A Reply to Dave Miller

[Mateo]

rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;

 

[Ecumenicist]

A little something else to dodge. Gotta do my part ot keep you nimble...


Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

So, although Paul's Spirit is dead to the law, his flesh was still in need of the law, lest
it think itself free to sin without limits.

 

[Ecumenicist]

No dave, not if they ask.

"If your brother sins, rebuke him, if he repents, forgive him..." - Jesus


I think you are taking the part about Christ forgiving pagans for something they were absolutely clueless about IE: Crusifying the Creator God. Applying that across the board to people who know they are sinning but don't care or are proud of it is wrong.

"Forgive our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us" - Jesus
They were far from clueless, they knew they were being cruel, and they knew
that Christ was innocent, they confessed it. Remember that
pagans are held accountable to the law written in ther hearts, and for that they will
be judged. Yet even with all that, Jesus forgave them.

Dave, recall I asked you what sorts of "sins" compelled you to repent daily? Your answer was basically things you call sin, but God never does. For instance, if I should lose my patience, it's the person who I lost patience with that I need to apologize to, and pray to God to guide me where that person and patience are concerned.

As we do unto others, so we do unto God. That's the part you don't get. If I'm impatient
with my kids, or my boss, or the guy changing my oil, I'm impatient with God. And if
I act on that impatience and become angry, I am angry with God. Impatience and
anger are the antithesis to the fruits of the Spirit, therefore they offend, go against the
Spirit.

Do I need to repent to God for losing patience? Why? "Thou shalt always be patient" is not a command. Sometimes even God lost His patience. Sometimes there is a need to grow short of patience. Just like sometimes there is a need to hate or rebuke or edify. Of course these things can be misused, that's why we need to be lead by the Spirit, and if we err and apply these things wrongly, repent to the one we erred against and pray for wisdom in the matter.

Neither is "thou shalt not be gay."

Now you're talking about being led by the Spirit. Wonderful. We know the lead of
the Spirit by the fruits we bear. If we can rebuke in a patient, loving, kind, controlled
way, then maybe its something to consider.

Now, regarding your oft quoted scripture from Jesus. He's not talking about a brother
or sister sinning against you. He's talking about a brother or sister sinning against God.
And repenting to God. Repentence is to turn one's self, one's being, away from sin and
the world and towards the Lord. If you want someone to repent to you, you are playing
God. I sure don't want anyone worshipping me...

If I catch you stealing, I will rebuke you, out of love, because I care about you. If you
are stealing, you are hurting yourself and others. This is sin.

I find it amazing how you preach we should repent daily of things you label sin, but you have yet to repent of an obvious sin you were rebuked for.

I wonder what Jesus would say about someone who gets three apologies and rejects them
all? Oh yeah, I remember:

Matt 18:
32"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

 

[Nineveh]

Mateo,
Taking note for....?

I have repented. I'm not sure where you are headed with all this, maybe you keep missing my point to dave or something....

Let's keep reading... Romans 8:

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, ...

...and dave, Paul asks, "should we sin so that grace may abound?" Do you know his answer to that question?

 

[Nineveh]

"Forgive our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us" - Jesus
They were far from clueless, they knew they were being cruel, and they knew
that Christ was innocent, they confessed it. Remember that
pagans are held accountable to the law written in ther hearts, and for that they will
be judged. Yet even with all that, Jesus forgave them.

Dave, pagan romans did not know they were crucifying the Creator God. You are in error.

As we do unto others, so we do unto God. That's the part you don't get. If I'm impatient with my kids, or my boss, or the guy changing my oil, I'm impatient with God. And if I act on that impatience and become angry, I am angry with God. Impatience and
anger are the antithesis to the fruits of the Spirit, therefore they offend, go against the
Spirit.

Here is where we differ. Sometimes it's right to lose patience. Sometimes it's right and good to hate. You do these things. You admit to it. We all do. However, just as with judgement and sin, you feel you have the authority to decide when and what and how. That's why you end up in error so often.

Neither is "thou shalt not be gay."

dave, show me one sexual perversion God smiled upon.

Now you're talking about being led by the Spirit. Wonderful. We know the lead of the Spirit by the fruits we bear. If we can rebuke in a patient, loving, kind, controlled
way, then maybe its something to consider.

What page are we on? Have you repented of your false witness yet?

Now, regarding your oft quoted scripture from Jesus. He's not talking about a brother or sister sinning against you. He's talking about a brother or sister sinning against God.

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

And repenting to God. Repentence is to turn one's self, one's being, away from sin and the world and towards the Lord. If you want someone to repent to you, you are playing God. I sure don't want anyone worshipping me...

So we can only offer appologies to God for sinning against our brother, but we can't excpect repentance for a wrong done to us?

Perhpas you don't like being rebuked and asking your brother's forgiveness. Maybe that's why you treat others as you wish to be treated.

If I catch you stealing, I will rebuke you, out of love, because I care about you. If you are stealing, you are hurting yourself and others. This is sin.

What if I lied about you?

I wonder what Jesus would say about someone who gets three apologies and rejects them all? Oh yeah, I remember:

Firstly I rejected you "apoIogy" for "hurting my feelings", which you weren't guilty of. Secondly, I accepted your apology for misquoting me. I don't recall a third apology, unless you mean your backhanded sorry-you-see-it-that-way, thing. The issue is still a false witness, though.

Matt 18:
32"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

You don't think I would?

 

[Mateo]

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh

There is a proviso required to be able to lay hands on this lack of condemnation; namely, that you do not walk according to the flesh. Them's deeds, dear. I'm willing to bet you are not without spot in this respect, being someone other than Christ and likely not less subject to same than Paul..Therefore, I suggest that you would do well to remember and take solace in the earlier passage in Romans that Paul proferred and I reiterated....


Contrition is not a one time event. It is a lifestile...

 

[Nineveh]

Oh, ok Mateo, since Paul was still speaking, we should just shut him up because he started disagreeing with you? "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,..." Do you feel you are still condemened?

You know? You really should start your own thread on this. You keep trying to drag the topic off into wherever-you-think-it-should-go-land. As I said before, this thread has a topic.

 

[Mateo]

Allright, if my offerings of scripture trouble you to the extent that they require another thread to be addressed I'll trouble you no further with them...


...sweet dreams, artful dodger...

 

[Mateo]

So, although Paul's Spirit is dead to the law, his flesh was still in need of the law, lest
it think itself free to sin without limits.

Indeed


1Cor 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

 

[Mateo]

Said another way, God will give you all the rope need to hang yourself if you are so inclined...

 

[Mateo]

Does anyone remember being a teenager?... You know... That age when you had the keys to the car but... you couldn't buy alcohol or vote?...



...Do you think that just maybe, as children of God, that's where we are right now?...

 

[The Edge]

Do I need to repent to God for losing patience? Why? "Thou shalt always be patient" is not a command.

Nineveh, you are right, thou shalt be patient is not a commandment, but there are plenty of places in the NT where we are taught to be patient, or exercise "lovingkindness" as some versions say.

let me ask you this.....in all your dealings with me, have you ever been angry with me, enough so that you maybe had a fleeting thought of coming to find me and hurt me in some way? Have you thought unkind thoughts about me or perhaps someone else? Has someone really just pushed your buttons such that you wanted to do something mean to them in even a fleeting thought?

We all have. That's an example of sin, according to the sermon on the mount.

Have you ever coveted anything? That is, wish you had something someone else had? After you were saved?

We all do something, ,every single day, that is not perfectly consistant with Godly living. That is sin. Self righteousness is sin. We all sin, a lot. The difference is, before you get saved, your sin doesn't bother you. Unregerates don't care. But the HS works in you at salvation and makes you sad about your sin. Then, after salvation, if you sin you immediatly feel bad about it because the HS lives in your heart. When you say that you don't feel bad about sin anymore, that alarms me because you should feel bad, every day because even though you are saved, even though you are a Christian, the sinful nature still wars with the HS within your heart. And you will mess up. We all do.

And I was mistaken...it's Romans 7. Paul struggled with sin all the time, even after he was saved.

 

[Caille]

It would appear she deleted one of mine too.. a link to the flame warriors website which depicts a character called " artful dodger".


NIN to a tee...


After a year or two the trait becomes almost endearing...

I guess it's only Truthsmacking when they're pointing out the flaws of others ...

 

[Mateo]

I guess it's only Truthsmacking when they're pointing out the flaws of others ...

I guess that's one of the perks of being sinless... :chuckle:

 

[Caille]

I guess that's one of the perks of being sinless... :chuckle:

well heck - where do I sign up ? :BRAVO:

 

[Nineveh]

Nineveh, you are right, thou shalt be patient is not a commandment, but there are plenty of places in the NT where we are taught to be patient, or exercise "lovingkindness" as some versions say.

Right. However, wouldn't you agree it's just as bad to go too far the other way and show loving kindness when you aren't supposed to?

let me ask you this.....in all your dealings with me, have you ever been angry with me, enough so that you maybe had a fleeting thought of coming to find me and hurt me in some way?

No.

Have you thought unkind thoughts about me or perhaps someone else? Has someone really just pushed your buttons such that you wanted to do something mean to them in even a fleeting thought?

No.

Before I repented this wasn't the case, but not now. People who do silly things usually find their own punishments without my help.

We all have. That's an example of sin, according to the sermon on the mount.

Do you really believe Christ was telling everyone to never be angry? Even justly?

Have you ever coveted anything? That is, wish you had something someone else had? After you were saved?

No. This wasn't a sin I was in the habit of. Specifically, my sin was idolitry and being a slut.

We all do something, ,every single day, that is not perfectly consistant with Godly living. That is sin. Self righteousness is sin. We all sin, a lot. The difference is, before you get saved, your sin doesn't bother you.

I can't say I agree with you here. Firstly, that I sin everyday. My heart wills to follow God, I am no longer in rebellion towards Him. Secondly, my conscience used to trouble me without ceasing, that is no longer the case.

Unregerates don't care. But the HS

May I ask why you shorthand the Comforter? I've noticed beanieboy and dave do the same thing.

works in you at salvation and makes you sad about your sin. Then, after salvation, if you sin you immediatly feel bad about it because the HS lives in your heart. When you say that you don't feel bad about sin anymore, that alarms me because you should feel bad, every day because even though you are saved, even though you are a Christian, the sinful nature still wars with the HS within your heart. And you will mess up. We all do.

: shakes head : Why on earth should I feel badly for things I am not doing?

Of course you will come back saying I think myself to be perfect, and that is not at all what I am trying to get across. Nor has it been from post one of this thread.

If I stumble, I turn to my Savior. If I can see that I might stumble, I turn to Him for strength to overcome before apologies are needed. If I do err against my brother I expect to be rebuked so that I may repent so that my brother may forgive me.

And I was mistaken...it's Romans 7. Paul struggled with sin all the time, even after he was saved.

That's because we are human. We stuggle with our unredeemed flesh but that doesn't automatically mean we lose every struggle. The more we walk by faith the stonger our faith becomes.

 

[beanieboy]

(fyi - I shorthand HS the same way I shorthand lol, PL&S, because it is understood.
Less keystrokes. Nothing more. )

 

[Ecumenicist]

Originally Posted by Dave Miller

She [Nineveh] believes that she has no need to ask God
for forgiveness, not ever.

For the 4th time, I apologize for making this statement about Nineveh. It was a
mis-interpretation of the statements she has made. Specifically, the words "not ever,"
are a misrepresentation. Nineveh clearly and consistantly witnesses to the need
for all people, herself included, to ask forgiveness of God, and repent, in the name of
Jesus Christ, at least once in their lives.

Our ongoing debate centers around the need for asking forgiveness after having
repented at least once.

 

[Nineveh]

I apologize for making this statement about Nineveh.

I forgive you.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Dave, pagan romans did not know they were crucifying the Creator God. You are in error.

The didn't know they were crucifying God, but they knew they were engaging
in wanton and gross cruelty upon another human being, from the scourging
through the actual Crucifixion. And they knew they were engaging in these
activities upon the flesh of an innocent person, they witnessed to this. And they
knew this was sin.

Here is where we differ. Sometimes it's right to lose patience. Sometimes it's right and good to hate. You do these things. You admit to it. We all do. However, just as with judgement and sin, you feel you have the authority to decide when and what and how. That's why you end up in error so often.

I admit it, and I confess that for the most part, I'm wrong in doing so, because
I'm not doing these things in a loving manner. Even God's "hate" or rejection
is offered out of Divine Love.

Scripture tells me when and what and how. That which bears the fruits of
the Spirit are of the Spirit. That which does not, is not, it is of Satan. A good
tree cannot bear bad fruit.

dave, show me one sexual perversion God smiled upon.

We were discussing commandments, not what makes God smile.

What page are we on? Have you repented of your false witness yet?

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

So we can only offer appologies to God for sinning against our brother, but we can't excpect repentance for a wrong done to us?

Perhpas you don't like being rebuked and asking your brother's forgiveness. Maybe that's why you treat others as you wish to be treated.

I'll concede this point, I looked up the Greek, and it seems that the KJV
version which states "sins against you" is more accurate than NIV
"sins." This is a great surprize to me, however, I've always understood
the NIV to be the more accurate translation.

What if I lied about you?

I don't think you would intentionally, but if (and when) you do misinterpret what I
say, I have the grace to point out your misinterpretation without calling
you a false witness and liar.