Paul uses the very word "antithesis" (ἀντίθεσις), in 1Tim 6:20, but does not use it anywhere else, including and especially not anywhere concerning Adam. One of the reasons why is because you do not "proclaim the end from the beginning" by revealing the "antithesis" but rather the "thesis", (Isa 40:21, Isa 41:4, Isa 41:26, Isa 45:21, Isa 46:9-10, Isa 48:3,5,16). A true "antithesis" would be someone like Qain or Barabbas. Moreover, you apparently do not understand what Paul is truly saying in what you quote: for he is telling you that you start out as the carnal man and must be converted, which is the same thing I am saying: it does not concern two different people but rather your "old man" and your "new man" in (the Testimony of) Messiah. Moreover you are ignoring everything else that has already been said throughout this entire thread. There are now four pages of evidence from the scripture which refute your position. I cannot force you to read so I suppose, since we will just have to agree to disagree, that you should find another thread or start your own.
Adam
- Thread starter daqq
- Start date
Paul uses the very word "antithesis" (ἀντίθεσις), in 1Tim 6:20, but does not use it anywhere else, including and especially not anywhere concerning Adam. One of the reasons why is because you do not "proclaim the end from the beginning" by revealing the "antithesis" but rather the "thesis", (Isa 40:21, Isa 41:4, Isa 41:26, Isa 45:21, Isa 46:9-10, Isa 48:3,5,16). A true "antithesis" would be someone like Qain or Barabbas. Moreover, you apparently do not understand what Paul is truly saying in what you quote: for he is telling you that you start out as the carnal man and must be converted, which is the same thing I am saying: it does not concern two different people but rather your "old man" and your "new man" in (the Testimony of) Messiah. Moreover you are ignoring everything else that has already been said throughout this entire thread. There are now four pages of evidence from the scripture which refute your position. I cannot force you to read so I suppose, since we will just have to agree to disagree, that you should find another thread or start your own.
It's literal.Originally Posted by marhig
Spooky? Why spooky?
Do you see that there are deeper meanings in the Bible and in the story of genesis?
The flaming sword turning every way to protect the tree of Life is spiritual not spooky.
So what is really the difference between yourself and "iamaberean" who seems to be saying that Eve was literally impregnated with reptilian twins by a talking snake?
iouae
Well-known member
I don't know if you are speaking to me or iamaberean daqq.
If you are, then I don't believe Eve was impregnated with reptilian twins by a talking snake.
Because I like you, I decided to take your advice and get another hobby.
Believe it or not I actually meant that as an attempt to force you to think about it: "iamabarean" takes the mindset and thinking all the way to its conclusion, which is really what I believe Elohim wants from us, whether for the good or the bad, hot or cold, as opposed to fence sitting or being lukewarm: either make the tree good or make it evil. It is speaking of how you are going to understand the scripture, and everything you read, and how you put it into practice in your walk. That is why circumcision was such a big deal and why Paul fought so hard against physical circumcision, because it is the symbol for basically the whole covenant. If you view circumcision as strictly physical in meaning, "then get circumcised if you want to join the covenant" would have been the law: but that is only the beginning, you must then continue in all of the commandments according to the physical "works of the law" interpretations, and thus you would be compelled to follow that way the rest of your life, in bondage to the physical interpretations of the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin ordinances, dogmas, decrees, and rulings. And as you likely already know, you might live a peaceful and "clean" life but you would die in your sins because no flesh shall be justified before Elohim.
Choose one way or the other, physical interpretation or supernal and spiritual, if circumcision is of the heart then either go get open heart surgery if you think that is still physical or understand that it is spiritual language and that circumcision of the flesh therefore profits you nothing. Then, follow that throughout your doctrine and walk in it, take that supernal understanding to its conclusion. Moreover, see, I have made "iamaberean" a type or figure for good, not really an antithesis, for no doubt Elohim wants us to choose one way or the other and take it to its conclusion: make the tree good or make the tree evil, (so that it can be cut down, but in the good sense, for the good, like Nebuchadnezzar). But if you stop short and "play dumb" because you know how ridiculous your doctrine might sound if you take it to its conclusion: then are you truly being honest with yourself and your Creator? At least "iamaberean" is not ashamed to go full monty. :chuckle:
iouae
Well-known member
The covenant of circumcision preceeded the OC as it was given to Abraham in Gen 17:11.
Circumcision got incorporated in the 613 OC commands.
When Paul went to the Gentiles, he went to synagogues where Gentile converts to Judaism and Jews gathered. These were all circumcised.
But as the Gentiles grew increasingly interested the question arose 1) would Gentile Christian converts continue to gather in synagogues and be circumcised 2) would Gentile Christian converts continue to gather in living rooms and not have to be circumcised.
This was a split from Judaism. There NEVER was a need for Gentiles to be circumcised, but if the only game in town was Judaism, then to know the God of Israel, one had to be circumcised.
When Paul came along, gentiles could know the God of Israel without being circumcised. Circumcision became the biggest obstacle to spreading the Gospel in NT times.
Thus Acts 15 conference decided on going into living rooms with the gospel, as presumably uncircumcised Gentiles would not be allowed en masse into synagogues, especially if they were Christians, not Judaisers.
And only a few requirements like abstain from blood and fornication were required of BOTH Jew and Gentile converts. Jewish Christians are, to this day, still required to be circumcised, as are all Israelites today even though their identity is lost to some.
Again you make the same mistake: either circumcision is physical or it is of the heart, including Abraham, so which one is it? Choose, because you indeed must be circumcised and Messiah has been made the Minister of "the Circumcision".
Romans 15:8-9 ASV
8 For I say that Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given unto the fathers,
9 and that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, Therefore will I give praise unto thee among the Gentiles, And sing unto thy name.
Deuteronomy 10:16
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiff-necked.
Deuteronomy 30:4-6
4 If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, [Mat 24:31] from there will the LORD your God gather you, and from there he will bring you back:
5 And the LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and he will do you good, and multiply you above your fathers.
6 The LORD your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live.
And from the same passage, (which also Paul quotes in Rom 10:4-9, (already addressed)).
Deuteronomy 30:11-19
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? [Rom 10:6]
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? [Rom 10:7]
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. [Rom 10:8]
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; [Mat 12:33]
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Moses sets before the congregation life and good, and death and evil: life -vs- death, blessing -vs- cursing, and says, CHOOSE THE LIFE, that you may live. The Life is the Spirit, the spiritual, and the supernal understanding of all scripture. Moreover how do you know whether or not sometimes, when Paul speaks of "the circumcision", he is not speaking of those having been circumcised in heart? (for they have passed from "the milk of the Word" to the meat). You don't know because your paradigm-thinking does not allow for you to even have any reason to search for such things, and sometimes he does indeed speak of "the circumcision" in those terms: for in your walk with Messiah in the Word you are heading for a telos, the point aimed at, which includes circumcision of the heart, and Messiah is the Minister of that circumcision, and it is not a circumcision made with the hands of men.
iouae
Well-known member
Like you Daqq, I believe that circumcision of the heart is far more important than cicumcision of the flesh.
Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
However, there is no command in the NT telling Jews they should no longer be circumcised. Whether Christian or not, Israelites were not told not to be circumcised. The Acts 15 instruction was to Gentiles, that they had no need to be circumcised, as was the case always.
Circumcision was for Abrahams descendants, FOREVER.
Gen 17:13
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
This covenant did not promise eternal life for circumcision, therefore was an inferior covenant to the NC. Everything is inferior to the NC.
Circumcision is almost irrelevant. My child was circumcised, on the 8th day, and I am not even a Jew, but because it is a good idea. I would advise this for all, Jew and Gentile. Then one forgets about circumcision until somebody asks you about it on this forum. Something you do once, takes half an hour, then you forget about it, is obviously different from the Christian walk, which is 24/7.
That is only your own physical interpretation of the circumcision covenant with Abraham. You cannot get to where you think you are by believing what you do because you are supposed to be included in the covenant with Abraham, and Messiah is the Seed of Abraham, and as Paul says, Abraham is "the father of us all", (Rom 4:16), and that means all those of his house, whether home-born or purchased with silver, (for example thirty pieces). The covenant before Abraham was circumcised, (the Gen 15 covenant-promise), does not discount the circumcision in any way if the circumcision is of the heart. Just because it says "in your flesh" does not automatically make it physical in application, (that is merely your opinion), for the heart is also flesh, but only considered so when it has been circumcised, and this is evident in the Prophets, moreover in places already mentioned previously herein. These things are not natural and physical, even though the flesh is mentioned, and the heart is flesh: therefore I say, start from scratch and assume from the beginning that you have a heart of stone which needs to be converted to a heart of flesh with the New Covenant Spirit which is the Testimony of the Messiah found in the Gospel accounts and the Apocalypse. When Yohanan says, "Think not to say within yourselves, 'We have our father Abraham', for I say to you that Elohim is able from these stones to raise up children unto Abraham", he speaks of those standing by who are seeking to be immersed. And when the heart is truly circumcised and converted it will indeed be for a "sign in your flesh" just as it was said to father Abraham. Understand? The Word spoken to Abraham was of a supernal and spiritual nature, not a physical meaning, which profits nothing. In other words it NEVER meant physical circumcision to begin with but rather that was the faulty, physical, carnal-minded interpretation of the rulers of Israel.
Ezekiel 11:19
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new Spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 36:26
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Concerning what I had said in my last post about the circumcision: in the New Testament writings there are two main body-temple analogies. The lesser is the body of the individual believer which is no more our own when we enter into faith in Messiah, and becomes the "little miqdash-sanctuary-temple of Elohim, (Exo 25:8-9, Eze 11:16, 1Cor 3:16-17, 1Cor 6:19-20). The greater body-temple analogy is the great congregation body-temple, all the believers in Messiah, which is his body, (and he is the Head), the whole congregation body-temple of Messiah, (the Ezekiel Temple). The following speaks in terms of the whole congregation body-temple of Messiah:
iouae
Well-known member
Jesus said in Mat 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
This takes a lot of steps to understand.
1) First we have to be told that understanding resides in the heart (which it does not, but only in the Bible is the heart assigned the job of understanding). One can have a heart transplant and one's understanding remains the same.
2) One has to understand what is meant by a heart "waxed gross". I have dissected dozens of hearts and the heart is covered by a membrane called the pericardium which serves a similar function to the penis's prepuce. It allows movement without friction. In fatty animals, the pericardium becomes filled with fat so that the heart becomes invisible. It just resembles a lump of lard. Obviously ancient folk were more familiar with this than us who buy a heart??? in the supermarket, without its pericardium.
3) Next one has to see that the fat is just a parable (comparable) for making something impenetrable. Christ is saying that the fat is a shield against understanding like a Faraday cage is a shield against an EMP.
4) Next Christ or maybe Paul draws a comparison between the heart and the penis and between removing the fat from the heart to improve understanding, comparing this to circumcision of the heart.
5) Next we must assume that the now tender and exposed heart will be more susceptible to instruction from God - again, a pure scientific fallacy, but a consistent Pauline parable.
6) If Paul has a fault (which I am not saying he has because there is a strong Paul contingent here) it is that, unlike Jesus, he takes a parable and runs with it. Jesus' parables make ONE AND ONLY ONE point. Paul takes a parable and runs with it, through the long grass, across rivers, over hill and dale, drawing MANY analogies from the one parable. And that is where WE not he get into trouble. Paul knew exactly what he believed. But in his eagerness, he exaggerates, he stretches, he squeezes the truth with a shoehorn to fit his analogies. And that is why we still sit 2000 years later going "huh?" when we read Paul.
Not true for us all, for I no longer go "huh?" when reading Paul. Understanding the Testimony of the Messiah first and foremost is absolutely critical to understanding Paul. The heart waxed gross is akin to becoming stone: and the Father warns in advance and tells his people what he is going to do so as to open up the iron chestplate, ("caul"), over the hardened heart:
Hosea 13:6-11
6 According to their pasture, so were they filled: they were filled, and their heart was exalted, therefore they have forgotten me.
7 Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
9 O Israel, you have destroyed yourself: but in me is your help.
10 I will be your King: where is any other that may save you in all your cities? and your judges of whom you said, "Give me a king and princes"?
11 I gave you a king in my hot displeasure: and I will take him away in my fury!
This kind of "king" cannot be seen with the eyes of the flesh: moreover the lion, the leopard, and the bear may be found and are expounded in various places throughout the scripture, most prominently in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13, and they are "the beasts of man", (our own "beast-like" nature while yet in an incomplete regeneration but walking towards/into that regeneration in Messiah). Moreover those four beasts are likened to the "four generations" in the first "age" of the man, (as already explained in the post which quotes Pro 30:11-14). You have to understand and believe that Paul believes all these things, and walks according to them, and admonishes his readers to do the same, (in the supernal way, according to the Testimony of Messiah, the New Covenant Spirit of the Ezekiel passages quoted previously above), for even Jer 31:26-34 teaches the same in the very context of the New-Renewed Covenant, (Jer 31:27). The Father will cleave open the iron chestplate-caul of the hardened heart, and he will use our own beast-nature(s) to do it: a lion or great lioness, (Dan 7 LXX), a leopard or a leopardess, a she-bear robbed of her cubs, corrupt "marriages" to false doctrines, as in the days of Noah, (and the queen of the south is the queen of Sheba-seven heads). And in the end Zerubbabel himself will remove the headstone of the heart in that day, and there will be shoutings, Grace! Grace to him! :chuckle:
iouae
Well-known member
Speaking with you Daqq, I learn something every day.
I had not noticed the 4 beasts mentioned in Hos 13 are the same beasts of Dan 7 and represent the final "Babylon the great". Hosea 13 is an end-time prophecy, showing how the Beast will trample on Ephraim which is one of God's 12 tribes, still around in the 21st century.
The whole purpose that God inflicts the end-time, Day-of-the-Lord punishments on that generation IS TO REMOVE THE CAUL FROM THE HEART. They are a wake-up caul (pun intended).
The final generation will be like Sodom, wealthy traders and luxury, with disregard for the poor and God.
Punishment, including captivity, enslavement of Ephraim by the Beast or Babylon, will wake Ephraim to return (maybe??) to God. No nation will be exempt from the "time of trouble" thus Jew, Ephraimite and Gentile will be called to open their ears, remove the fat from their heart, and take God seriously.
I take it that Zerubbabel will be one of the two witnesses, calling the world to repentance in that time.
Now narrow it down to your own little "world", for according to Paul the women are the cities are the covenants: and the covenants are one and the same covenant but rather seen through two different sets of eyes. The one set of eyes sees the covenant as strictly physical, literal, and historical in meaning. The other set of spiritual eyes sees the covenant through the New Spirit of the Testimony of Messiah in the Gospel accounts and the Apocalypse. The one who sees these things according to the eyes and mind of the flesh is of below, and is Hagar, that is, Hagar the Egyptian, (O Egypt, great of flesh! Eze 16:26 KJV, and the entire context of Ezekiel 16 is critical to this point).
Galatians 4:22-31
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according the flesh: but he of the freewoman was by the promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants, the one from the mount Sinai, which engenders bondage, which is Hagar [the Egyptian].
25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, O barren that bare not; break forth and cry, you who travailed not: for the desolate has many more children than she which has a husband [Isa 54:1,2, the Tabernacle of Elohim].
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of the promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what says the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Thus the "women", Sarah and Hagar, represent the "two covenants", and moreover represent the two cities: Jerusalem of above, (Sarah, "of the Spirit"), and Jerusalem of below, (Hagar the Egyptian, "great of flesh", see also Rev 11:8). And Paul plainly says it is an allegory just as it is an allegory in the Prophets, (Ezekiel 16 and the Apocalypse, Rev 11:8). They are therefore both the same covenant but rather seen though two different perspectives, two different sets of eyes, the carnal understanding and the supernal-spiritual understanding. The firstborn, (Ishmael), is according to the flesh and sees all things according to the flesh: and that great city of Hagar, which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, (Rev 11:8), must therefore be burned down to the ground so that the covenant may be renewed in the mind of the same individual, (the "old man" paradigm must be destroyed, burned down to the ground, forfeited, devoured by fire, Rev 17:15-18, and that is why the New Covenant is New Jerusalem and the Tabernacle of Elohim of Rev 21:1-5, (which Paul quotes from in 2Cor 5:17)).
The Two Covenants - a Tale of Two Cities:
Hagar -vs- Sarah
Ishmael -vs- Isaac
Esau -vs- Jacob
Pharaoh -vs- Moses
Mt Sinai (of below) -vs- Mt Horeb the mountain of Elohim (of above)
Jerusalem the city of below -vs- Jerusalem the city of above
Circumcision of the flesh -vs- Circumcision of the heart
THE FLESH -vs- THE SPIRIT
iouae
Well-known member
Fine, no problem with the above except for "They are therefore both the same covenant".
iamaberean
New member
What I say is scripture, but of course you leave that out.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
No, I did not leave anything out, but you are quoting things that you understand from a purely physical understanding; things you can only see through the wrong set of "eyes", get some eye-salve from the Master as he admonished the congregation of Laodicea. The adamah-soil is the soil of the heart just as the Master teaches in the Parable of the Sower: the outer bounds are the flesh, that is, the eretz, exactly where Qain was cast out to wander in, ("eretz Nod", land of wandering), when he was driven out of the adamah and the Presence of Elohim. Please go back, and truly be a Berean as you claim to be, and you will find these things already expounded from the scripture in this very thread. The only reason you might not be able to find them and understand what I say is because you do not want to find them or check what I say against what is truly written: in which case you are no Berean at all but rather an imposter and a namer and claimer, a so-called Berean in name only. Sin and evil dwell in the flesh, (not in the adamah-soil of the heart of the believer), and Paul lays this all out straight up for you in Romans 7, and the outer-bounds "commons-profane" area of your body-temple complex is the flesh, the "eretz", and that is where the tares grow up and wherein dwell all sorts of evil beasts and creepy creatures, (lol). Elohim does not cast literal human beings into eternal conscious hell-fire torment. The Master tells you the truth about that also: everlasting hellfire is prepared for the Devil and his angels or messengers. Those are not literal people but evil spirits, false doctrines, anything that deceives you and leads you away from the Father.
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Also the post which you quoted was not my first response to those posts of yours. I already responded to them, in Reply#48, which you yourself did not respond to. And so you that you need not go looking for it, here is what I spoke of in the above reply:
The kingdom of Elohim is within you, (Luke 17:20, 21).
In order to celebrate passover the ger had to be circumcised...they were saved from egypt and allowed to travel along with israel as hebrews and were blessed with Sabbath rest...one law for the native and foriegner but to partake in passover the ger had to be circumcised...some meat too was given to the ger not fit for israelite...
That which is spiritual must be symbolized physically...but not all that is physical is spiritual
Passover participation however like circumcision was still not salvific as it did not do away with sin...physically or spiritually/symbolically...
More than the traditionally understood four requirements were expected after acts 15 clean and unclean meats remained, no making of images, and Sabbath keeping remained...and of course the prohibitions against stealing killing etc...
All of which are still not salvific...the gentiles were of course crowding the synagogues on sabbath to hear about not just Moses but about the One who defeated death rose from the grave and well... provided that ability to all who would trust and obey Him...He/that of course is salvific...
And hearing Moses every week they would understand why and how He was killed and resurrected...and then to be led by the Spirit in becoming more firmly grafted into the trunk...to be more like Him/His way...His people
Paul didn't actually outlaw circumcision he just reminded everyone that it remained useless (as it always was) to SAVE...it profits nothing as flesh profits nothing...but what matters is the uncircumcised heart which follows the faith OF Him
Mercy rather than sacrifice...
I would say that Paul begs to differ with you on one major point, and that is because of what I have said already, that he so often speaks of "the works of the law", which were and still are the faulty interpretations of the rulers of the Yhudim, (all the way back to the Sanhedrin commandments written in ordinances and dogmas which existed in his own day). That is what he means in the following passage, for as I said, "circumcision" is a sign for the whole covenant: if you believe the proper interpretation of "circumcision" is physical then make the whole tree that way in all of your interpretations. Thus, if circumcision is physical in meaning, (whosoever holds such an opinion), then the one holding that interpretation is a debtor to observe the whole Torah in the same manner, (anything else is side-winding like a serpent), "either make the tree good, and its fruit good; or make the tree evil, and its fruit evil", in more blatant terms, "either make the tree spiritual, and its fruit spiritual; or make the tree physical, and its fruit physical", "Behold, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil, CHOOSE THE GOOD - THE LIFE, that you and your seed may live".
Galatians 5:1-11
1 In the freedom with which Messiah has made us free, stand firm therefore, and do not again be held with a yoke of bondage-slavery.
2 Behold, I myself, Paul, say to you, that if you become circumcised, Messiah shall be of no use to you:
3 And I testify again to every man being circumcised that he is a debtor to perform the entire Torah [according to the same physical interpretations of the Yhudim].
4 You who are declared right by Torah have severed yourselves from Messiah: you have fallen from gracious-favour [grace].
5 For we, in Spirit, by faithful-trusting, eagerly wait for the expectation of righteousness.
6 For in Messiah neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any strength, but faithfulness working through love.
7 You were running well: who held you back from obeying the truth?
8 That persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.
9 A little leaven leavens all the lump!
10 I trust to you-ward, in the Master, that you shall have no other mind: and he who is troubling you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
11 And I, brethren, if I still proclaim circumcision, why am I still persecuted? for then would the stumbling-block of the stake have been set aside.
And if indeed one obeys the truth, which is found in the Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts, (for the Master interprets Torah in many, many places, which many do not even perceive as they read), then it is not possible to hold simultaneous interpretations of both the flesh and of the Spirit-supernal. The two interpretations clash and war against each other when you really truly start digging into such things in deeper study: and the flesh mindset deceives the hearer and doer into thinking that he or she is doing the will of Elohim by carrying out the commandments according to the interpretations of the natural minded man.
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iouae
Well-known member
It had to be decided - was circumcision a requirement before becoming a Christian. Thankfully the answer was "No".
We cant save ourselves...can I get a “10-4 good buddy?” (CB slang for message received)
How about Hebrews 10:4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
So that settles it...that which is physical is not spiritual but a symbol sign representation etc.
What was happening with circumcision was idolatry...the judiazers were ascribing more power to it than it deserved...claiming the new converts coming into the faith had to be circumcised to be 1) save 2) associate with jews was NOT what was taught in the OT...and not even their ancestors could bare the burden/yoke of keeping laws to be saved...witness all the lost Israelites despite being circumcised...
That is the impossibility and false attitude to law keeping...NO ONE kept the law perfectly in the OT...or even in order to be saved but because they were already saved...
FACT: Mountain Sinai’s revelation of the Law happened AFTER they were saved...so obviously they couldn’t didn’t keep the Law and were saved
FACT: it was not asked who kept the Law...in order to be instructed how the exit would occur...just if you believe His Wrath is coming and wish to be saved kill the lamb and apply the blood...no other questions asked...no “are you murderer? Or theif? Or adulterer?” Just do this and live...
The law does not save...except to point out sin and to the One who can save...
The Master was the end, GOAL of the Law...all else is a shadow to Him...who sustains us...as we seek to do as He did...JUST AS...follow Him His faith
As for keeping the law...its like this...I play tennis...and like to play with those who wish to keep as many laws and rules of the games as they are aware of...and if I explain the foot fault rule and they are happy to keep that rule...it maintains the spirit of the game...ya dig?
If you keep one of the rules of tennis it doesnt make sense not to keep the others...
But neither of us are there to keep rules...they merely maintain the joy of play
I dont eat worms...neither does the Buddhist...am I keeping the 613? Is he? Do we now have to?
No...unless it makes sense not to and we wish to learn more...and realize it makes even more sense to embrace the rest of the rules...because “do this and live”
The physical rules lead to and preserve the spiritual joy of life...is all...it doesnt save...
Adam did NOTHING to be created...he had to merely choose to follow instruction to stay alive...have trust and faith in his Creator...
We did NOTHING to be born and even less to REborn...or be born again and yet “here are they that keep the commandments” and have the same FAITH...
Circumcision remains merely a sign...nothing salvific and it never was...
How can something done to you...and in your infancy save you?