elected4ever
New member
1 John 3:10 *In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, .
Is this strait forward enough
Is this strait forward enough
ARCHIVE: Free From Sin - 1 John
- Thread starter Sozo
- Start date
elected4ever
New member
How can the righteous sin? Do the righteous stand in opposition to God?lollu said:
elected4ever
New member
Yeskoban said:
elected4ever
New member
Can a man fly. Sinning is not a choice that a child of God can make.koban said:
Isaiah's prophecy of Jesus (in part):
Isaiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
Isaiah 53:11 "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."
Jesus states The Law:
Matthew 22:36-40 "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, [jesus]Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.[/jesus]"
John differentiates between the children of God and the children of Satan:
1John 3:1-10 (open your Bibles and read) and,
1John 3:11-12 "For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."
John says that believers (sons of God) cannot sin because Christ abides in them. A believer will act in righteousness. Unbelievers (children of Satan) sin because it is their nature to hate God and His believers. (Gospel of John 8:41-45.)
Sin, to a believer, is a denial of the Christ that abides within. Unrepentant sin would be the a gross insult to the Christ by denying His salvation and grace. A Christian can sin. A repentant Christian will not be held accountable. An unrepentant Christian will be held to judgement. Repentant Christians fall short, as Paul says, but never ever turn away from the face of God. Repentant Christians can sin, but they will not be known as sinners.
I realize that some believers will have a problem with this, but here goes anyway. The "sons of God" and "children of Satan" refer to actual real people and those are to whom John is referring.
Isaiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
Isaiah 53:11 "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."
Jesus states The Law:
Matthew 22:36-40 "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, [jesus]Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.[/jesus]"
John differentiates between the children of God and the children of Satan:
1John 3:1-10 (open your Bibles and read) and,
1John 3:11-12 "For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."
John says that believers (sons of God) cannot sin because Christ abides in them. A believer will act in righteousness. Unbelievers (children of Satan) sin because it is their nature to hate God and His believers. (Gospel of John 8:41-45.)
Sin, to a believer, is a denial of the Christ that abides within. Unrepentant sin would be the a gross insult to the Christ by denying His salvation and grace. A Christian can sin. A repentant Christian will not be held accountable. An unrepentant Christian will be held to judgement. Repentant Christians fall short, as Paul says, but never ever turn away from the face of God. Repentant Christians can sin, but they will not be known as sinners.
I realize that some believers will have a problem with this, but here goes anyway. The "sons of God" and "children of Satan" refer to actual real people and those are to whom John is referring.
Last edited:
elected4ever said:
You may call me ignorant of truth according to you, but that does not make me a liar (not lier). A liar would deliberately misrepresent the truth to deceive. I share what I believe is true to the best of my light and knowledge.
Habits and natures are formed through choices. Character cannot be divorced from choices. In any given circumstance, we can chose to do what is right or wrong. The Holy Spirit does reproduce the life and attitudes of Christ in us, the fruit of the Spirit. These are contrasted with the deeds of the flesh that are clearly volitional (fornication is an act, not a nature since Christian teens are also capable of premarital sex and even get pregnant despite attending youth group and knowing God).
Your analogy breaks down because nature or fruit trees operate under the law of cause and effect. Man is in the image of God, not a animate tree. Man is a moral being (technical term to distiguish us from rocks) with volitional choices that impact our growth (not all believers are equally mature or obedient...if it was all of God, there is no reason why we would not all be equally sanctified from day one of conversion). An apple tree is not accountable before a holy God, but men are. You are comparing apples with oranges (pun intended).
Note: Just because you are confused about categories (metaphysics/stuff vs morals/character) does not make you a 'pathetic liar'. It just makes you wrong in this area of your thinking. Perhaps you should show more grace and maturity if you have been a believer for 50 years?
elected4ever said:
According to you, righteousness has nothing to do with what we do (contrary to the Bible). Unbelievers do not habitually do righteous things. Believers normatively walk in the light and Spirit as obedient children. This does not preclude the possibility of an isolated lapse in one thought, motive, or deed (sin). Again, the Greek continuous, habitual, present tense cannot be divorced in our exegesis of your proof texts (also see the immediate and remote context that contradicts your conclusions).
elected4ever said:
There is a difference between the persistent sin of selfish, rebellious unbelief (unbelievers) and an isolated sin like lust that a believer struggles with while still ultimately loving God supremely (despite a remnant struggle). A believer who is tempted by a previous sin (personal flesh struggle) is not standing in opposition to God Himself like an unbeliever does. Your thinking is too narrow.
Poly
Blessed beyond measure
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
godrulz said:
Too bad e4e wasn't around at that time to set Paul straight. I'm thinking he would have said something like....
"Paul, don't mention to these people that God's grace shouldn't be a license to sin. Don't you know that we can't sin? So why encourage these people not to do what isn't possible for them in the first place? Silly Paul! You should have talked to Sozo before writing some of this stuff."
elected4ever said:
Your root problem is that you think sin is a substance, not a selfish, rebellious, lawless choice. If it is a substance, no one is accountable/responsible since they cannot help it. The NT exhorts believers to not sin precisely because some were sinning.
Adultery is a sin (Decalogue). God's moral laws are universal and unchanging because of His being and character. It does not become a 'mistake' after conversion (identical actions, thoughts, motives as an unbeliever or preconversion state). It is contrary to God's law and holiness. Can a Christian pastor have sex with his secretary? Sadly, more than one leader has done that (if not more than once...one of my pastor friends is in this boat despite years of fruitful ministry and love of God). Sinning is not a choice a child of God SHOULD make. This does not mean it is impossible to make. You just said we still have free will. We are free to not sin, but we are also free to sin. We are not robots just because we converted. Adultery is volitional, not caused by something other than our wills. Just because we are believers does not make us immune to sexual temptation or falling into it. Jesus was tempted, yet without sin. We are tempted, with or without sin, depending on how we respond to it (yield to Spirit or flesh with out wills). Having free moral agency is part of being in the image of God. Do not reduce this gift to a nature we have no control over.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
lollu said:
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
Notice the volitional obedience in the above verses. The majority of believers understood are freedom in Christ, but he still had to deal with some who used grace as license to sin (cf. Corinthian mess).
There is also a difference between the godless bondage and slavery of a life given over to sin, and a brief, isolated lapse into one sin while following Christ (it is dealt with by the person in response to the Spirit, unlike an unbeliever's persistence in it).
Practically, if a new Christian is tempted and gives in to an old sinful habit, do we just tell them that it is not really sin, is already forgiven, so keep feeding the flesh or not...whatever you prefer, since it is not really a sin and you have no responsibility anyway? This is not the biblical approach. Bad doctrine leads to bad practice.
There is also a difference between the godless bondage and slavery of a life given over to sin, and a brief, isolated lapse into one sin while following Christ (it is dealt with by the person in response to the Spirit, unlike an unbeliever's persistence in it).
Practically, if a new Christian is tempted and gives in to an old sinful habit, do we just tell them that it is not really sin, is already forgiven, so keep feeding the flesh or not...whatever you prefer, since it is not really a sin and you have no responsibility anyway? This is not the biblical approach. Bad doctrine leads to bad practice.
elected4ever
New member
You morons have not refuted one statement of the 10 I made.I already know you are in unbelief. Now show me where i have made an incorrect statement.. You have not done so . At least godrulz tried.
elected4ever
New member
reposted for your convenience
Fact #1 you were a sinner or you could not have been saved Only sinners need a savior
Fact #2 If you trusted Jesus as your savior, god placed his seed in you and you cannot sin.
Fact # 3 All sin has been condemned in the flesh.
Fact #4 When you were first judged a sinner you died. Your flesh was eternally separated from God.
Fact 5 When you were saved you were given life from the dead.
Fact 6 When you were saved you were given life from the dead.
Fact # 7 if you are saved you are not of the flesh.
Fact # 8 If you are saved you are of the spirit and not of the flesh.
Fact # 9 It is not you that sins but the sin that is condemned in the flesh sins. but that is not you if you are born of God.
Fact # 10 If you have not received the spirit of God you do not belong to Him.
Fact #1 you were a sinner or you could not have been saved Only sinners need a savior
Fact #2 If you trusted Jesus as your savior, god placed his seed in you and you cannot sin.
Fact # 3 All sin has been condemned in the flesh.
Fact #4 When you were first judged a sinner you died. Your flesh was eternally separated from God.
Fact 5 When you were saved you were given life from the dead.
Fact 6 When you were saved you were given life from the dead.
Fact # 7 if you are saved you are not of the flesh.
Fact # 8 If you are saved you are of the spirit and not of the flesh.
Fact # 9 It is not you that sins but the sin that is condemned in the flesh sins. but that is not you if you are born of God.
Fact # 10 If you have not received the spirit of God you do not belong to Him.
Spitfire
New member
elected4ever said:
Hui! Spiritual sins, sins of the diabolical self, are the worst! Unless you believe only the part of your soul that had no part in whatever pride, jealousy, malice or deceit you are guilty of will be admitted to Heaven (and I don't see how that would be possible,) none of this is tenable.
elected4ever
New member
I wrote that when I was tired and repeated 5& 6 So if you like I will make a new statement to replace FACT # 6. OTHERWISE I WILL SAY REFUTE ANY OF THE 9. COME ON SHOW ME WHERE ANY OF THESE STATEMENTS ARE FALSE.