An Alternative to Arminianism and Calvinism

[genuineoriginal]

1. Spiritual Empowerment . Contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of Christ, all of Adam's race came to existence into this world spiritually alive, that is, born with the capability to do spiritual acts, given the opportunity to do so. Each one is given faith, for without faith it is impossible to please God.

Mankind has had "Spiritual Empowerment" since the beginning.

Genesis 3:22 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:​

Genesis 4:7 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.​

2. Unconditional Election of Adam’s Race. By God’s grace given us in Christ before time began, God chose all of Adam’s race and predestined them for adoption as children by Jesus Christ. God foreknew that man will fall into sin, and He implemented the plan of redemption right after man first fell into sin: Instead of Adam dying, an animal died that day Adam sinned, foreshadowing the death on the cross of the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.

Salvation and the adoption is conditional, and happens after believing.

Ephesians 1:13-14 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

3. Perfect & Complete Redemption. On the cross, God fashioned all of Adam’s race into the body of His Son, creating a new man – Christ the Head, Adam’s race the Body. When the Head died, the Body died with Him, and Adam’s race was forgiven from all sins and reconciled to God. When the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive together with Him, born again into a living hope of life eternal. Attached to the Head, they all are heaven-bound UNLESS detached from the Body by Christ Himself.

Redemption is not salvation, as shown by the people redeemed from Egypt who did not make it to the land of promise.

Exodus 15:13 13 Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.​

Numbers 32:13 13 And the Lord'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the Lord, was consumed.​

4. Guidance of the Holy Spirit. Throughout the lifetime of an individual, the Holy Spirit guides and coaches him, being part of the body, to live in accordance with the will of the Head. Attached to the Head Who is his life and strength, he has His Power to do what He wants Him to do. A person is free to decide whether to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit or not. God through Christ will decide who followed the guidance of the Holy Spirit. They are the ones who in their lifetime persevered to overcome evil with good.

Guidance of the Holy Spirit is not a requirement for doing the will of God.
Seeking the Lord and following after righteousness can be done by anyone that chooses to do so.

Isaiah 51 1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the Lord: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.​

5. Repentance & Overcoming. The call to repent is a call to overcome evil with good. Only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life where names of all were written from the foundation of the world. When Christ comes again to reward every man according to what each has done, those whose names remained written in the book of life will inherit life eternal; all others will be made to suffer the wrath of God, and finally, thrown into the lake of fire.

Nobody is automatically written into the Book of Life.
Only those that fear the Lord and follow after righteousness are written in the Book of Life.

Malachi 3:16-18 16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.​

 

[Samie]

. . .
Now, will you answer my questions or not?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Hi Clete;

I want to remind you that you have not yet addressed post #21. You instead waved goodbye.

But I will answer all your questions and objections AGAINST my position spelled out in the OP. We will tackle each question or objection you have to its logical end, one at a time, so as not to clutter this thread with unresolved issues.

But since I simply base my position in the infallible word of God, the Holy Scriptures, don't get bothered if my responses will include verses that prove my point. Nor will I be bothered with your responses should they be DEVOID of Scriptures.

The only problem is who is the final arbiter. For me it should be the Bible. I hope you agree that the Bible must be the final arbiter, too, won't you, brother?

Now, spell out your first question or objection AGAINST the OP. Keep it brief and straight to the point.

 

[Samie]

. . .
Salvation and the adoption is conditional, and happens after believing.

Ephesians 1:13-14 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

. . .

While NOT saved, man is NOT in Christ, and therefore dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). Explain how a man while NOT in Christ and hence dead, is able to believe. Can you?

 

[genuineoriginal]

While NOT saved, man is NOT in Christ, and therefore dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). Explain how a man while NOT in Christ and hence dead, is able to believe. Can you?

You are mistaking our future condition without Christ (dead in the lake of fire) with our current condition (life in this world).

John 12:25 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.​

 

[Samie]

You are mistaking our future condition without Christ (dead in the lake of fire) with our current condition (life in this world).

John 12:25 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.​

In John 15:5, Jesus was speaking to His disciples, not to those headed for the lake of fire. If apart from Him, His disciples can do NOTHING, are we better off than His disciples, that apart from Christ, we can do SOMETHING? I don't think so, do you?

 

[fzappa13]

Kinda funny ... the grace only crew being out graced by Samie ... kinda.

 

[genuineoriginal]

In John 15:5, Jesus was speaking to His disciples, not to those headed for the lake of fire. If apart from Him, His disciples can do NOTHING, are we better off than His disciples, that apart from Christ, we can do SOMETHING? I don't think so, do you?

I think you just proved that you can be an idiot apart from Christ, which is something.

Here is another verse to think about.

Mark 9:23 23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.​

The ability to believe or disbelieve is given to all men, and is a fundamental part of the free will God gave to all men.

 

[Samie]

I think you just proved that you can be an idiot apart from Christ, which is something.

Funny thing is this idiot believes Christ's words that apart from Him, this idiot can do NOTHING, while the originally genuine geniuses are NOT able to but instead insist that apart from Christ, they can do SOMETHING. Wisdom of this world?

Here is another verse to think about.

Mark 9:23 23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.​

The ability to believe or disbelieve is given to all men, and is a fundamental part of the free will God gave to all men.

Are you then saying that God also gave the ability to believe to those yet apart from Christ? If Yes, then ponder this:

To believe is to exercise faith. Faith is fruit of the Spirit. Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, they cannot bear fruit, and so can't have faith. Are we now better off than the disciples we can bear fruit apart from Christ?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Funny thing is this idiot believes Christ's words that apart from Him, this idiot can do NOTHING, while the originally genuine geniuses are NOT able to but instead insist that apart from Christ, they can do SOMETHING. Wisdom of this world?

Yes, you are showing the wisdom of the world and not the wisdom of God.

Are you then saying that God also gave the ability to believe to those yet apart from Christ?

Yes.

If Yes, then ponder this:

To believe is to exercise faith. Faith is fruit of the Spirit. Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, they cannot bear fruit, and so can't have faith. Are we now better off than the disciples we can bear fruit apart from Christ?

I've heard something like that before.

Why are firetrucks red?
1 and 1 are 2
2 and 2 are 4
3 times 4 is 12
There are 12 inches in a foot
12 inches are in a ruler
A Czar is a ruler
A Czar is Russian
Russians are red
A firetruck is red because it is always rushing (Russian)​

Chaining together logical statements does not make the conclusion true.

So, lets go to the first occurrence of "believe" in the Bible, following the First Mention Principle.

Genesis 15:1-6 1 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. 2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. 4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.​

God rewarded Abram for believing.

Now contrast this to what happened with the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 9:23-25 23 Likewise when the Lord sent you from Kadeshbarnea, saying, Go up and possess the land which I have given you; then ye rebelled against the commandment of the Lord your God, and ye believed him not, nor hearkened to his voice. 24 Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you. 25 Thus I fell down before the Lord forty days and forty nights, as I fell down at the first; because the Lord had said he would destroy you.​

God was going to destroy the children of Israel for refusing to believe until the petition of Moses changed His mind.

According to you, the children of Israel could not rebel against God's commandment unless they were in Christ.
Your foolishness has blinded you to the truth.

 

[Ktoyou]

Thanks for the well-thought out yet unscriptural response.

Sorry but not to disappoint you, I simply base my position upon what the Bible plainly says. And you don't. You just said your words do not contradict what Jesus said but they do. And the wonderful thing about it is you don't care explaining, because you can't?

Jesus: "Apart from Me, you can co NOTHING."
Clete: Apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING - they can believe.

Now explain why you think your statement does not contradict Jesus' statement. That is, if you can.

It would be more honest of you to say, "I know the truth and no matter what you say, I am not going to lean anything new"

 

[Clete]

Hi Clete;

I want to remind you that you have not yet addressed post #21. You instead waved goodbye.

Permanently this time...


:wave2:

 

[Samie]

Permanently this time...


:wave2:

OK.

You are still welcome though should you change your mind again.

 

[Samie]

Yes, you are showing the wisdom of the world and not the wisdom of God.


Yes.


I've heard something like that before.

Why are firetrucks red?
1 and 1 are 2
2 and 2 are 4
3 times 4 is 12
There are 12 inches in a foot
12 inches are in a ruler
A Czar is a ruler
A Czar is Russian
Russians are red
A firetruck is red because it is always rushing (Russian)​

Chaining together logical statements does not make the conclusion true.

So, lets go to the first occurrence of "believe" in the Bible, following the First Mention Principle.

Genesis 15:1-6 1 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. 2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. 4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.​

God rewarded Abram for believing.

Now contrast this to what happened with the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 9:23-25 23 Likewise when the Lord sent you from Kadeshbarnea, saying, Go up and possess the land which I have given you; then ye rebelled against the commandment of the Lord your God, and ye believed him not, nor hearkened to his voice. 24 Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you. 25 Thus I fell down before the Lord forty days and forty nights, as I fell down at the first; because the Lord had said he would destroy you.​

God was going to destroy the children of Israel for refusing to believe until the petition of Moses changed His mind.

According to you, the children of Israel could not rebel against God's commandment unless they were in Christ.
Your foolishness has blinded you to the truth.

You strayed off topic.

Again, Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, they can do NOTHING. Are you better off than His disciples you can do SOMETHING apart from Him?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Again, Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, they can do NOTHING.

I see you are having a hard time understanding the words of Jesus in the context that He said them.

If you keep thinking Jesus meant that nobody could do a single thing without Him, then you are not abiding in Jesus.

John 15:6 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

 

[Samie]

I see you are having a hard time understanding the words of Jesus in the context that He said them.

If you keep thinking Jesus meant that nobody could do a single thing without Him, then you are not abiding in Jesus.

John 15:6 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

So for you, to believe Jesus' statement that apart from Him man can do NOTHING, is not abiding in Him.

Good theology. Carry on. That's genuinely original thought.

Biblical? I doubt. Because if it is, then it originated from the Author of Scriptures.

 

[genuineoriginal]

So for you, to believe Jesus' statement that apart from Him man can do NOTHING, is not abiding in Him.

The fact that you (Samie) believe that nobody can do anything without being in Jesus proves that you (Samie) are not abiding in Jesus.

If you were abiding in Jesus, you would not be trying to prevent unbelievers from believing.

 

[Samie]

You have a genuinely original theology, genuineoriginal.

I believe Christ's words that apart from Him, the disciples can do NOTHING, and that applies to me as well. You tell me that proves I don't abide in Christ.

You believe Christ's words that apart from Him, the disciples can do NOTHING, BUT it does NOT apply to you. So, you are better off than His disciples. You can do SOMETHING apart from Christ, while the disciples can NOT.

Wonderful theology.

 

[themuzicman]

I'm unclear as to what you mean by "Adam's race." Are there human beings not of "Adam's race"?

 

[Samie]

I'm unclear as to what you mean by "Adam's race." Are there human beings not of "Adam's race"?

None. But there are earth-dwellers who are offspring of evil angels marrying human beings. See Gen 6:2, 4. Their offspring are demons. They were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world (Rev 17:8). There is no plan of redemption for Satan and his host (Matt 25:41).

In the OT, the phrase "sons of God" refers to angels. see Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:4-7

 

[TulipBee]

Another god is not an alternative