Lighthouse said:Raise your hand if you've ever met the mark.
My in-law is Mark G. :wave:
Lighthouse said:Raise your hand if you've ever met the mark.
Are you saying that even Christians have not the requirement of the Law fulfilled... because only Christ does? It's a trick question. I'm giving you a hint. The answer is in Romans. And elsewhere. And Matthew. Christ indeed fulfilled all righteousness. But, back to Romans... what of those who walk according to the flesh?Lighthouse said:Christ was the end of the law for righteousness, and we, as members of the Body of Christ, are not under the law, period. And not being under the law, we cannot transgress it. Christ already met the requirement, because we could not. It has been met, and therefore does not need to be met anymore.
Be embarrassed for yourself, not for me. I guess God is absorb because I believe God and I am as He is in this world. Now, today. If you are not as God is you are not His child. I am righteous because God is righteous. I am not a sinner because God is not a sinner. You think this was accomplished by me? You got to be kidding. I am not of the flesh. I am of the Spirit. The flesh died and my life is in Christ. I cannot sin because I say so but because God said so.Poly said:e4e, you're making a fool of yourself.
I'm embarrassed for you for being unwilling to talk about this reasonably and because much of the time you seem unable to express a clear thought while insulting those who are trying to be reasonable, going to great lengths to be very clear in their responses.
I pray you reconsider not only this absurd position you're taking on this but also what it means for brethren to come and reason together.
Romans 7:15 *For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.Daniel50 said:"Oh, what a wretched man I am! Who will free me
from this body that is dominated by sin?" Rom. 7:24
If a person were to tell me he did not love sin in his carnal
mind, I would say with all mildness, "You do not speak the
truth!" If your carnal mind does not love sin . . .
Why do you think of it?
Why do you secretly indulge it in your imagination?
Why do you play with it?
Why do you seek to extract a devilish sweetness out of it?
O, what a mercy it would be, if there were not this
dreadful love of sin in our heart! This is the struggle
--that there should be this traitor in the camp; that
our carnal mind should be so devilish as to love that
which made the blessed Jesus die; as to love that
which crucified the Lord of glory, and to love it with
a vehement love!
"Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord!"
Romans 7:25
elected4ever said:All who say they are sinners. God's children cannot sin so they are not sinners. Only sinners sin. So if you sin you are not of God. That simple. I am not the one who makes the choice for anyone to retain their sin. A person makes that choice for themselves. If you are a sinner I am just agreeing with you.
Why had you rather believe the worst about yourself instead of what God says about you? The scripture is quit clear. You cannot clam to be a sinner, which is the lie, and be a child of God. You are in the world, not of it. You have been made a new creature and you don't believe it. The old has pasted away and all has become new and you don't believe it. You had rather believe the lie that you are a sinner. You WERE a sinner. true enough but you are not what you were. You are what God made you to be in Christ Jesus. I only agree with your insistence to be a sinner when you are not to get you to see the absurdity of your position. If you wont to be a sinner then be one but don't clam what is not yours. If you are a sinner you need to be saved and if you trust in Christ for your salvation then clam the things in Christ and leave your sin behind.Dave Miller said:Then no one is saved. Thank God for Christ, through whom my sins are constantly
being healed and cleansed.
Sozophrenia is rampant...
elected4ever said:All who say they are sinners.
God's children cannot sin so they are not sinners.
Only sinners sin. So if you sin you are not of God.
That simple. I am not the one who makes the choice for anyone to retain their sin.
A person makes that choice for themselves. If you are a sinner I am just agreeing with you.
I gather you are a Christ follower, right? Then answer this question.Nineveh said:Not one Christ follower on this thread has claimed to be a sinner. There is a difference between being an unrepentant sinner and a Christ follower who grieves the Spirit by committing a sin.
Half right, we aren't sinners. We now have Christ's righteousness, not our own.
So to answer the question, only you, Sozo and Lighthouse are Christians. Mainly because you refuse to call a sin a sin but instead want to call it by another name.
No one has argued Christ followeres retain their sin. That's the thing about Grace and forgiveness. There is now no condemnation for those in Christ.
Labeling a Christ follower a sinner is either not understanding what has been said already on this thread or being willfully ignorant
elected4ever said:I gather you are a Christ follower, right? Then answer this question.
Have you, since coming to Christ, committed a sin?
I don't need to no what sin but just a sin. If you clam that you have then the following is true. it does not matter how big of how small. Christ will have to be crucified a second time to forgive you of your new sin.
That being the case,....
elected4ever said:Why had you rather believe the worst about yourself instead of what God says about you? The scripture is quit clear. You cannot clam to be a sinner, which is the lie, and be a child of God. You are in the world, not of it. You have been made a new creature and you don't believe it. The old has pasted away and all has become new and you don't believe it. You had rather believe the lie that you are a sinner. You WERE a sinner. true enough but you are not what you were. You are what God made you to be in Christ Jesus. I only agree with your insistence to be a sinner when you are not to get you to see the absurdity of your position. If you wont to be a sinner then be one but don't clam what is not yours. If you are a sinner you need to be saved and if you trust in Christ for your salvation then clam the things in Christ and leave your sin behind.
elohiym said:Dare I jump in? :think:
elected4ever said:Why had you rather believe the worst about yourself instead of what God says about you? The scripture is quit clear. You cannot clam to be a sinner, which is the lie, and be a child of God. You are in the world, not of it. You have been made a new creature and you don't believe it. The old has pasted away and all has become new and you don't believe it. You had rather believe the lie that you are a sinner. You WERE a sinner. true enough but you are not what you were. You are what God made you to be in Christ Jesus. I only agree with your insistence to be a sinner when you are not to get you to see the absurdity of your position. If you wont to be a sinner then be one but don't clam what is not yours. If you are a sinner you need to be saved and if you trust in Christ for your salvation then clam the things in Christ and leave your sin behind.
Dave,Dave Miller said:I am perfected through Christ, I am not
perfect.
That is true if it were not for the fact that you are dead in the flesh today. Your flesh is not born of God and since it is dead it is no loner subject to that for which it has already been executed. Flesh is that life that you received from your earthly parents. It does not refer to your body but the life in the body. The life in the body is "sold" to sin and that is all it can do. To expect any thing else is unrealistic. Now that we see that all men are sinners by nature the only remedy is that the flesh die. When did the flesh die? The moment that the commandment came. All men abide in death and not life. If you live by the flesh you are dead. The same thing happened to us as happened to Adam. We died.elohiym said:I just read the last page of this debate. It's the same old argument...
On one side we have those who claim that believers still do things like murder and commit adultery, but because they claim to identify with Christ, those acts do not make them sinners, nor are they sins. This appears to be a case of not wanting to call sin what it is: sin.
Here you make a gross error. God does not grant license to do evil. That is a blatantly false accusation. Whether we like it or not the flesh life that we received from our parents still exist with in us and we are strapped with it until our bodies die. I am sure that this is the sin that most refer too when they say that Christians sin. The problem with that thinking is that it is no longer us that sins. Paul says, "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." This sin is not an act but a condition. A condition in which the life that we received from our earthly parents exist. That life is no longer our life and i do not clam any responsibility for what it does. It is no longer mine.On the other side we have those who claim that believers still sin from time to time, but they are not sinners as a result, nor is there any condemnation because they are in Christ. This appears to be a case of believing they have a license to sin, though I can see that they do not think they have a license to sin, because they don't think they have a right to sin and should stop.
I can accept thatLet's just use one sin as an example. Murder. If a person claims to be a believer, yet murders someone, he is not in reality a believer because murder is a sin and a murderer is condemned without exception. Repentance involves turning from being a murderer (the old man) and being reborn as someone that no longer murders (new creation in Christ). This is easily proved by the verse:
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
Therefore, it is evident that 1) a person having eternal life (believer) cannot be a murderer, and 2) a person is a murderer and is condemned if they murder, even if they call themselves a believer.
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 1 John 2:9Rebirth entails a new heart through the renewing of the holy spirit. God write his law in your heart (love), and you become as a little child. This is experiencial, not intellectual. One does not commit murder because they love their brother, not because they read a law that states, "thou shalt not murder." Once having undergone the rebirth, you are new creature (saint). The old (sinner) has passed away.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1 John 3:7
So one side we have those who claim unrighteousness is no longer unrighteousness because they are in Christ,
I have reconsidered it and have determined that you misapply scripture so you can look good in your own eyes and in the eyes of others. There is no occasion to stumble in the life of a believer. That has been removed from us.Know this:He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 1 John 2:10No occassion to stumble, means NO OCCASSION TO STUMBLE, or the word of God is lie. Therefore, if you find that you are still stumbling, be willing to reconsider what you have believed.
Did you miss that I was describing what I considered error, not saying anyone has a license to sin? It is evident that some are arguing a position that can be contrued as a license to sin, and I don't agree with that postion. You are claiming I am making an error by pointing out an error.elected4ever said:Here you make a gross error. God does not grant license to do evil. That is a blatantly false accusation.
But you don't accept that, because if you did then you would have agreed with my entire post, and not made the outrageous statements you have. And if you truly accept that, then you agree with the only argument I made in my post. I think you have seriously misread what I wrote, which you have done before. Big surprise.elected4ever said:I can accept that
It boggles my mind how you came to that conclusion from what I posted. Think what you like.elected4ever said:I have reconsidered it and have determined that you misapply scripture so you can look good in your own eyes and in the eyes of others.
Yes, I know. That was my argument. I guess you missed that, too.elected4ever said:There is no occasion to stumble in the life of a believer. That has been removed from us.