A Walk Through Revelation

[fzappa13]

The "day of the Lord" is worded in different ways in the Bible.

The "Lord's day" in Rev 1:10 is believed by many Christians to be Sunday. That's just plain wrong, as there is just no logical reason to believe that. There are plenty of logical reasons to say that it is the "day of the Lord" (i.e., God's time of judgment upon the earth).

Yes, the "day of the Lord" is referred to many different ways in the Bible. I offered that term as a starting point but it is by no means exhaustive as it concerns that subject. As it concerns the term being confused with a "Sunday" Sabbath that brings up two issues: one being the day upon which it is observed and the other being the notion that the Sabbath, on which ever day it is observed, is the subject of Revelation. As it regards the former that is indeed an innovation that found it's way into Christian observance during the reign of Constantine that has no scriptural backing that I am aware of. As it concerns the latter there may be some argument for that in that the weekly Sabbath is a prophetic indicator of THE Sabbath which is very much the subject of Revelation. Said another way, both things are true. As it concerns the judgement of the earth being a facet of this book I would wholeheartedly agree but that's getting a little ahead of ourselves as it regards a chapter by chapter approach to this endeavor.

Thank you for your input.

 

[Idolater]

... an innovation that found it's way into Christian observance during the reign of Constantine that has no scriptural backing that I am aware of. ...

"On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread" Acts 20:7

 

[fzappa13]

"On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread" Acts 20:7

I'm don't understand what this has to do with the Sabbath.

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, the "day of the Lord" is referred to many different ways in the Bible. I offered that term as a starting point but it is by no means exhaustive as it concerns that subject.

Understood.

As it concerns the term being confused with a "Sunday" Sabbath

The only instance being confused with "Sunday" is Rev 1:10

that brings up two issues: one being the day upon which it is observed

The body of Christ has no sabbaths of any kind.

and the other being the notion that the Sabbath, on which ever day it is observed, is the subject of Revelation.

Not sure what you mean there.

As it regards the former that is indeed an innovation that found it's way into Christian observance during the reign of Constantine that has no scriptural backing that I am aware of. As it concerns the latter there may be some argument for that in that the weekly Sabbath is a prophetic indicator of THE Sabbath which is very much the subject of Revelation.

Perhaps with relation to the nation of Israel; but not for the body of Christ.

Thank you for your input.

You're welcome.

 

[Idolater]

I'm don't understand what this has to do with the Sabbath.

It has to do with "Christian observance," "innovation," "during the reign of Constantine," and, "has no scriptural backing." Isn't this all about Sunday and the Lord's Day and when the Church /churches would gather together to break bread?

Are you saying the interpretation of the Lord's Day meaning Sunday /first day of the week in Revelation only began in the fourth century?

That's what I wanted you to mean, but it doesn't agree with your word "observance" since that means something more than an interpretation or reading.

 

[fzappa13]

It has to do with "Christian observance," "innovation," "during the reign of Constantine," and, "has no scriptural backing." Isn't this all about Sunday and the Lord's Day and when the Church /churches would gather together to break bread?

"when the Church /churches would gather together to break bread" Is something you introduced into the conversation about the Sabbath. I find no scriptural reason to associate the two. Perhaps I've missed something.

Are you saying the interpretation of the Lord's Day meaning Sunday /first day of the week in Revelation only began in the fourth century?

I mean that observing the Sabbath on the Venerable Day of The Sun was instituted during Constantine's reign as a part of an effort to reconcile the Christian and Pagan factions within his kingdom by giving them common "holidays" that they both could celebrate. Sunday Sabbath is only one of several instituted in this effort. We are currently celebrating yet another of those "holy days."

That's what I wanted you to mean, but it doesn't agree with your word "observance" since that means something more than an interpretation or reading.

I'm not sure I understand what you said here. Perhaps you could clarify.

 

[Right Divider]

I'm don't understand what this has to do with the Sabbath.

Nothing, but he's trying to justify a tradition.

 

[fzappa13]

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Here we see listed seven churches which are in Asia. This same list appears again at the end of Revelation as well. My thoughts on this list have changed over the years. I initially researched the names of the different churches looking for meaning in their names but soon abandoned that approach as it didn't yield any consistent results.

Eventually I came to see the churches as archetypes for the various stages of faith that we find ourselves in at one point or another and as such they are applicable to all of us across the span of a lifetime. Having offered that thought I would also hasten to point out that there are some very specific admonitions offered that appear to have a more finite application and I hope to address those as well as we encounter them. One also can't discount the possibility that these admonitions are for those that find themselves facing the events that unfold in this book.

 

[Tambora]

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Here we see listed seven churches which are in Asia. This same list appears again at the end of Revelation as well. My thoughts on this list have changed over the years. I initially researched the names of the different churches looking for meaning in their names but soon abandoned that approach as it didn't yield any consistent results.

Eventually I came to see the churches as archetypes for the various stages of faith that we find ourselves in at one point or another and as such they are applicable to all of us across the span of a lifetime. Having offered that thought I would also hasten to point out that there are some very specific admonitions offered that appear to have a more finite application and I hope to address those as well as we encounter them. One also can't discount the possibility that these admonitions are for those that find themselves facing the events that unfold in this book.

Yes, there is so much applicable to any believers, and most especially to those living in the horrible troubled times they were enduring.
Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ lets them know the things that will benefit them to be able to stand firm and also tells them things they should avoid that could hinder their standing firm in their faith.

I have so enjoyed this study.
It is all about our Great Lord and Savior being victorious in every way as was foretold by all the prophets in so many different ways.
To me the whole book screams to not lose faith in our Blessed Hope because of anything the world can throw at you, for He has overcome the world.

 

[fzappa13]

I have so enjoyed this study.

Me too. Let's pray we get to finish it. I fear 2024 may well preclude that.

 

[Idolater]

"when the Church /churches would gather together to break bread" Is something you introduced into the conversation about the Sabbath. I find no scriptural reason to associate the two. Perhaps I've missed something.


I mean that observing the Sabbath on the Venerable Day of The Sun was instituted during Constantine's reign as a part of an effort to reconcile the Christian and Pagan factions within his kingdom by giving them common "holidays" that they both could celebrate. Sunday Sabbath is only one of several instituted in this effort. We are currently celebrating yet another of those "holy days."

So your concern all along has been the invasion of religion into politics? iow you believe in the separation between Church and State, and when Constantine made his edict of Laodicea or whatever it was is ... what? to you? Is that like when the Church lost her purity or innocence in history, is that some sort of watershed moment which actually bears on your interpretation of Revelation?

I am honestly mystified at how you're acting like you have no idea why I'm engaging you here. From where I set you were the one who broached the topic and you have been gas lighting me ever since about why I decided to bring it up (because I didn't bring it up).

I'm not sure I understand what you said here. Perhaps you could clarify.

It looked to me like you were saying that the Church gathering together in Our Lord's name on Sundays was a later and heretical accretion and error. You seemed to be saying that prior to Constantine, the Church worshiped together ("broke bread") on Saturdays and not Sundays (c. Seventh Day Adventism). So I contended.

If this is just because you're an ideological liberal (the United States is the first liberal republic in history, this isn't an insult) and the trampling of a liberal institution (separation between religion and politics is a liberal institution) is atrocious especially by the Church, then I'm right there with you, but it just wasn't what it seemed like you were doing.

 

[fzappa13]

So your concern all along has been the invasion of religion into politics? iow you believe in the separation between Church and State, and when Constantine made his edict of Laodicea or whatever it was is ... what? to you? Is that like when the Church lost her purity or innocence in history, is that some sort of watershed moment which actually bears on your interpretation of Revelation?

I am honestly mystified at how you're acting like you have no idea why I'm engaging you here. From where I set you were the one who broached the topic and you have been gas lighting me ever since about why I decided to bring it up (because I didn't bring it up).


It looked to me like you were saying that the Church gathering together in Our Lord's name on Sundays was a later and heretical accretion and error. You seemed to be saying that prior to Constantine, the Church worshiped together ("broke bread") on Saturdays and not Sundays (c. Seventh Day Adventism). So I contended.

If this is just because you're an ideological liberal (the United States is the first liberal republic in history, this isn't an insult) and the trampling of a liberal institution (separation between religion and politics is a liberal institution) is atrocious especially by the Church, then I'm right there with you, but it just wasn't what it seemed like you were doing.

I have no interest in addressing things I didn't say. I will address what I have said on this subject one final time, in a more succinct manner, in the hopes that It clarifies any unintentional misunderstanding. Any time is a good time to gather in the name of the Lord. I'm all for that. That has nothing to do with the Sabbath instituted by the Lord. The Sabbath was set forth as the 7th day of the week. The reasons for this are many, several of which reveal themselves in Revelation. Sunday is the first day of the week and is not and never will be the Sabbath. When one moves the day of observance one robs it of its ability to impart the teachings for which it was given and one substitutes their wisdom for God's in the process.

 

[Idolater]

I have no interest in addressing things I didn't say. I will address what I have said on this subject one final time, in a more succinct manner, in the hopes that It clarifies any unintentional misunderstanding. Any time is a good time to gather in the name of the Lord. I'm all for that. That has nothing to do with the Sabbath instituted by the Lord. The Sabbath was set forth as the 7th day of the week. The reasons for this are many, several of which reveal themselves in Revelation. Sunday is the first day of the week and is not and never will be the Sabbath. When one moves the day of observance one robs it of its ability to impart the teachings for which it was given and one substitutes their wisdom for God's in the process.

So you are a Seventh Day Adventist then. I mean it's either that or a Messianic Jew I guess? Wow. OK. I'll drop it.

 

[fzappa13]

So you are a Seventh Day Adventist then. I mean it's either that or a Messianic Jew I guess? Wow. OK. I'll drop it.

If you'll review the O.P. you'll see that this stroll through Revelation is deliberately intended to be outside of any denominational context. I am not a denominational adherent and so my perspective will no doubt engender some occasional discomfort for those that are. This is not my intent but it is no doubt inevitable. Look at it as an opportunity to review why you believe what you believe. I know I do.

 

[Idolater]

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Here we see listed seven churches which are in Asia. This same list appears again at the end of Revelation as well. My thoughts on this list have changed over the years. I initially researched the names of the different churches looking for meaning in their names but soon abandoned that approach as it didn't yield any consistent results.

Eventually I came to see the churches as archetypes for the various stages of faith that we find ourselves in at one point or another and as such they are applicable to all of us across the span of a lifetime. Having offered that thought I would also hasten to point out that there are some very specific admonitions offered that appear to have a more finite application and I hope to address those as well as we encounter them. One also can't discount the possibility that these admonitions are for those that find themselves facing the events that unfold in this book.

From the first time I looked at a map I always thought the locations of these churches was interesting. I did not ever know what to make of it, but it was provocative:

 

[JudgeRightly]

From the first time I looked at a map I always thought the locations of these churches was interesting. I did not ever know what to make of it, but it was provocative:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNmIagGtoQabuMGZN120ZqNwsoxVT22yA&si=-sHs2lYuGl3p1dJk

 

[Tambora]

Chapter 2 - churches of believers.
Piece by piece.


Church of Ephesus:

Revelation 2​

(4) But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.​

(5) Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.​

They are obviously believers by what is said of them in verses 2-3 so obviously they had not abandoned their belief in the Lord.
So what is this work of love they have abandoned that puts them in danger of being cast out?

In a nutshell ...... they weren't supposed to keep it hid amongst themselves but to proclaim the Light unto the whole world.

John 8​

(12) Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”​

​

Mark 16​

(15) And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation".​

Jesus uses salt and light to express that work that believers should do.

Luke 14​

(34) Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?​

(35) It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

​

​

Matthew 5​

(13) “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.​

(14) “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.​

(15) Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.​

(16) In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.​

Don't keep it hid amongst yourselves, shout it from the rooftops!
And do not fear what the world can do to you, for the Lord is victorious of the world.

 

[fzappa13]

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

This passage is no doubt one of several that contribute to the opinion of those that point to Revelation being so rife in "symbology" as to be largely allegorical. I have no problem with that notion but I think sometimes this notion overlooks the reality behind the symbol; the afore mentioned sword being a case in point. I would offer a scripture or two that would seem to indicate that, though outwardly symbolic, passages such as this are literally true.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

... and not to skip too far ahead but :

Rev 2: 16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

 

[Idolater]

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNmIagGtoQabuMGZN120ZqNwsoxVT22yA&si=-sHs2lYuGl3p1dJk

idk if Duffy said this but the map makes it look like the seven churches here are just like on the edge of Asia, but in fact they are pretty well dispersed throughout the whole Roman province or territory which was called Asia. It's not like Asia was Russia and China and India, it was like just Turkey. Galatia I think is also another name for the area or region or land.

So Paul wrote Galatians and Ephesians and Colossians and I think those are all also Asia.

The Ephesians got letters from both Apostles Paul and John. Rome and Corinth didn't get letters from both, but Ephesus did. That's interesting.

It seems like between Paul and John, the Apostles had Asia pretty much carpet bombed with spreading the Gospel.

Also note on the map where Patmos is, because it's just off the coast ... of Asia. So definitely it's possible John is just writing to the area churches, and he happens to be just off the coast of Asia, so maybe this is why these seven churches in Asia are the addressees. (Of course Our Lord is the One deciding whose letter this is, so it doesn't explain much that Patmos is so close to Asia. He could have had John write to anybody but He chose these seven churches, in Asia, that pretty well covers the whole territory of Asia. Why? Who can say.)

 

[JudgeRightly]

idk if Duffy said this but

You could always just listen and find out.

I promise, listening to those sermons is worth the time invested.