A Reply to Dave Miller
- Thread starter Nineveh
- Start date
For what?beanieboy said:
Ecumenicist
New member
Nineveh said:
Why do you choose to ignore the Gospel of Matthew?
Ecumenicist
New member
Lets look at the history here.
A long time ago, on a thread far far away, you challenged (putting it nicely) my statements
regarding the need for Christians to ask forgiveness on a daily basis. In your argument,
you stated that a repentant Christian no longer needs to ask forgiveness for sins.
Knowing that Christ Himself directs us all to ask forgiveness on a daily basis, vis a vis the
Lord's Prayer, I asked you to clarify your interpretation of the Lord's Prayer.
You refused. (to put it nicely.)
After that, I correctly and accurately accepted and described your viewpoint, that repentant
Christians, yourself included, need not ask forgiveness on a daily basis, indeed, not ever,
after said act of repentance.
In this thread, I think I successfully argued that Paul never considered himself sinless.
To which you replied:
Now, based on my understandings of being in contrition and asking forgiveness, I would
conclude that we are in agreement regarding a repentent Christian's need to remain
in a relationship of humility before Christ. This is the idea I was trying to project from the
beginning, and I see now that we are in agreement. So, I recant any statement I ever
made regarding your inability to ask forgiveness of God through Christ.
Dave
A long time ago, on a thread far far away, you challenged (putting it nicely) my statements
regarding the need for Christians to ask forgiveness on a daily basis. In your argument,
you stated that a repentant Christian no longer needs to ask forgiveness for sins.
Knowing that Christ Himself directs us all to ask forgiveness on a daily basis, vis a vis the
Lord's Prayer, I asked you to clarify your interpretation of the Lord's Prayer.
You refused. (to put it nicely.)
After that, I correctly and accurately accepted and described your viewpoint, that repentant
Christians, yourself included, need not ask forgiveness on a daily basis, indeed, not ever,
after said act of repentance.
In this thread, I think I successfully argued that Paul never considered himself sinless.
To which you replied:
Now, based on my understandings of being in contrition and asking forgiveness, I would
conclude that we are in agreement regarding a repentent Christian's need to remain
in a relationship of humility before Christ. This is the idea I was trying to project from the
beginning, and I see now that we are in agreement. So, I recant any statement I ever
made regarding your inability to ask forgiveness of God through Christ.
Dave
Nineveh
Merely Christian
No, dave, we are not in agreement. My witness has never changed. Not from the first time I told you and you tried to discredit it, to this day.
What I told you was that you make up sin to ask forgiveness for on a daily basis. Which time out of 100 did you miss it?
"So, I recant any statement I ever made regarding your inability to ask forgiveness of God through Christ."
Some might say, "I'm sorry I lied about you." Wanna give it one more shot? They say 3rd times a charm.
What I told you was that you make up sin to ask forgiveness for on a daily basis. Which time out of 100 did you miss it?
"So, I recant any statement I ever made regarding your inability to ask forgiveness of God through Christ."
Some might say, "I'm sorry I lied about you." Wanna give it one more shot? They say 3rd times a charm.
Ecumenicist
New member
I dug forever, but I found the quote that led to all this:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=629741&postcount=170
You asked me if I had repented. I said I do every day. Then I asked "how about you."
and you replied that you only needed to repent once. That's the source of this whole
"false witness" thing.
You use the words repentence and forgiveness interchangeably, and so did I.
I'm humble enough to ask the Lord's forgiveness every day. I'm on a journey in which
repentence is an ongoing process, but by your definition, I gave my life to Christ many
years ago.
As it turns out, I misquoted you, and for that I apologize.
Dave
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=629741&postcount=170
You asked me if I had repented. I said I do every day. Then I asked "how about you."
and you replied that you only needed to repent once. That's the source of this whole
"false witness" thing.
You use the words repentence and forgiveness interchangeably, and so did I.
I'm humble enough to ask the Lord's forgiveness every day. I'm on a journey in which
repentence is an ongoing process, but by your definition, I gave my life to Christ many
years ago.
As it turns out, I misquoted you, and for that I apologize.
Dave
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Dave said:
Nineveh said:
Same? Nope. And it's really too bad you didn't link to the whole conversation of the thread, why is that dave? Was that the thread your witness was on?
If I recall, I also asked you of what things you asked forgiveness for so often. Recall what you said? Losing your patience, being unkind, basically an anti-list of the Fruits. Unkindness isn't a sin, nor is losing one's patience. Which leads me back to you making up things to repent of daily.
To make this clear (one more time)....
Not exhibiting the Fruits of the Spirit is an indicator you are lacking the natural outpouring of the Spirit, not committing sin.
Oh, but dave, you chastised me in this thread for that very thing. How very slimy of you to try to use it to weasel out now.
And then love your neighbor as yourself. You just can't seem to bring yourself to make that apology can you, dave?
No, actually your witness was surrendering yourself to a god that told you there are birds in heaven.
I accept your apology for misquoting me. Now, how about, "I'm sorry I lied about you."? There are now 6 pages on this thread of you trying to convince me you were right in your judgement, and you were in error. Time to fix that.
Mateo
New member
I stumbled onto something that might be germain to the discussion at hand...
Representatives of this new off-shoot, the "Lord Our Righteous*ness Church" (formerly called "Life Supports") are traveling all over North America. They have already sent missionaries overseas. Their sole targets are Seventh-day Adventist believers. Wherever they go, the agents of LOR amass the wealth of captured Adventists and train new converts to be additional Lorite group leaders.
You will learn in this study how they are devastating Seventh-day Adventist homes, as they take away with them wives, husbands, and chil*dren. Read these brief Informa*tion sheets carefully. Any day now, they may come to your lo*cal community, and you or several of your loved ones may be next. This is the closest thing to Adventist Moonyism to enter among us. Although it is the sheerest fanaticism, faithful Advent believers are routinely caught in the net during the very first meeting they attend. Captivated, brainwashed, they then submit to orders by men who brazenly call themselves god.
Originally entitled "Life Supports, " this organization recently officially adopted the name, "The Church, the Lord Our Righteousness. " Therefore, throughout this study, we will refer to their organization as LOR, and to them as Lorites, since, as you will learn later in this study, they have very little to do with our precious Lord.
[...]
Wayne Bent was an Adventist minister for 12 years. All or most of his pastorates were in the Southeastern California Conference. At some point in his work, he obtained a master's degree in religion from Loma Linda University. While pastoring in Colton, California, he developed a seminar which he called "Life Supports." After his wife left him, Bent left the Adventist ministry and began working full time on his seminars. Eventually, church leaders in Southeastern California Conference asked him to stop holding seminars in their churches. Something about what he was doing bothered them. Later recalling the incident, Bent comments, "The rejection of Bent's message is the rejection of God. Therefore God has rejected the denomination. "
Those who know him well, say that Wayne Bent has been strongly influenced by certain associates to carry his original messages to their present most terrible extremes. The first influential one was David Mead, and he has worked closely with him for the past several years. At first, Bent conducted all of the seminars, and then David Mead joined him and began holding them also. At some point in their work, we now know that Bent and Mead took special New Age courses with a focus on EST. Then, John Whitcomb joined them. Even down to the present time, it is recognized that Wayne Bent is at the top of LOR, with David Mead second in command, and John Whitcomb in third place. Ranking close behind them is Richard Roos. Roos, with his wife Bonny, were formerly Adventist missionaries in Africa. Among the top leaders only Bent and Roos, to our knowledge, were ever in denominational ministerial work.
Bent first met Mead and Whitcomb while at the Colton Church. Later, when refused permission by the Southeastern California Conference to continue to hold life Supports Seminars under their auspices (and therefore in their church buildings), the group started holding separate meetings at High Grove. This was a United Methodist Church that they rented in that area.
From the beginning, David Mead had the concept of "Follow me or get out," and gradually this pressure-tactic took control of the entire group. Still later, af*ter John Whitcomb and Richard Roos joined their teaching staff, they moved their headquarters to Sand point, Idaho, where they are today.
One of the first concepts taught was that of "the gift. " ("Would you like to have victory? You can have it right now. Christ offers you total sinlessness for*ever more through me, beginning at this moment, if you will but accept it and ac*knowledge me, and my group as your spiritual master. You will never again sin, and never again need Christ, or the Inspired Word for any guidance or help. ") "The gift of instantaneous sin*lessness" continues to remain the must fundamental of points in their first-night presentation, during which they entrap innocent Adventists.
Seems it's going around these days...
Representatives of this new off-shoot, the "Lord Our Righteous*ness Church" (formerly called "Life Supports") are traveling all over North America. They have already sent missionaries overseas. Their sole targets are Seventh-day Adventist believers. Wherever they go, the agents of LOR amass the wealth of captured Adventists and train new converts to be additional Lorite group leaders.
You will learn in this study how they are devastating Seventh-day Adventist homes, as they take away with them wives, husbands, and chil*dren. Read these brief Informa*tion sheets carefully. Any day now, they may come to your lo*cal community, and you or several of your loved ones may be next. This is the closest thing to Adventist Moonyism to enter among us. Although it is the sheerest fanaticism, faithful Advent believers are routinely caught in the net during the very first meeting they attend. Captivated, brainwashed, they then submit to orders by men who brazenly call themselves god.
Originally entitled "Life Supports, " this organization recently officially adopted the name, "The Church, the Lord Our Righteousness. " Therefore, throughout this study, we will refer to their organization as LOR, and to them as Lorites, since, as you will learn later in this study, they have very little to do with our precious Lord.
[...]
Wayne Bent was an Adventist minister for 12 years. All or most of his pastorates were in the Southeastern California Conference. At some point in his work, he obtained a master's degree in religion from Loma Linda University. While pastoring in Colton, California, he developed a seminar which he called "Life Supports." After his wife left him, Bent left the Adventist ministry and began working full time on his seminars. Eventually, church leaders in Southeastern California Conference asked him to stop holding seminars in their churches. Something about what he was doing bothered them. Later recalling the incident, Bent comments, "The rejection of Bent's message is the rejection of God. Therefore God has rejected the denomination. "
Those who know him well, say that Wayne Bent has been strongly influenced by certain associates to carry his original messages to their present most terrible extremes. The first influential one was David Mead, and he has worked closely with him for the past several years. At first, Bent conducted all of the seminars, and then David Mead joined him and began holding them also. At some point in their work, we now know that Bent and Mead took special New Age courses with a focus on EST. Then, John Whitcomb joined them. Even down to the present time, it is recognized that Wayne Bent is at the top of LOR, with David Mead second in command, and John Whitcomb in third place. Ranking close behind them is Richard Roos. Roos, with his wife Bonny, were formerly Adventist missionaries in Africa. Among the top leaders only Bent and Roos, to our knowledge, were ever in denominational ministerial work.
Bent first met Mead and Whitcomb while at the Colton Church. Later, when refused permission by the Southeastern California Conference to continue to hold life Supports Seminars under their auspices (and therefore in their church buildings), the group started holding separate meetings at High Grove. This was a United Methodist Church that they rented in that area.
From the beginning, David Mead had the concept of "Follow me or get out," and gradually this pressure-tactic took control of the entire group. Still later, af*ter John Whitcomb and Richard Roos joined their teaching staff, they moved their headquarters to Sand point, Idaho, where they are today.
One of the first concepts taught was that of "the gift. " ("Would you like to have victory? You can have it right now. Christ offers you total sinlessness for*ever more through me, beginning at this moment, if you will but accept it and ac*knowledge me, and my group as your spiritual master. You will never again sin, and never again need Christ, or the Inspired Word for any guidance or help. ") "The gift of instantaneous sin*lessness" continues to remain the must fundamental of points in their first-night presentation, during which they entrap innocent Adventists.
Seems it's going around these days...
Mateo
New member
Yes Nineveh, I recall that. What I am addressing with this post is the notion that you seem to be kind of flirting with along with no small number of the Open Theists/Enyartians at this website and never so vociferously as by "He Whose Name Must Not Be Mentioned In His Absense". Namely, the notion that after accepting Christ one becomes sinless... or, as "HWNMNBMIHA" insisted, even incapable of sin.
I find the notion curious, to say the least.
I find the notion curious, to say the least.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Well, perhaps you shouldn't focus on the wrong thing, then. The problem is a heart issue. A hard heart is never humble or repentant, not to God and not to man. Making up personal sins to feel sorry for isn't addressing a larger issue, what God calls sin. If you wanna start a thread about your thoughts on being under the Law, though, please feel free 
Mateo
New member
Nineveh said:Well, perhaps you shouldn't focus on the wrong thing, then. The problem is a heart issue. A hard heart is never humble or repentant, not to God and not to man. Making up personal sins to feel sorry for isn't addressing a larger issue, what God calls sin. If you wanna start a thread about your thoughts on being under the Law, though, please feel free
Couldn't pin the tail on Dave so now you wanna pin it on me... no thanks. I ain't sittin' still for it either...
... and if you want to dodge the issue proferred, I understand... I would feel something less than comfortable defending it as well.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Mateo said:
You didn't lie about me, so acting as if I am accusing you of something is pretty stupid. If you can't follow along, put the book down
Perhaps the issue is your unwillingness to make a thread to argue your thoughts on instead of one already dedicated to a topic?
Ecumenicist
New member
Nin,
I could pick up any of a thousand responses from you and label them "lies about be me,"
but that would be juvenile at best. Conversation is a process of learning each other's
viewpoints, which includes restating in one's own words what another person is trying
to articulate, and getting feedback as to whether that interpretation is getting closer
to the truth.
In the past several weeks, I've learned that we start with different assumptions regarding
the meaning of asking forgiveness, repenting, and a person's relationship with Christ
as part of the repentence process.
You've interchangeably used the terms "repentence" and "asking forgiveness," which led
to my "restatement of your opinion" as being "after asking forgiveness once of Christ,
one need never ask forgiveness again."
You then restated your position as being one of "constant contrition," after having asked
for forgiveness, or repenting.
Now my interpretation of this is that being in a state of constant contrition, you are in
fact in constant humility before Christ, which is what I was trying to say my relationship
with Christ is when I stated "I repent every day."
A better way to express my relationship with Christ would be that I live in a state of
constant repentence, repentence is now a part of my day to day life, as I strive to open
my heart to God's Will on an ongoing basis. Part of this process, for me, is asking God's
forgiveness on an ongoing basis, as Christ directs us to do in the Lord's Prayer.
Perhaps I misinterpreted your viewpoints and restated them incorrectly, which I've
apologized for several times, but I never intentionally lied about you.
Now, I know you don't really care about my opinions or interpretations of scripture,
repentence, forgiveness, or anything for that matter. It appears to me that all that
matters to you is manipulation of words and throwing fecal matter at people you
dislike (like Dave Miller and homosexuals in particular.)
Christ says that our relationship with God is reflected in the way we treat others. Well,
based on the way you treat others, I have no doubt about your relationship with God,
your state of constant contrition is really one of self loathing and God loathing, which is
projected onto others.
I could pick up any of a thousand responses from you and label them "lies about be me,"
but that would be juvenile at best. Conversation is a process of learning each other's
viewpoints, which includes restating in one's own words what another person is trying
to articulate, and getting feedback as to whether that interpretation is getting closer
to the truth.
In the past several weeks, I've learned that we start with different assumptions regarding
the meaning of asking forgiveness, repenting, and a person's relationship with Christ
as part of the repentence process.
You've interchangeably used the terms "repentence" and "asking forgiveness," which led
to my "restatement of your opinion" as being "after asking forgiveness once of Christ,
one need never ask forgiveness again."
You then restated your position as being one of "constant contrition," after having asked
for forgiveness, or repenting.
Now my interpretation of this is that being in a state of constant contrition, you are in
fact in constant humility before Christ, which is what I was trying to say my relationship
with Christ is when I stated "I repent every day."
A better way to express my relationship with Christ would be that I live in a state of
constant repentence, repentence is now a part of my day to day life, as I strive to open
my heart to God's Will on an ongoing basis. Part of this process, for me, is asking God's
forgiveness on an ongoing basis, as Christ directs us to do in the Lord's Prayer.
Perhaps I misinterpreted your viewpoints and restated them incorrectly, which I've
apologized for several times, but I never intentionally lied about you.
Now, I know you don't really care about my opinions or interpretations of scripture,
repentence, forgiveness, or anything for that matter. It appears to me that all that
matters to you is manipulation of words and throwing fecal matter at people you
dislike (like Dave Miller and homosexuals in particular.)
Christ says that our relationship with God is reflected in the way we treat others. Well,
based on the way you treat others, I have no doubt about your relationship with God,
your state of constant contrition is really one of self loathing and God loathing, which is
projected onto others.
