ECT All Things Are Lawful For Me

[Jerry Shugart]

What. Don't. You. Get. About. Faith. Alone/Only. IS. DEAD. AND. CANNOT. Save. Anyone?

If that is true then why do we read this:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

You misunderstand what is written in the book of James because your interpretation of what is said in the second chapter contradicts Romans 1:16. when we look at James words in the first chapter he confirms that a person is born of God by the word of truth;

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).​

The words in the second chapter are taking about what one man know about another man's faith:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:17-18).​

Sir Robert Anderson writes, "Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life" [emphasis added] (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).

You want to debate me but you do not read what I am saying! I have already explained to you that CORNELIUS and his whole HOUSEHOLD were told by an ANGEL to ask for Peter because Cornelius and HIS WHOLE HOUSEHOLD were God fearing and RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE.

Was Cornelius saved before Peter preached to him?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But I'm not saved by my common sense. Are you?

Are we not to use our "reason" to determine what the Bible says (Acts 17:2)? And is not our reasoning power based on our common sense?

In fact, if the sense to be saved is so common, why is it that only a remnant will be saved in Rom 9:27?

The gospels comes in power and in the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5) and it is absolutely true. The reason why all do not believe is that they resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51).

The problem with your questions is that you are presuming to know by some nebulous assessment (you haven't told me how YOU know someone has true faith) what God says should be assessed by behavior.

What does that have to do with my questions:

Do you deny that the LORD knows whether or not someone has true faith?

Do you deny that he gives those with true faith eternal life?

Do you deny that the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish?​

Please answer those questions.

If God tells us to assess our faith by our behavior, that either means:

He assesses our faith by our behavior

That is not true because He knows our heart.

He does not assess our faith by our behavior, but He wants us to do so

I don't know which is correct, I'll admit! But in either case, we should assess our faith by our behavior, if He tells us to do so.

Our faith is the evidence of things not seen. A true believer has been given this evidence so he knows that he is saved. If you want to argue what you are saying then quote the verse to which you are referring.

 

[God's Truth]

If that is true then why do we read this:

What do you mean IF that was true?

It is the Word of God!

I am not adding or subtracting. I am not leaning to the left or to the right. I am quoting scripture that says faith alone is DEAD.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

How many times do you have to have it explained to you?

Faith alone is dead; AND, all the scriptures that tell us to have 'faith'---they do NOT nullify all the scriptures that say 'obey'.

We have to believe Jesus. What do we have to believe that Jesus says? We have to believe that we have to do what he says and he says more than just believe and he never says do not obey!

You misunderstand what is written in the book of James because your interpretation of what is said in the second chapter contradicts Romans 1:16. when we look at James words in the first chapter he confirms that a person is born of God by the word of truth;

YOU do not understand and YOUR beliefs contradict the truth.

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).​

The words in the second chapter are taking about what one man know about another man's faith:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:17-18).​

Sir Robert Anderson writes, "Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life" [emphasis added] (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).

Read and believe for yourself what the Bible says and do not let anyone talk you out of obeying God.

Was Cornelius saved before Peter preached to him?

BECAUSE Cornelius was a God fearing righteous man---an angel told him to send for Peter to hear the message that would save him and his whole household!

Even Cornelius had an angel come to him to tell him to send for Peter, and that is when he and his whole household received the Holy Spirit because they were God fearing and righteous people, for that is to whom the message is sent. See Acts 10:22; Acts 10:35 and Acts 13:26.

 

[Danoh]

Some people are simply unable to multi-task between ideas and or understandings that actually differ.

Unable to not only hold both differing ideas in mind at the same time, but also unable to discern their disability; such end up confused by both, and as a result end up appearing to have "changed" the subject, or whatever.

On the other side of this obvious comedy of errors is the other sides oft conclusion of "a conspiracy."

One said other side right off reads into a thing - that such an individual is simply up to no good.

In reality, such is often the concluded conspiracy of individuals just as clearly disabled in their own way, from seeing a thing for what it actually is, due to their having long ended up set in a black or white, never gray...extremist approach to things.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I am quoting scripture that says faith alone is DEAD.

So the "faith" found in the following verse is dead?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).

The only thing which a person has to do to be saved is to believe. Despite that fact you continue to insist that a person cannot be saved unless he believes and obeys!

Look at Romans 1:16 and tell me where you see the word "obey." It is not there. And since this verse contradicts your ideas you just refuse to believe what it says.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

In reality, such is often the concluded conspiracy of individuals just as clearly disabled in their own way, from seeing a thing for what it actually is, due to their having long ended up set in a black or white, never gray...extremist approach to things.

Are you saying that what is revealed in the Bible is not black and white but only gray?

 

[Danoh]

Again you want to change the subject. Earlier you said:



You refuse to believe what Paul said in the following passage where he says that a person receives the Spirit by faith, not as a result of obedience:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal.3:1-3).​

Paul says NOTHING about receiving the spirit as a resuly of one's obedience but you cling to the things which you say which are clearly untrue.

All you demonstrate is the fact that you only believe the things in the Bible that match your ideas and you have no use for any of the Scriptures which contradict your ideas.

Obviously, she does not see her contradiction - as obvious as it appears to be, to the other side.

In fact, within her view, she is not contradicting herself.

Within her view, she holds to a distinction between what she refers to as Jewish ceremonies as works, and non Jewish ceremonies as works.

She is still off, but that is her distinction; that is why her seeming contradiction between her posts.

Some have caught this, some have but forget, and some have yet to have caught this...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Obviously, she does not see her contradiction - as obvious as it appears to be, to the other side.

In fact, within her view, she is not contradicting herself.

She has no view because she is blind to the truth. Romans 1:16 makes it plain that faith and faith alone results in salvation. Just because she does not believe this does not mean that the truths found in the Bible are not black and white but only gray.

 

[Danoh]

She has no view because she is blind to the truth. Romans 1:16 makes it plain that faith and faith alone results in salvation. Just because she does not believe this does not mean that the truths found in the Bible are not black and white but only gray.

Blindness results in its' own view.

But a view it is.

That thing that differs within a phrase like "so focused on the one tree, one has failed to see the forest" and vice versa.

 

[Danoh]

By the way, I never said that truths in Scripture are not black or white, but gray.

 

[God's Truth]

So the "faith" found in the following verse is dead?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).

The only thing which a person has to do to be saved is to believe. Despite that fact you continue to insist that a person cannot be saved unless he believes and obeys!

Look at Romans 1:16 and tell me where you see the word "obey." It is not there. And since this verse contradicts your ideas you just refuse to believe what it says.

Romans 1:5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

The OBEDIENCE that comes from faith.

17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

WHO will live by faith? The RIGHTEOUS will live by faith.

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

The scripture says they KNEW God, but they were wicked.

32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Now to Romans 2.

2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism

Did you not read that and understand that Paul says plainly that you have to repent of your sins?

Do you not understand that Jesus dying for our sins is about the sins we REPENT of doing?

Do you not understand that we have to believe that Jesus forgives our sins and that he washes us clean?

Where do you ever get that our being told we have to believe means we do not have to do anything? Where do you ever get that dead faith is the most important faith ever known?

 

[God's Truth]

She has no view because she is blind to the truth. Romans 1:16 makes it plain that faith and faith alone results in salvation. Just because she does not believe this does not mean that the truths found in the Bible are not black and white but only gray.

You should have read the next scripture since you want to be a teacher.

17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

WHO will live by faith? The RIGHTEOUS will live by faith.

 

[God's Truth]

Paul is speaking to those who are standing before him, in case they who claim to have faith and who have not also REPENTED of their sins:

Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

Saying you believe and have faith will do NOTHING FOR YOU if you did not repent.

Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.

Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

 

[Danoh]

GT, you ought to open a buffet :chuckle:

 

[glorydaz]

GT, you ought to open a buffet :chuckle:

Right....she'd be serving pigs' feet and sows' ears claiming it was caviar and canapes.

 

[God's Truth]

You too are a match after all, no matter how much you hate each other.

 

[Danoh]

You too are a match after all, no matter how much you hate each other.

I neither hate her, nor you.

What's that word Archie Bunker refers to poor Edith by?

 

[Derf]

Are we not to use our "reason" to determine what the Bible says (Acts 17:2)? And is not our reasoning power based on our common sense?

Yes, that's why I wrote that whole thing that you mostly dismissed. Reason doesn't dismiss arguments, it responds to them. Reason doesn't just provide a yes or no answer to questions, it explains why. You ought to try it some time.

The gospels comes in power and in the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5) and it is absolutely true. The reason why all do not believe is that they resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51).

Some? apparently a majority are not using "common sense" in that case, which means the sense is not very common. Thus my comment. (It's kind of like having to explain a joke around here, don't you think? It loses its punch.)

What does that have to do with my questions:

See above.

Do you deny that the LORD knows whether or not someone has true faith?

Do you deny that he gives those with true faith eternal life?

Do you deny that the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish?​

Please answer those questions.

I don't deny any of those things. You seem to think "eternal life" is a package that is presented to people with no thought, but it is dependent on a belief in Jesus Christ, His death, and His acceptance of His Father's authority in His life. God did not like the idea of sinful (read: "disobedient") people having eternal life (Gen 3:22). Why do you think that is, Jerry? (Reason it out for me, please.)

That is not true because He knows our heart.

We've been through this before. Remember our Abraham discussion? You seem to want to put a different definition into the words of the bible so that they will fit your theology. I caution against that...strongly.

But this was for the sake of discussion--you got 2 essentially polar opposite choices, and you refused to choose either of them. Neither did you offer a third choice,as "reason" would dictate.

Our faith is the evidence of things not seen. A true believer has been given this evidence so he knows that he is saved. If you want to argue what you are saying then quote the verse to which you are referring.

I thought you were different Jerry. I thought you actually put thought into your posts, and would consider what people wrote. You're in robot mode now, apparently, where you just parrot back the same things over and over. That's not a discussion--that's a farce.

 

[God's Truth]

I neither hate her, nor you.

What's that word Archie Bunker refers to poor Edith by?

Your denial means nothing, as does your insults. You do not get to decide what hate and love is, only God can do that, and He did, and love is not what you do.

You are every bit the negative and foul things you say to others, all the demeaning judgments are exactly what you are.

Maybe if you would obey God you would understand that. Do know that there are some to whom you are exposing yourself to.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You seem to think "eternal life" is a package that is presented to people with no thought, but it is dependent on a belief in Jesus Christ, His death, and His acceptance of His Father's authority in His life. God did not like the idea of sinful (read: "disobedient") people having eternal life (Gen 3:22). Why do you think that is, Jerry? (Reason it out for me, please.)

Why can't you just accept what is written in the Scriptures? You say that "God did not like the idea of sinful (read: "disobedient") people having eternal life (Gen 3:22)."

Are you not aware that all those living today who have been given eternal life are sinners and are not always obedient?

You even admit that all those to whom the Lord Jesus gives eternal life will never perish. And John tells Christians that they have already received eternal life. So if you would just use your brain for a change you would realize that Christians enjoy eternal security.