced lie.

So....
Do you let the murderer murder your kids or do you shoot? Shooting the criminal is your only option to save your children and yourself, do you shoot?

 

[Jaltus]

Knight,

AGAIN, I quoted Luke 12, not Matthew. Stop LYING yourself.

It was a total and complete untruth that Cirisme quoted Matthew, when clearly I went first and mentioned Luke first. Cirisme NEVER mentioned Matthew.

Nice try to change the issue, Knight, but it does not work.

And Knight, I would never have you scenario happen. My options would never be that limited, and I would never own a shotgun, so in all cases your scenario is wrong.

 

[Jaltus]

SD and Dee Dee,

I will point out again, since you obviously do not get it, that Rahab is commended for her faith.

She is not commended for her lie.

Her lie did happen. So did her faith in hiding the spies in the first place.

Just because she is not condemned for her lie does not mean that she was right in lying.

You are arguing from silence. There is no passage of scripture that states that her lying was a good thing. None.

Satan also lies in scripture. It is not said that what he did was wrong. Does that make it right? Just because something is not specifically condemned by God and things work out well does not mean that this is the paradigm for our lives to follow.

You are trying to tell me that it is okay to lie because Rahab and some Egyptian unbelievers lied. When are you going to point to a Christian who lied? When are you going to point to someone of the covenant community who lied?

When are you going to point to someone being commended for a "righteous untruth?"

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Jaltus
Knight,

AGAIN, I quoted Luke 12, not Matthew. Stop LYING yourself.

It's the same account!!!! Matthew just has more details (on this topic).

You continue....

It was a total and complete untruth that Cirisme quoted Matthew, when clearly I went first and mentioned Luke first. Cirisme NEVER mentioned Matthew.

Hmmmm... well I guess I didn't read...

Originally posted by cirisme
You people are all insane.

But so am I, so I love you all.

Let me start out by asking this, if you were in a situation where you had to choose between denying Jesus and living, or not denying Jesus and dying(sp?), which would you choose?

But, before you answer, read this:

But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. -Matthew 10:33

So we may boldly say: "The LORD is my helper; I will not fear. What can man do to me?" -Hebrews 13:6

Answer this, and I'll establish relevance.

That's what I have been responding to.

You continue...

Nice try to change the issue, Knight, but it does not work.

And Knight, I would never have you scenario happen. My options would never be that limited, and I would never own a shotgun, so in all cases your scenario is wrong.

Afraid to answer? I understand why.

Do you think killing in self defense is wrong?