Anyone Who Thinks Another Person Deserves To Be Raped Is A Knob

[ok doser]

This thread has degenerated into bickering and name calling.

to a large extent, yes


but there's still some good discussion going on


feel free to tackle one of my questions to kmo if you like, kat

 

[Arthur Brain]

To defraud another person is to stir up in them desires that cannot be righteously satisfied. A woman can defraud a man by the way that she dresses, talks, or acts. A man can defraud a woman by improper touching or by talking about a marital commitment that he is not able or intending to carry out.

Look dude, if an attractive woman walks into a bar wearing shorts and a tee shirt and you find her desirable then that's on you not her. She hasn't entered into some sort of unspoken contract or promised anything to you or anybody else in the place simply because of her dress. You're being ridiculous.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I'm betting many of these folks on here have no idea that promising what you don't plan on giving is WRONG. The lines between right and wrong are so blurred now, because humanism has made room for every man's opinion, that stripping is not even seen as WRONG. :nono:

Er, where did Foster's character promise anything exactly?

:liberals:

 

[ok doser]

Er, where did Foster's character promise anything exactly?

:liberals:

...

 

[Arthur Brain]

I rest my case.

What case? It's immoral to dress attractively now? To have a drink and a dance?

 

[glorydaz]

What case? It's immoral to dress attractively now? To have a drink and a dance?

It's always been immoral, and until recently everyone knew it. (the Jody Foster character - before the outrage reaches fever pitch)

 

[Eeset]

GD would defend David's rape of Bathsheba. :kookoo:

 

[ok doser]

GD would defend David's rape of Bathsheba. :kookoo:

:freak:

rape?

 

[glorydaz]

There's no point in making the same points again and again.

Then stop doing it....you need to give support for scripture, and you refuse to.

I wouldn't have gone into it at all except in response. Scolding? I'm simply taking a strong exception to your thinking on the matter.

Yes, you're outraged but you cannot show where I'm wrong scripturally.

You should stop trying to do that. I object to your notion as a Christian, not a humanist.

No, I shouldn't stop doing "that". You're giving us the perfect example of a humanists reasoning.

God doesn't stop us from sinning. It doesn't follow that He desires our sin. So allow in the sense you're using it can be misleading.

You need to stop doing that. I never once said God desires our sin. Allowing us to suffer consequences is a matter of justice.

Saying that God won't commit a rape or command one isn't a box, except in as much as recognizing what the Holy and Good are is a box. And it's your "all kinds of reasons" that begins to suggest a connection between God and sin that isn't acceptable or rationally defensible.

Have you ever read the OT? There is a huge connection between sin and it's consequences right here in this life....which is what you refuse to admit.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

He will, but often not in this life. And you should never assume that a rich man is righteous and the suffering are rebellious.

Always in this life, even when we don't recognize it. Once again your assumptions are off. I am more apt to assume the rich man is not righteous and suffering comes upon those God loves. God's ways are not man's ways....which is more proof you're a humanist.

Ultimately many will, though if you rely on the cross you won't, thank God.

Do you think our being conformed into the image of Christ is done without our suffering? Think again.

You can trust His house to be undivided, too. Evil will never enter into it as a means.

Read the OT....God has not changed.

I'm stopping right there, because that's the tragic confluence of your misapprehension on the point and it sums it better than I could else.

Your humanism is showing once again. I care more for my daughter's eternal life than I do her life here on this earth. If she was stripping and got raped, I'd thank the Lord that He allowed her to suffer for her behavior and would pray He would continue to lead her away from the path of destruction she was on.

Quote me assigning your motives. I think you mean well, but it's still horrible thinking.

No, it isn't. It's only horrible thinking in the eyes of some men.

What you're arguing is indefensible to a rationalist of any stripe. It's just wrong headed for the reasons given. So David will fail and Judas betray and Peter reject and Paul struggle against a thorn...and the cross is there to catch us when we fail.

The cross isn't there to catch us when we fall. It isn't there to excuse our bad behavior in this life granting us permission to continue to commit bad behavior. It's wrong headed for you to assume the cross is there to justify sin in this life. Your examples are nothing more than an attempt to pull a rabbit out of a hat. Surely you can do better than that, counselor.


Ask Paul if I'm wrong for asking the Lord to reward the slut for her bad behavior. Do you seriously think Paul is talking about damning Alexander to hell for doing him wrong?

2 Timothy 4:14
Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:​

Everyone who loves good desires the end of evil and its punishment. It's understandable. But I think the cross is a more mature focus of hope and I'd pray the wicked turn from evil and are saved, that none perish but that all have eternal life. I think I'm called to that hope, but in fairness, I have Christ as an example and the cross to contemplate and the psalmist didn't.

I pray the wicked turn from evil, too. But you're praying to the wind if you insist on tying God's hands by removing the very means He uses to turn people from evil.

You're wrong in saying the psalmist didn't have the cross to contemplate. Have you not read the psalmist's words? :shocked:

You are confused about eternal consequences and the consequences right here on earth. It's convenient for you, but it's only an excuse. You need to stop doing that.

 

[glorydaz]

GD would defend David's rape of Bathsheba. :kookoo:

:rotfl:

 

[ok doser]

What case? It's immoral to dress attractively now? To have a drink and a dance?

yes artie - it's immoral to bare your ankle - that's exactly what we've been saying all along


how clever of you to have finally noticed

 

[ok doser]

You're wrong in saying the psalmist didn't have the cross to contemplate. Have you not read the psalmist's words? :shocked:

apparently he's read them like an "antheist" :chuckle:

You are confused about eternal consequences and the consequences right here on earth. It's convenient for you, but it's only an excuse. You need to stop doing that.

elo's playing the same game wrt "grace" :idunno:

 

[glorydaz]

apparently he's read them like an "antheist" :chuckle:



elo's playing the same game wrt "grace" :idunno:

It's convenient to ignore the fact that we must suffer consequences in this life by claiming we're saved in the next. What's worse is failing to recognize that God's purposes are above and beyond man's natural reasoning and understanding. The sin of Joseph's brothers was used by God for a good purpose. Joseph recognized that and boldly stated as much. No one stood beside him and said, "How dare you subscribe such evil things to God....suggesting that He allowed such evil to come upon Joseph." And Joseph had no qualms about calling what the brothers had done "evil".

Gen. 50:16
And they sent a messenger unto Joseph, saying, Thy father did command before he died, saying,

Gen. 50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.

Gen. 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.

Gen. 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?

Gen. 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.​

 

[glorydaz]

For a moment I'll agree that someone who breaks into your home and tries to do harm to your family deserves to be shot. That scenario is not like the rape case. The deservedness of the robber getting shot would be based in your right to defend yourself and your family. If you attack someone then you may come away hurt or not come away at all. There is no comparable element in the dancer/rape scenario.

If you strip at a frat party then you may come away hurt or not come away at all. Perhaps there is a girlfriend or a wife who walks in and sees the stripper's actions as breaking into her relationship and doing it harm. She just might shoot her. Bad behavior is risky behavior. :chew:

 

[glorydaz]

The point isn't that all victims of rape are innocent, morally and legally. The point is that nothing they are doing at the time means they deserved to be raped. They are two separate issues.

Yes, and we deserve consequences for our bad behavior. We don't get to pick and choose which consequences are right and wrong, nor do we get to choose not to get any consequences. Bad behavior carries consequences....a wide variety of consequences.

Just think of all the consequences that can come upon a person for a LIE. I can think of hundreds depending on what the lie is and who you lie to. Some lies do great harm to others....they can even cost people their lives. Do we get to whine and say, "But that's not fair"? We can, but it would be pretty stupid.

 

[glorydaz]

Sowing and reaping has been brought up often. The point or implication appears to be that whatever someone reaps they deserve. I don't think that's the case. :idunno:

Why not?

 

[kmoney]

you don't think God allows the punishment of our iniquiites in this life, as spelled out in Isaiah?

Isaiah 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

That particular passage appears to be about the 'Day of the Lord', so I don't think it applies to what we're discussing.

However, let's say there's another passage that talks more generally about God punishing people for evil in this world. What does that mean? In any given instance how would you know if God's hand is in it? Are you going to assume it was? Or assume it wasn't?

A girl dances seductively at a party and is raped.
A girl dances seductively at a party and is not raped.

Did the first girl deserve it and the other didn't? Or did both deserve it but God let the 2nd girl off the hook? Is God picking and choosing who he allows to be raped?


Another passage that I'll mention is Luke 13.

Luk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


Jesus seems to say that the bad things that befall people aren't punishment for their sins.

 

[kmoney]

If you strip at a frat party then you may come away hurt or not come away at all. Perhaps there is a girlfriend or a wife who walks in and sees the stripper's actions as breaking into her relationship and doing it harm. She just might shoot her. Bad behavior is risky behavior. :chew:

Still not comparable. :nono:

 

[kmoney]

did they deserve what they received?

What did they receive?

 

[kmoney]

Why not?

Because I think deservedness carries a more direct connection between the act and the reward/punishment. Sowing and reaping is a general principle. Do you think that dancing at a party is sowing a rape seed?