Theology Club: A Question for Open Theists

Sherman

Sherman

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musterion said:
Very well said and very true. At this very moment on another board, a quite arrogant newbie is stirring up trouble over completely innocuous topics. One of his stated hobbies is systematic theology. If I get a chance I'm going to ask him if he digs Sproul...I bet the answer will be "of course!"

Systematic theologies are boxes into which finite men end up trying to stuff the infinite God.
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Amen! I am a Bible Theist! I don't usually stick my nose into theology because theology books written by men are hard for me to understand. I just stick to the bible. I am a member of a number of Christian boards, even ones associated with my church. I attend a Baptist Church.
 
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Sherman said:
Amen! I am a Bible Theist! I don't usually stick my nose into theology because theology books written by men are hard for me to understand. I just stick to the bible. I am a member of a number of Christian boards, even ones associated with my church. I attend a Baptist Church.
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That only means you're handicaped. . . . ;)
 
themuzicman

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BrianJOrr said:
If man has libertarian free will, making him accountable for his actions apart from God’s will, how do you understand/explain these texts where God is clearly the cause of the action, but the action is clearly ascribed to the human agents, attributing blame as well.

Exodus 7:2-3; 11:9 – “But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and bring my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. . . . Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Pharaoh will not listen to you, that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.’”

Deuteronomy 2:30 – “But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might give him into your hand, as he is this day.”

1 Samuel 2:25 – “If someone sins against a man, God will mediate for him, but if someone sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?” But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for it was the will of the Lord to put them to death.” (Eli’ sons)

2 Samuel 17:14 – “And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, “The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel.” For the Lord had ordained to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, so that the Lord might bring harm upon Absalom.”

1 Kings 12:15 – “So the king did not listen to the people, for it was a turn of affairs brought about by the Lord that he might fulfill his word, which the Lord spoke by Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat” (Rehoboam did not listed to the people and his failure to do so was Gods work in fulfilling his Word).

2 Chronicles 25:16, 20 – “But as he was speaking, the king said to him, “Have we made you a royal counselor? Stop! Why should you be struck down?” So the prophet stopped, but said, ‘I know that God has determined to destroy you, because you have done this and have not listened to my counsel.’ . . . But Amaziah would not listen, for it was of God, in order that he might give them into the hand of their enemies, because they had sought the gods of Edom.”

Ezra 6:22 – “And they kept the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the Lord had made them joyful and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria to them, so that he aided them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.” (the king was against this, but he changed his mind, but the Lord turned his heart—will—to give them aid)

Daniel 11:36 – “And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.” (Here the King does as he wills, as it was decreed that he should.)

All the actions attributed to the parties involved were determined to come to pass according the Lord, and they are held accountable for them as well (Or shown that the Lord changes one’s will—Ezra 6:22—to conform to God’s purposes).

I ask because in the open theist literature that I have read (Boyd, Sanders, Pinnock, Rice), none of them interact with these texts.
If someone has addressed these already, can you provide the link on this discussion board for me? Thanks
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It is entirely possible for God to bring about circumstances that result in particular outcomes without violating free will.

If you read the entire story of Pharaoh, the story REPEATEDLY says that Pharaoh hardened his heart. So, what appears to have happened is that God created circumstances where Pharaoh's response would naturally be to harden. The same is generally true of these other sections.
 
intojoy

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patrick jane said:
yeah but, brianJ - none of that explains why God did any of that at all. i mean, why didn't God just come right out and tell us, look, if you people obey me, and do as i command, you can save everyone alot pain and anguish. i mean, why put us through all this ? why not destroy evil, right when it started ? why brianJ ?
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DUDE!
None of those examples have anything whatsoever to do with you at all. You haven't been put through any of the above, you're not a Jew. You're an Irish drunk. Hehe


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Stripe said:
"Libertarian free will" is a doubly redundant nonsense term. Men have wills; if a will is not "libertarian" and "free," it is not a will.
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There's no such thing as unlimited free will. Everyone has their own will but it is limited to one's nature, their sin nature.


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Totton Linnet

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Stripe said:
"Libertarian free will" is a doubly redundant nonsense term. Men have wills; if a will is not "libertarian" and "free," it is not a will.
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Or it could be enslaved, in bondage....as the bible says

Your eyes tell you men and women are slaves to dope or sexual perversion among a host of other things
 
Stripe

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intojoy said:
There's no such thing as unlimited free will. Everyone has their own will but it is limited to one's nature, their sin nature.
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Nope. People are always free to choose. They can always say "no."
Totton Linnet said:
Or it could be enslaved, in bondage....as the bible says. Your eyes tell you men and women are slaves to dope or sexual perversion among a host of other things
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Being a slave does not negate a man's will. He can always choose from among the options that are physically possible.
 
Totton Linnet

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He can choose but he can't do, he will choose not to do drugs...but he will do them...that is what Paul calls bondage. "Before you knew God [or were known of God] ye were in bondage"

If man had the ability to choose to be righteous there were no need for the cross, Christ's death and our death in Him is what sets us FREE
 
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Stripe said:
Nope. People are always free to choose. They can always say "no."

Being a slave does not negate a man's will. He can always choose from among the options that are physically possible.
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You can not will yourself to be as holy as Messiah? Dmn!


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Stripe said:
Right. You need His help.

However, "libertarian free will" remains a doubly redundant piece of nonsense. If it is not "free" and not "libertarian," it is not a will.
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And how does he help me to be as righteous as He??

End of thread


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Totton Linnet

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Stripe said:
Not necessarily.

It's possible to not.

Not true. Man does have the ability, but has not, save one.
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This is the deception that the devil holds the sinner in...the sinner believes he is in control, like the dope addict or alcoholic who is in denial.

Why would God send His Son to set us free if we were as you say already free?


Paul says we were slaves
 
Stripe

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Totton Linnet said:
This is the deception that the devil holds the sinner in...the sinner believes he is in control, like the dope addict or alcoholic who is in denial.
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:AMR:

The sinner believes he is in control because of his sin. However, he is free to give up that belief.

Why would God send His Son to set us free if we were as you say already free?
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People are not "already free"; all have sinned, save one.

Paul says we were slaves.
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Even slaves have wills. Men can always choose from among the options that are physically possible. Among those options are paths that are not sinful.
 
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