A Reply to Dave Miller

[Ecumenicist]

I'm curious, is it perhaps more appropriate for a Christian, when reflecting on their failings and sins in daily life, to say, "Thank you for your forgiveness this day," than actually asking for it again? I understand the desire to move to a place of "rest" or assurance in the grace of God, where one knows one is loved in such a way that one is not concerned with repairing a breached relationship or asking to be "readmitted" into the circle of God's love, but rather one is motivated to express continual gratefulness for that love. On the other hand, when one does not directly approach God and ask for forgiveness, one also runs the risk of becoming complacent and self-righteous, taking forgiveness for granted and then growing hard towards others who have not made the same "prescribed step" as you. Settling in to an ideological position of "already done" can lead not to a condition of open and responsive "grace-fulness" (grace+gratefulness) but to a kind of intractible self-righteousness.

I can see the value in both approaches, and I think both may help the believer who holds them just as much as they may disorient or "distort" them -- i.e., leading them either to continual feelings of alienation and vulnerability to rejection, or else to a hard smugness that has lost the grace of that which once delivered his or her heart into the cracked open place where something Other shines through.

Peace,
Balder

Much appreciated input Balder, and welcome as always.

My response would be that humility demands that we acknowledge ways in
which we have hurt others, hurt ourselves, made mistakes, and mis-stepped
on a daily basis. Christ says in the prayer, very clearly "forgive our sins, as we
forgive those who sin against us." So not only asking forgiveness, but
understanding how we have been impacted by others and offering forgiveness
on their behalf is also important, again, on a daily basis.

This doesn't start or end with alienation and vulnerability, far from it. I'm secure
in my relationship with God, though I still fear His righteous methods for
answering my requests, that I be made aware of my transgressions that I may
grow and heal. Rather than alienation and vulnerability, I enjoy the reward
of walking with God and growing closer to His Will and purpose in my life,
on a daily basis. Because I ask for forgiveness daily, I am drawn closer to God
daily. This is my witness.

Dave

 

[Ecumenicist]

How can you judge His standard if you really can't know it?

How are you in a position to judge God's standard?

Rather, I think God makes His standard absolutely clear so we can plainly see our need for Christ. Such is a proper use of the Law.

Not absolutely clear. We glimpse only the base of the mountain, which makes
absolutely clear our inability to comply in and of our own free will.

Accepting Christ wasn't a process for me, is it for you?

Not accepting Christ, ever turning towards God, ever growing closer to God.
Its a lifetime process.

It's not God's doing to cleans an unrepentant sodomite with a ritual.

Nope, its not. ITs through God's Grace in Christ that we all are cleansed.

I'm not catholic dave. I didn't think you were either. Being humble when we fall or are in error is one thing, but continually begging God's forgiveness for things He doesn't even call sin is not only redundant, but cheapens repentance/forgiveness. One day I hope you can rest in knowing you have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and the Fruits of the Spirit are a natural outpouring of Christ in you.

You've given up gossip altogether? Greed? Lust? Malice? Anger? Even
ignorance? You never hurt anyone, intentionally or unitentionally? You
don't lack humility in any way? You are sinless? By whose definition???
not sins?

This goes to the heart of all your judgements dave. Placing onself in a position over God to forgive Him is not a display of humilty. Nor is accusing God of sin. If I am expected to take your council, I need to know it is sound.

OF course not. Placeing ones self in a position where one can again accept
the Grace of God, and respond to it, that's waht I was talking about. Again,
anyone whose lost a loved one understands this process.

And the miracle is, that God takes the blame greatfully. Hence the Cross...

[QUOTE
Once again you bear a false witness against me.[/QUOTE]

No need, you speak for yourself quite eloquently.

 

[Nineveh]

How are you in a position to judge God's standard?

I'm not, the only thing I can do is agree with it. So, how are you able to make the claim, "God's Standard is too high for anyone. Neither of us can even think to articulate God's standard."?

Not absolutely clear. We glimpse only the base of the mountain, which makes
absolutely clear our inability to comply in and of our own free will.

How do you know you have the inability to comply with what you aren't sure He is saying?

Not accepting Christ, ever turning towards God, ever growing closer to God.
Its a lifetime process.

If you aren't sure about God's standard, how is it you know you are turning more to His ways?

Nope, its not. ITs through God's Grace in Christ that we all are cleansed.

Do you feel a "homosexual commitment ceremony" is = to accepting Christ?

You've given up gossip altogether?

I prefer people to know what I say to them. If someone is in error it does no good to speak behind their backs about it or tells others of their transgessions.

Greed? Lust? Malice? Anger?

None of those in an ungodly way. God gets angry, so I tend to get angry about what God does.

This looks like a fishing expedition, dave. You accused me wrongly, which is why I started this thread, now we have to go through a list of things so you can find fault with me?

Even ignorance?

Ignorance, like a tsunami, isn't a sin. Although wanting to stay ignorant is a pretty bad thing to do.

You never hurt anyone, intentionally or unitentionally?

That's a loaded question if I have ever seen one.

But I'll answer it anyway.

I never intend to harm anyone. But the way "hurt" is misused, you could easily find me guilty of "hurting feelings". Is it my intention to make someone feel badly? Sometimes. Like once a guy mocked a picture of an aborted baby. I certainly inteneded to make him feel badly for it. But unless I am in error, "hurt feelings" are not something I am going to apologize/repent/ask forgivenss for.

You don't lack humility in any way?

Certainly I lack humility in some cases. Such as being judged wrongly. Or when I am told I am to be humble to a mere man when he is in error. But towards God? Never.

You are sinless?

Yes. I have been washed in the Blood of the Lamb and will be judged by His righteousness.

By whose definition???

God's.

not sins?

I'm not sure I understand this part.

OF course not. Placeing ones self in a position where one can again accept
the Grace of God, and respond to it, that's waht I was talking about. Again,
anyone whose lost a loved one understands this process.

I will ask, did it work? Did one pagan turn to Christ after you started your "forgiving God" thread? Not that I have seen. You merely put those who love themselves the most in a position to judge God as needing to be forgiven.

You keep wanting to drop the part about God commiting sin. How is accusing God of sin showing humilty?

And the miracle is, that God takes the blame greatfully. Hence the Cross...

:vomit:

Now the Righteous and Holy Creator God is greatful to accept any sin you ascribe to Him? Gee, the least you could do is try to figure out what His stand is and use that one instead of your own.

Once again, your total lack of humilty astounds me.

No need, you speak for yourself quite eloquently.

You have wrongly judged me, dave. Instead of displaying this humiltiy you are so big on talking about, you persist in your error and try to add more. : shakes head :

 

[Balder]

It's interesting to consider why Jesus worded the Lord's Prayer the way he did -- why he asked us to pray to God to forgive us, just as we forgive those who trespass against us. One might expect him to say, "Let us forgive those who trespass against us, just as you forgive us," placing God's forgiveness as the example. But he didn't say that. Why do you think it is framed this way?

 

[Ecumenicist]

It's interesting to consider why Jesus worded the Lord's Prayer the way he did -- why he asked us to pray to God to forgive us, just as we forgive those who trespass against us. One might expect him to say, "Let us forgive those who trespass against us, just as you forgive us," placing God's forgiveness as the example. But he didn't say that. Why do you think it is framed this way?

I think Paul put it that way, though I don't know exactly where. Probably several places.

As always, I believe Christ worded it this way to remind us that we are called first to
humility before God. Exactly to prevent the kind of vapor locked self righteous
attitude that Nin and others exhibit. But alas, to no avail.

Dave

 

[beanieboy]

I agree.
If you first look at the plank in your eye, if you first think of your own sins you are guilty of today, and can't look up at God because you feel remorse, it's more difficult to put your nose up at others, which does little more than self serve. But if we approach one another in humility, then we can heal one another.

Peace.

 

[Ecumenicist]

I'm not, the only thing I can do is agree with it. So, how are you able to make the claim, "God's Standard is too high for anyone. Neither of us can even think to articulate God's standard."?

How can you not see this? Have you not read Paul? Have you not read the Psalms?

How do you know you have the inability to comply with what you aren't sure He is saying?

Because I trust God's Word. Read Hebrews, Christ, as our High Priest, enters the
Holy of Holies on our behalf. We cannot do this ourselves, we would be incinerated.

If you aren't sure about God's standard, how is it you know you are turning more to His ways?

By the fruits of the Spirit. Always. Peace, kindness, love, humility, gentelness, self
control. Gal 5:22

Do you feel a "homosexual commitment ceremony" is = to accepting Christ?

Uh, no, I don't even know how that's a part of this conversation.

I prefer people to know what I say to them. If someone is in error it does no good to speak behind their backs about it or tells others of their transgessions.

(Lots of self justifying stuff deleted)

I will ask, did it work? Did one pagan turn to Christ after you started your "forgiving God" thread? Not that I have seen. You merely put those who love themselves the most in a position to judge God as needing to be forgiven.

Yes, it works. People who give up on God altogether can find a space for healing,
for re-establishing hope in God. But the first step towards any healing is honesty.
False righteousness which masks anger towards God only makes people bitter.

You keep wanting to drop the part about God commiting sin. How is accusing God of sin showing humilty?

You're no where near understanding even the concept, so I won't waste keystrokes.

Now the Righteous and Holy Creator God is greatful to accept any sin you ascribe to Him? Gee, the least you could do is try to figure out what His stand is and use that one instead of your own.

That's right, He greatfully accepts our sin, and bears the burden and penalty for it.
How can you soooo not understand the sacrifice Christ made on our behalf?

Once again, your total lack of humilty astounds me.

Back atcha

You have wrongly judged me, dave. Instead of displaying this humiltiy you are so big on talking about, you persist in your error and try to add more. : shakes head :

Just answer the question, why did Christ direct us to pray daily, asking God to forgive
our sins?

 

[Nineveh]

How can you not see this? Have you not read Paul? Have you not read the Psalms?

I've read the whole thing, that's why I can not fathom why don't know where God stands. I also recall you joining in with pagans as they mocked Paul.

Because I trust God's Word. Read Hebrews, Christ, as our High Priest, enters the Holy of Holies on our behalf. We cannot do this ourselves, we would be incinerated.

Christ kept the Law, He didn't have a problem understanding what it said.

By the fruits of the Spirit. Always. Peace, kindness, love, humility, gentelness, self control. Gal 5:22

Well, firstly, even godless pagans can exibit these traits. Secondly, you have said you often ask forevigeness for not bearing these fruits. So, I'll ask again, more specifically, how do you know a "homosexual commitment cerimony" is in line with What God says?

Uh, no, I don't even know how that's a part of this conversation.

To recap:

Me: It's not God's doing to cleans an unrepentant sodomite with a ritual.
You: Nope, its not. ITs through God's Grace in Christ that we all are cleansed.
Me: Do you feel a "homosexual commitment ceremony" is = to accepting Christ?

Are you now saying that uniting two homosexuals leave them in their sin?

(Lots of self justifying stuff deleted)

You mean your fishing expedition came up void, in other words.

Yes, it works. People who give up on God altogether can find a space for healing, for re-establishing hope in God. But the first step towards any healing is honesty.
False righteousness which masks anger towards God only makes people bitter.

You want to help people heal by making them even more self righteous? Dave, the people that were on that thread are just as lost now as ever they were. At least stop lying to yourself about how it brought them to the conclusion they are indeed in need of Christ when all you did was feed their self-righeousness. Leave the healing up to the Physician.

You're no where near understanding even the concept, so I won't waste keystrokes.

To be quite honest, I don't want to be near putting myself in a position of accusing God of sinning. Nice cop out though.

That's right, He greatfully accepts our sin, and bears the burden and penalty for it.
How can you soooo not understand the sacrifice Christ made on our behalf?

Dave, Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sin. He didn't die so you could make Him the scape goat for sins you make up.

Back atcha

I'm not the one that judged you wrongly, then persisted. I am not the one who accuses God of sin while offering false hope to those who reject Him. Nor am I the one who goes so very far in trying to undo the Law so I can make up my own.

Just answer the question, why did Christ direct us to pray daily, asking God to forgive our sins?

Until you understand basic Christianity 101, there in no need to chase your misunderstanding of the Lord's Prayer. You have it backwards. You need to understand the simple things (the milk) before you tear into the meat. ( Going to mock Paul again? )

 

[Ecumenicist]

I've read the whole thing, that's why I can not fathom why don't know where God stands. I also recall you joining in with pagans as they mocked Paul.

Really? Wow! Where exactly does God stand? Enlighten us!

Christ kept the Law, He didn't have a problem understanding what it said.
[/QUOTE}

Christ was God Incarnate. You're not. Little detail you keep forgetting...
Or are you?

Well, firstly, even godless pagans can exibit these traits.

Right, which is proof that the Holy Spirit can act through pagans too. This does nothing
to diminish the truth or value of bearing the Fruits of the Spirit. It just serves to show who
is really acting and speaking through the Spirit of Christ, and who is telling lies about
the Spirit.

Secondly, you have said you often ask forevigeness for not bearing these fruits.

Yeah, so? What's the point?

So, I'll ask again, more specifically, how do you know a "homosexual commitment cerimony" is in line with What God says?

To recap:

Me: It's not God's doing to cleans an unrepentant sodomite with a ritual.
You: Nope, its not. ITs through God's Grace in Christ that we all are cleansed.
Me: Do you feel a "homosexual commitment ceremony" is = to accepting Christ?

Are you now saying that uniting two homosexuals leave them in their sin?

Not the subject here. The subject is your inability to humble yourself before Christ
and ask forgiveness, now that you're "repentent."

You want to help people heal by making them even more self righteous? Dave, the people that were on that thread are just as lost now as ever they were. At least stop lying to yourself about how it brought them to the conclusion they are indeed in need of Christ when all you did was feed their self-righeousness. Leave the healing up to the Physician.

What thread? I'm talking about sitting with people who have lost a child or spouse,
and blame God for their loss. What are you talking about?

To be quite honest, I don't want to be near putting myself in a position of accusing God of sinning. Nice cop out though.

IF God allows the death of a loved one, it hurts the person who is left. To the bereaved,
it appears as if God has sinned against them. God doesn't sin against God's self. But
God does accept the blame for our sins.

Dave, Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sin. He didn't die so you could make Him the scape goat for sins you make up.

Huh? Christ died for our sins, but not really? Not my sins? That's cold, even for you.

I'm not the one that judged you wrongly, then persisted.

You've been doing that since the first day I showed up on TOL!!!!

I am not the one who accuses God of sin while offering false hope to those who reject Him.

There is no false hope in God. This is impossible.

Nor am I the one who goes so very far in trying to undo the Law so I can make up my own.

Nin, you're not the judge, God is.

Until you understand basic Christianity 101, there in no need to chase your misunderstanding of the Lord's Prayer. You have it backwards. You need to understand the simple things (the milk) before you tear into the meat. ( Going to mock Paul again? )

Well, since I've explained repentence to you, maybe you can rethink your position
on the value of "repentent folk" asking forgiveness on a daily basis, as Christ directs.

Dave

 

[Nineveh]

Really? Wow! Where exactly does God stand? Enlighten us!

Us?

Anyway, the Bible is full of God stating His standard of Righteousness, which part did you miss?

Christ was God Incarnate. You're not. Little detail you keep forgetting...
Or are you?

Hardly dave, remember it's not me making up new sins. Jesus says, "follow the Law" many times. So He apparently thought He had been pretty clear laying it out.

Right, which is proof that the Holy Spirit can act through pagans too.

No where does the Bible say God dwells in pagans, no where. This is more false comfort along the lines of you handing out rewards in heaven to pagans.

This does nothing to diminish the truth or value of bearing the Fruits of the Spirit. It just serves to show who is really acting and speaking through the Spirit of Christ, and who is telling lies about the Spirit.

No dave, it just means pagans can be kind, patient and self controlled, etc. It does not mean every person who exhibits these traits is saved. Don't be silly.

Yeah, so? What's the point?

The point is, and was, you ask forgiveness for something that should be a natural out pouring of the Holy Spirit. You make up sin to repent of while ignoring what God calls sin.

Not the subject here. The subject is your inability to humble yourself before Christ and ask forgiveness, now that you're "repentent."

Dave, this is a bald faced lie and you should be ashamed to have uttered it. This makes the 3rd time you have born a false witness against me in this thread.

Recall, once again my witness. I was Baptised with the Spirit upon humbling myself and repenting before God who has just convicted me of my sin.

It's your witness of tickled ears that had no mention of humility or repentance. I will remind you again, I don't have to humble myself before a lying "preacher".

Now, back to the question:

Me: It's not God's doing to cleans an unrepentant sodomite with a ritual.
You: Nope, its not. ITs through God's Grace in Christ that we all are cleansed.
Me: Do you feel a "homosexual commitment ceremony" is = to accepting Christ?

Are you now saying that uniting two homosexuals leave them in their sin?

What thread? I'm talking about sitting with people who have lost a child or spouse, and blame God for their loss. What are you talking about?

Entertaining pagan ideas about God being at fault for death is a lie.

IF God allows the death of a loved one, it hurts the person who is left. To the bereaved, it appears as if God has sinned against them. God doesn't sin against God's self. But God does accept the blame for our sins.

No dave. Man is the cause of sin and death in this world, not God. They most likely believe such falsehoods because of "preachers" like you, who promote them. Every time you accuse God of sin (like tsunamis) you are bearing yet one more false witness, this time against God Himself. God doesn't sin. Nor is He to blame for bad things that happen.

Huh? Christ died for our sins, but not really? Not my sins? That's cold, even for you.

Christ died for our sin as He defines it, not the stuff you make up.

You've been doing that since the first day I showed up on TOL!!!!

Name it. I await your evidence.

There is no false hope in God. This is impossible.

I didn't say there was false hope in God, I said you offer false hope to unrepentant people.

Nin, you're not the judge, God is.

God comments judgement to us. Do you not know we will judge angels? But to be quite honest with you dave, you need a lot of practice because so far, you have been way way way off. You would be a lot closer to judging rightly if you used God's standard instead of your own.

Well, since I've explained repentence to you,

Although from you witness, you don't practice what you preach....

maybe you can rethink your position on the value of "repentent folk" asking forgiveness on a daily basis, as Christ directs.

Once you quit choking on the milk, dave, it would be nice talking meat with you.

 

[Mateo]

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 

[Nineveh]

Heyyyyyyyyyy Mateo! Long time no see! How's everything with you these days?



dave,
I'm hoping this will give your error about the Lord's prayer a little rest so you can focus on other things for a while.

Just answer the question, why did Christ direct us to pray daily, asking God to forgive our sins?

Firstly, let's get what the Lord's prayer says right:

In Luke 11 we read:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Jesus is not instructing us with this prayer to pray daily asking forgiveness. Note the periods to end thoughts and begin new ones. Let's see what else Jesus has to tell us about forgiving.

In Luke 17 we read:

"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

Jesus is teaching us here there needs to be repentance before forgiveness. This also makes the case one has to judge. See, "if your brother sins, rebuke him". That means one has to know what a sin is so they can point it out, so the brother has the opportunity to repent of it. For those who feel they sin daily and need to repent to God daily, perhaps it's because they place themselves back under the Law which, in Christ, they are dead to.

Paul instructs us in Romans 7 saying

"For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful."

And in Romans 8:

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

 

[Mateo]

Oh you know me... bugging the bride, following her around and picking up the scriptures that keep falling out of her Bible...

 

[Nineveh]

It's nice to see ya back and well

 

[Mateo]

Nice to see you... I see your still working on that hairball....

 

[Nineveh]

 

[Mateo]

I gotta go get some lunch.



You and Dave play nice now...

 

[Ecumenicist]

I gotta go get some lunch.



You and Dave play nice now...

Great to have you back, Mateo. Hope you stick around for awhile...

Dave

 

[Mateo]

I have learned to be greatful that God has not "blessed" me with everything I have asked for... may you not regret being blessed with me... for however long...

 

[Ecumenicist]

In Luke 11 we read:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Jesus is not instructing us with this prayer to pray daily asking forgiveness. Note the periods to end thoughts and begin new ones.

No punctuation in the original Greek. Periods, paragraphs, etc., all
modern inserts. "Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins," all part
of the same thought. "And" makes that pretty clear. Daily asking forgiveness
works in conjunction with receiving daily bread.

Let's see what else Jesus has to tell us about forgiving.

In Luke 17 we read:

"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

Matt 18 says:
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[f]

No mention of repentence in Mattew's witness.

And how do you resolve this against the Lord's Prayer? Jesus does not say,
"as we forgive those who repent." It would have been easy for Him to say, He obviously
understood the difference between sin, forgiveness, and repentence.

Jesus is teaching us here there needs to be repentance before forgiveness. This also makes the case one has to judge. See, "if your brother sins, rebuke him". That means one has to know what a sin is so they can point it out, so the brother has the opportunity to repent of it. For those who feel they sin daily and need to repent to God daily, perhaps it's because they place themselves back under the Law which, in Christ, they are dead to.

Or perhaps I am acknowledging, in humility, that I am here by the Grace of God alone,
and obedient to Christ's instructions layed down in the Lord's Prayer.

Paul instructs us in Romans 7 saying

"For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful."

And in Romans 8:

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Paul never claims to be sinless, on the contrary, he humbles himself utterly:

Romans 7:

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

He's not saying "I was a sinner, then I repented," Paul is saying "There is sin living in me,
here and now, I keep doing evil."