Derf
Well-known member
I have, some time ago. It is the confusion factor...and God is not the author of confusion. Rather, He takes confusing things and makes sense of them, or chaotic things and makes orderly things of them. Thus, when He introduces a confusing thing, like calling something "heaven" that isn't "the heavens", and then NEVER calls it that again, it is confusing. I know you've rejected that reason, but it is both valid and compelling for those who aren't already settled on their interpretation.Then you can't very well dismiss it without any reasoning given.
You still haven't given any reason why it cannot be BOTH/AND.
Yes, but not then afterward call "Heaven" "Earth" and something else "Heaven".Put yourself in God's shoes for a moment (figuratively speaking, of course). If you were starting to form a paradise where the creatures you have yet to create would live, wouldn't you call it "Heaven"? Especially if there was no corruption in it?
But you still recognize a difference between "heaven" and "earth" in the new of each, right? In other words, new "Earth" is not the new "Heaven", right? Even though the new Earth is no doubt a paradise, where God dwells with His people?Looking back at the Bible having been written in the past, knowing that God lives in Heaven, and that we in the Body of Christ are citizens of Heaven (and not of Earth), and that there will be a new Heaven and a new Earth, BOTH of which will be paradises, would one not be able to draw a parallel between God calling the Earth, where there had never been corruption, or judgement of sin, "Heaven"?
[Rev 21:1 NKJV] Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.
I don't have any problem whatsoever with that part of the theory. I thought I had made that clear.Heaven refers to both Earth (the planet) prior to the fall, synecdochally, but specifically, to the firmament God made that divided the waters above from the waters below.
If HPT is true, then it's the brown band between the two blue circles here in this cross-section of earth on day 2:
View attachment 11551
And then in this cross section of the earth on day 3:
View attachment 11553
Does it make sense, at least?
Whether you accept it or not is irrelevant here. Is what is depicted in contradiction with Scripture? Or does it comport to what Scripture says?
It conflicts where "Heaven" is named, then confused with something else called "Heaven" thoughout the bible.Then you need to show where it conflicts, because I'm not seeing it!
NOT IF THERE IS STILL A DISTINCTION BETWEEN "HEAVEN" AND "EARTH". If you call the second "Heaven" and then talk as if you never called it that, but use the word for the original heaven, it is confusing.Until you consider that it's referring to the paradise God was about to create... Then it makes perfect sense to call "Earth" "Heaven"!
I'm trying not to be so convinced of my own opinion that I can't see other points of view. If that bothers you, I don't know what to do about it. I'm not convinced of my interpretation/understanding of the creation narrative on all points. I'm open to hearing different viewpoints, as long as they make sense. The HPT is a good example. It is a worthy theory of the creation events, minus the "heaven"/"earth" confusion bit. But I would have a hard time saying "I know" on any of it that isn't spelled out exactly in scripture.I think I'm correct. So there.
Derf, could I ask you to not include phrases like "I think... [insert opinion about my postion here]" like the above in your responses?
It doesn't contribute anything to the conversation, and it makes it seem like all you have is opinions, but nothing factual. (cf 1 Peter 3:15; Proverbs 27:17; Matthew 5:37)
So, instead, do you want me to call you a liar? If I say that I know for sure you are incorrect, then it leads me to think you are lying. But I don't think (sorry) that you are lying, rather you are putting forward a possible viewpoint. If you think it is completely settled, good for you...unless you are wrong on any part of it, then bad for you, because you can't change without retracting what you've said in the past so forcefully.
But if it helps, you are incorrect on that point.
If "the earth" is formless and void, it isn't yet created. So we have to wait for vs 9 and 10 for it to be created.When I said "it introduces problems, I should have clarified, "for your position."
It makes no difference whether it stands alone or is part of Day 1 on my position, because my position doesn't require your previously stated rule regarding the "the" article in Hebrew.
In other words, it's completely irrelevant to my position whether it's simply an introduction and also/or just part of day 1. It makes no difference, because of the reasons I've outlined previously.
Except that it's not "the earth" (haares) that He's naming "Earth" (eres).
It's "the dry land" (layyabbasah) that He names "Earth" (eres).
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
PLEASE ANSWER: What verse (in Genesis 1) describes God creating "the earth" which in verse 2 is "formless and void"? IOW: Did "the earth" have a beginning? If so, how long did it exist before God started "Day 1," and where is it's creation described in Genesis 1?
Funny. And true. But remember that "historian's fallacy" you pointed out? It applies here to your point as well. They likely didn't know much about the shape of the globe earth.This is a historian fallacy.
The ancients (including the authors of the Bible) didn't know what "gravity" or what "Lagrange points" or what "space" was.
They knew "the direction away from the ground" = "up".
They knew "the direction towards/into/below the ground" = "down".
Everything written by the ancients is written within that context.
Hmmm, what else is a circle...
*cough*the earth's*cough*crust*cough cough*
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I'll concede this point.
I admit that it might be a different thing pre-day-2. I doubt it is for pre-flood.That's not good enough to establish your position, or to discredit mine, for that matter.
Wouldn't that just be confirmation bias?
Most of the uses of "the deep" are post-Flood.
But this also sort of misses the point.
I'm talking about "the deep" pre-Flood. Pre-day-2, for that matter.
It's talking about the shores of the land, possibly because mountains are so much higher now. See the following verses:If "the deep" of Genesis 1:2 just means deep water, and something is made in the midst of the water, dividing the waters below from the waters above, then "the deep" is no longer "deep" in and of itself, but it's still (at that point) below "the waters above...", is it not?
And since it's still "below," (iow, not "the waters above the firmament") what are the "storehouses" referring to in this verse?
He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap;He lays up the deep in storehouses.
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Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 33:7 - New King James Version
He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap; He lays up the deep in storehouses.www.biblegateway.com
And what are "the doors" referring to in this passage? Especially given the figure of speech used "the womb" which often refers to the depths of the earth (the reverse being used often as well, as a corollary figure of speech), as well as it "bursting forth"?
“Or who shut in the sea with doors,When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
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Bible Gateway passage: Job 38:8 - New King James Version
“Or who shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth and issued from the womb;www.biblegateway.com
[Job 38:8 NKJV] "Or [who] shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth [and] issued from the womb;
[Job 38:10 NKJV] When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors;
[Job 38:11 NKJV] When I said, 'This far you may come, but no farther, And here your proud waves must stop!'
I expect there are some things we don't quite understand about the plates of the earth, such that they might be buoyant to some degree, so that when the ice of Antarctica and Greenland melt, the shorelines don't change much. But that's speculation.
The firmament was created by separating part of the waters from the other part of the waters, then it was called "Heaven". Then there are two aspects of that heaven that are discussed: the firmament of it and the face of it. I just don't see how that isn't consistent. Birds don't fly in the firmament, but they do fly on the face of it. By the time you have birds in your view, that firmament has been called "heaven" and then it is called "earth". Or, if it isn't called earth (if it is only the mantle or something else that is still submerged), then how can the birds fly on the face of it?But it's not consistent with the rest of them.
Again, I point to the qualifying phrase vs the lack thereof for "the firmament."
If the bible said, "And this He also called "Heaven"", or some such. Or if later verses said "You were in the Heaven on Earth where Eden was." Or anything that shows that the thing that was expressly named "Heaven" was on the earth or under the sea for a short time. I'm sure that you think those exist, and have cited them for me, but those are not clearly giving those details; rather they can be easily read in other ways more in keeping with what the world looks like today. I also remembering you mentioning Ps 104, and I hope I'm not stealing your thunder (or making it impotent), but I read through it today, and it can just as easily support my position as yours, assuming you are focusing on vs 3Thank you.
What evidence would defeat your position?
[Psa 104:3 NKJV] He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters, Who makes the clouds His chariot, Who walks on the wings of the wind,
If there are waters above the heavens
Yes, this is the first time "firmament" is used in the narrative, so an article would suggest the reader/listener would know about it already. Therefore no article is used the first time it is introduced, just like "Heavens" vs "the Heavens", "Earth" vs "the Earth", and "Seas" vs "the Seas".Supra.
Uh, no...?
This is going to get complicated, but it's the best way to show what I'm talking about as clear as I can.
God (through Moses) ties "haraqia" (the firmament) to "samayim" (Heaven), with raqia being used 5 times prior to that, with NO qualifying phrase. (None is needed.) The five times "raqia" is used are as follows (direct Hebrew to English translation) (verse number):
"yehi raqia" ([let there be] [firmament*]) (1:6)
"wayyaas elohim et-haraqia" ([so made] [God] [-] [the firmament**]) (1:7)
"mittahat laraqia" ([under] [the firmament**]) (1:7)
"meal laraqia" ([above] [the firmament**]) (1:7)
"wayyiqra elohim laraqia samayim" ([and called] [God] [the firmament**] [heavens***]) (1:8)
Within 3 verses, you have five uses of the word "raqia"
Notice:
* "let there be firmament"; there is no article for "raqia" here
Agreed** "the firmament" is used four times, all referring to the same "firmament" of verse 6
Agreed*** "the firmament" of verse 6 is called "heavens"
I'm way beyond my knowledge of Hebrew here, but at least in the case of prepositions (based on my online search) the definite article is merged with the proposition when a preposition is used, probably because the preposition is a suffix and the article is a suffix, so the prime spot for a suffix requires the preposition. Here's what I found there:Following this, in verse 9, Moses uses "hassamayim" (the heavens) but DOES NOT tie it to "raqia," but rather to "the waters," which are defined as being below "hassamayim," the phrase being "yiqqawu hammayim mittahat hassamayim" ([let be gathered together] [the waters] [under] [the heavens]).
The next time we see "hassamayim" is a few verses later in verse 14, where we both agree that God is making things up in the sky. With this, we see not "haraqia" but a prepositional phrase "birqia hassamayim" ([in firmament] [the heavens]).
This same phrase, "birqia hassamayim" ([in firmament] [the heavens]) appears two more times, once in verse 15, and again in verse 17.
The last use of "hassamayim" is in verse 20, in the prepositional phrase "al-pene reqia hassamayim" ([across] [face] [firmament] [the heavens]),
The last four uses of raqia are "[firmament] [the heavens]," not "[the firmament] [the heavens]."
According to your supposed rule from a few posts ago, apparently Moses was talking about a new firmament each time... or maybe the rule doesn't apply at all, maybe it's not a rule in Hebrew.
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CASE 5: Before the Definite Article Hey
Finally, if a prefix is joined to a noun with the definite article, a contraction occurs: the Hey drops out and the prepositional prefix takes the vowel that was under the Hey:
![Before the Definite Article Before the Definite Article](https://hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Seven/inseps10.gif)
Examples:
![Examples Examples](https://hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Seven/Inseparable_Prepositions/inseps11.gif)
In each of these cases, notice how the Hey prefix of the definite noun drops and is replaced with the prepositional prefix.
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I don't know if the definite article is needed when the noun "firmament" is used as an adjective to modify the noun "heavens", but perhaps something like the merging described above is done, or the article for the adjective noun is not required.
No. Because the scripture is not clear that a second "raqia" is intended. Rather, the more likely connection is "Heaven", which is connected to both the early and the later "raqias". The most likely use, then, would be to see both the heavens and both the raqias as referring to the same creation object.Regardless, the text is explicitly clear in how it presents what God is creating, that the first "raqia" was named "Heaven," and that "the heavens" are a ""raqia"" in which the stars are placed and across which the birds fly.
Can you at least agree with me on that much?
I'll call your bluff here, as you ARE arguing that the raqias are different, and I don't see how, based on your description above, anyone would not see that's what you are arguing. That's not at all to say there aren't other raqias. There might be, but there's none that are called "raqia" in Gen 1. Both references are related in the text to "heaven", so there's no reason to suddenly conclude that there are 2 raqias and 2 heavens (not to be confused with the "3rd heaven" Paul refers to, because that might or might not be included in "the heavens").I'm not even arguing here that the raqia God created are not the same thing. I'm trying to point out that the text does separate them, at least grammatically.
Sorry, I'm not seeing that I'm wrong there.Right, and that's why I'm being so specific with what I'm saying. It's why I just went through the stuff directly above this comment.
I'm trying to show you that your preconceptions in this case are wrong, or at least, not valid.
You're asking, "Where did the water come from that was released in the fountains of the great deep?" It seems like it came from under the great deep. HPT's answer to that is sufficient, as far as I can tell. But it doesn't fit scripture to say that the great deep is above the firmament and below the firmament, and wherever else you are trying to say that it is. "The great deep" is used of deep waters. Depth of waters is measured from a surface. Some great deep under another great deep might work, but the bible never talks about multiple "great deeps" stacked on top of each other.Then you need to answer the following question: "Where did the water come from?"
Especially if no miracle is involved.
The HPT has an answer to this, and it fits scripture.
What is your answer?
Because there's a "heaven" in between, and heaven is defined and used in Gen 1 as the space/expanse/firmament/solid thing that stars are put in.Or, the Bible tells us exactly where God put it and used it, and your position has obfuscated it (most likely unintentionally) and renders an interpretation that is impossible todiscern.
So it's the same, but what it was divided by can't be the crust of the earth because..... why?
??? All I'm saying is that the perspective of the writers of scripture is inherently from the land. You seem to agree with me, so I'll move on.Humans are land-dwelling creatures.
Or what, you think mermaids exist?
From britannica.com (italics mine)Again, "ocean worlds" in science fiction stories and scenarios do not typically have any landmasses. Does that mean the body of water on those planets aren't "oceans"?
Ocean, continuous body of salt water held in enormous basins on Earth's surface.
Such language talks about oceans from a land-dwelling perspective, which would not be possible without some land to dwell on, fictional ocean worlds notwithstanding.
According to Josephus, Moses was a great captain of the Eqyptian armies against other nations, so he might have. He certainly saw the Red Sea in additional to the Med Sea. Note that Gen 1 doesn't, nor the translators, use the word "oceans", but rather "seas". So I'm not sure of your point about oceans.As far as I'm aware, Moses never saw an ocean. The Nile, perhaps, maybe the Mediteranean Sea, but not an Ocean.
Not really very different. Haven't you heard of sailors speaking of "the seven seas"?At least as far as the english language is concerned, Seas and Oceans are two VERY different things, despite both being large bodies of water.
I'm not prepared to go through that right now.Yes. We agree on this.
Only if Earth remained an ocean world.
But we BOTH agree that it did not.
This seems to be your strongest support against the HPT.
There's no "perhaps" about it, Derf.
That's literally what it's describing.
Basically, the secular theory of Pangea is that the continents of NA, SA, Africa, and Europe all fit together like puzzle pieces.
Except there's a huge problem with it.
See 29:18 in the following video for an explanation of what it is and why it doesn't work:
I recommend also just watching the whole video, so that you can get a better idea of just what it is I'm advocating here.
I'm ready to concede, for this discussion, the whole hydroplate theory to you, except where it tries to manufacture data from scripture that just isn't there. It's a glaring inconsistency, that should be dropped, and dropping it will not hurt the theory at all, just some of the supposed support that isn't really there.That's what the firmament is talking about, according to the HPT.
You've basically just conceded the entire discussion to my position.
So the firmament is now the primary thing called "Heaven" and the sky/space is more of a figurative "Heaven"? That's just weird.In other words, "yes."
Why couldn't God name the crust of the earth, that He was about to turn into a paradise, "Heaven," and then refer to the "firmament" figuratively by calling the sky/space "the heavens"?
Water at great pressure can support great weights that don't float at lower pressures. Just like some ships are made of concrete. It depends on the displacement. the large continental mass might displace enough water to float it.Because rock doesn't float and water isn't solid.
Think of it like a water bed, just big enough to cover the entire globe, but it's thicker in some parts and thinner in others, and stretchy and malleable enough to deform, except unlike a water bed, it's made of granitic rock roughly 60 miles thick.
If you put weights on a water bed, the surface of it deforms, and if it's heavy enough, and if the weight is heavy enough, and if there's not
View attachment 11552
View attachment 11553
The "pillars" the Hydroplate refers to are the places where the crust in the second image above touches the mantle, and in the first image, are what formed the basins that the waters above the firmament settled into, being "gathered together into one place."
A water bed doesn't collapse even though the material on top is technically heavier than water, because the water is helping to support the top layer, while the sides also provide structural support.
The sides of a water bed are not what supports the weight of the person in the bed, though the body is heavier than the water. The displacement of the body is enough to float the body, comparing the weights of the displaced water with the body. The sides merely keep the water from leaving the bed.
Potentially ONLY room in between. Remember that other words used for it are "expanse" and "space". These are not my words only.With no room in between.
So your "mayim" are UNDER the crust as well? I This is getting weirder.A firmament "in the midst of the waters" and "dividing the waters below the firmament from the waters above the firmament" is pretty specifically saying that immediately above and immediately below this new firmament that was created is "mayim" (which is always used for liquid water, not air or ice).
That comment fits well here.Not what the text says.
Right, AFTER it called the raqia "Heavens".Recall what I said above in this post:
Following this, in verse 9, Moses uses "hassamayim" (the heavens) but DOES NOT tie it to "raqia," but rather to "the waters," which are defined as being below "hassamayim," the phrase being "yiqqawu hammayim mittahat hassamayim" ([let be gathered together] [the waters] [under] [the heavens]).
The water below "the heavens" is gathered into one place.
It doesn't use "raqia" here, but "hassamayim."
I'm not "just assuming". I'm reading the text and letting it speak. It defines "Heavens" then uses "Heavens" with the definite article.You can't just assume that "hassamayim" is the firmament that was just talked about and named. You can say "it's the sky," and I would agree.
No.But to then assert well it must be talking about the firmament when it says "the heavens" would be to read the belief into the text.
Yes, outside the glob of water. "Above" fits, but is ambiguous if the waters haven't been pulled into a sphere yet. Not saying they haven't, but we don't know.I've pointed out a few times that "echad" is a plural unity, and is the word used here.
If by "outside" you mean "above" the waters on the planet earth, sure.
Seas below the earth's crust is already an odd thing to a reader of the text. Rather, "upon the waters" is a relative expression that refers to dry land being above the water, including where it seeps up if you dig near the water. No need for a new concept of "seas" below the crust in the text.You know what's another good verse?
Psalm 24:1-2.
The earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness,
The world and those who dwell therein.
For He has founded it upon the seas,
And established it upon the waters.
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Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 24:1, Psalm 24:2 - New King James Version
The King of Glory and His Kingdom - A Psalm of David. The earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein.www.biblegateway.com
Even in poetry, that would be an odd thing to say if there was not water "below the earth."
That happens a lot around here.No.
It does not say "above the firmament of the heavens."
You have to assume it means that, but that's literally not what the text says.
What you're doing is eisegesis.
Yes, quite, as you say below.Not quite.
Right. If waters are above the heavens (which is what the firmament is called), then it divides the waters and is in the midst of them (or between the upper and lower waters). That part fits both interpretations.The firmament is what is dividing the waters, and is "in the midst of" them.
SupraNo.
That's not what the text says.
It's "[firmament] [the heavens]."
Or stated a different way (not to be read as though I'm adding to scripture, just trying to clarify what I'm saying), "The heavens (which are) a firmament."
Ok, so you found a verse saying the heavens can be raqa'ed, but you didn't find a verse calling the earth a raqia. 1 point for each of us.Supra. "In the midst of..."
You're missing the forest for the trees, Derf.
Again, raqa is the verb, raqia is the noun. They have the same general meaning, just one is a verb, and the other is a noun.
The 'raqia' was named Heaven.
God 'raqa' the earth (above the waters).
The heavens were not raqa'ed.
The earth IS a raqia, because it was raqa'ed, by definition.
Again, raqa means:
Strong's h7554
- Lexical: רָקַע
- Transliteration: raqa
- Part of Speech: Verb
- Phonetic Spelling: raw-kah'
- Definition: to beat, stamp, beat out, spread out.
- Origin: A primitive root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal).
- Usage: beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.
- Translated as (count): and stamp (1), and stamped (1), And they beat (1), and they were hammered out (1), Have you spread out (1), I spread them out (1), is beaten into plates (1), overspreads it (1), To Him who laid out (1), who spread forth (1), who spreads abroad (1).
And raqia means:
Strong's h7549
- Lexical: רָקִיעַ
- Transliteration: raqia
- Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
- Phonetic Spelling: raw-kee'-ah
- Definition: an extended surface, expanse.
- Origin: From raqa'; properly, an expanse, i.e. The firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky.
- Usage: firmament.
- Translated as (count): the firmament (8), in the firmament (3), of the firmament (3), a firmament (1), from above the firmament (1), in firmament (1)."
For the latter, from the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon, it clarifies:
"(solid) expanse (as if beaten out; compare Job 37:18)"
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H7549 - rāqîaʿ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)
H7549 - רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from ; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.www.blueletterbible.org
The verse mentioned uses raqa.
With Him, have you spread out the skies,Strong as a cast metal mirror?
![]()
Bible Gateway passage: Job 37:18 - New King James Version
With Him, have you spread out the skies, Strong as a cast metal mirror?www.biblegateway.com
Another verse that uses "raqa" is Exodus 39:3:
And they beat the gold into thin sheets and cut it into threads, to work it in with the blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and the fine linen, into artistic designs.
![]()
Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 39:3 - New King James Version
And they beat the gold into thin sheets and cut it into threads, to work it in with the blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and the fine linen, into artistic designs.www.biblegateway.com
God "raqa"ed the earth above the waters.
He founded it upon the seas.
He established it upon the waters.
And part of that 'easily understandable' stuff is that when you name something, and then you use the name afterward, it usually refers to the same thing. Even a 3rd grader would understand that.Moses still wrote the book, Derf. Yes, God was guiding him, probably giving him information, and giving him details that no one else would have known.
That doesn't change the fact that Genesis, and the rest of the Bible, is still easily understandable by even a 3rd Grader, even when it does contain deeper knowledge that can be accessed through in-depth study.
I think we're in agreement there.It also doesn't change the fact that Moses still would have had no idea what a vacuum or gravity was, even though he can describe how God made the earth beautifully by saying "He hangs the earth on nothing." (Moses wrote Job, as far as I'm concerned.)
Sure. Doesn't change what I said.
A crack in the proverbial dike?It's not "a single passage."
It's all of the ones I've given so far, and more that I haven't.
Supra.
Yes, because wording is important! This is literally what I've been saying this entire time!
God MADE the firmament on Day 2.
He FORMED the firmament on Day 3. Or at least, He completed forming it part way into Day 3.
The dry land, which He named "Earth". We might call them continents today, or maybe a single continent. I'm open to either. This dry land/Earth is under the firmament, called "the heavens". It is certainly not dry land under the crust of the earth, right? (Please answer this question, it's not rhetorical.)PLEASE ANSWER: What, exactly, did God form in the beginning of Day 3?
Sky is the surface of the firmament, and space is the firmament.I'm not adding anything. I'm tying "the heavens" in verse 1 to "the firmament of the heavens."
You had no problem calling the sky/space "the firmament of the heavens," did you not?
Then there is no way to see the part that is under the waters and under the crust. If you aren't suggesting otherwise, then you must disavow all the stuff that is out of view of the viewer.Don't be a hypocrite.
I'm agreeing with you that the "the heavens" in verse 1 is referring to everything above the earth!
Did I suggest otherwise?
"Seas" isn't used after verse 8? Are we reading different passages?He didn't separate anything.
He cause the dry land to appear, by gathering the waters together.
Correct.
But the name isn't used after verse 8.
Supra (echo, echo, echo).If the name was used, then it would say "Heavens" not "the heavens" in Hebrew.
Supra.The heavens have already been introduced in verse 1. What was named was something introduced in verse 6. You're trying to take what was named in verse 6 and say it's what was introduced in verse 1.
Then you agree that you can't have seas under the crust? And because of that, you must be saying that the seas are above the crust only, and therefore if they are said to be "under the heavens", those heavens must be space and not the crust of the earth.Agreed.
Yet, if God defines/names a particular thing "Seas", then we should be careful calling other things in that passage "Seas", don't you think?Agreed.
I would call a global body of water with no landmasses an ocean.
I was using "Seas" anachronistically.
New York was founded in 1626. But it wasn't given it's name until 1664. I can still say, however, that New York (which was originally named New Amsterdam) was founded nearly 40 years before "New York" existed.
In the same way, God created what He would eventually name "Seas," BEFORE He gave it the name "Seas."
I'm simply tying "Seas" with the "the waters" (not "the deep") of verse 2.
I don't think I was suggesting they were correct just because they are experts, I was suggesting that their opinions are valuable on this matter. ( I might have forgotten which experts we are talking about, but my conclusion is a good one.)That's not good enough, especially since what you think put scripture in contradiction with scripture.
Read what I said again.
"These people [who] have expertise in this matter" can still be wrong about this matter.
Which is why it's a fallacious argument to use.
Fallacious, not false.
This is a false dichotomy.
People can have the proper expertise in a matter, and still be wrong on something pertaining to it.
To use an example I think we both would agree on, secular geologists are experts in their field when it comes to rocks, yet they wrongly assert that the earth is billions of years old.
To claim "they have the proper expertise in rocks, therefore they must be correct on how old the rocks are," is a fallacy, specifically, an appeal to authority.
Do you see what I'm saying?
You can bring up experts, no problem, especially as corroborating witness to a position.
It's when you claim "they are experts in their field, therefore they must be correct" that it becomes a fallacious argument.
Which I'm not asserting.I have no problem with obtaining translation help.
But to assert that the helper is de facto correct, simply because he's an expert, is wrong, because he, being human, is a fallible human being, just like you and me, and can be wrong on something, even if he's an expert on it.
To say otherwise is to assert that your expert is infallible.
Was it? Isn't this an example of begging the question, since your evidence is the passage in question?That's hubris at best. Idolatry at worst.
Again, to reiterate: There is a difference between presenting what someone says as evidence for one's position, and presenting what that same person says as though it should be considered de facto correct.
Why?
Until you consider that the planet God was creating was made to be heaven on earth.
SupraAGREED!
AGREED!
Nor should you assume your sources are right!
Nope, since He defined what He meant by the word and was consistent with His definition.What twisting of scripture? Look, I've been trying (and failing, it seems) to get you to be consistent and precise with which words you use when referring to the different things mentioned in Genesis 1. There's a reason I put quotations around phrases such as "the firmament" and "the firmament of the heavens" and "heaven" and "the heavens" and "earth" and "the earth," etc. It's not just because I like using quotation marks. It's because when the Bible says something specific, we should be paying specific attention to what it's saying, and not just assuming that when it refers to one thing over here, then it must also be referring to something else over there.
God created a paradise on earth, and you want to say that the "Heaven" he created was in the sky?
Do you not see the problem with that?
I hope you can see that calling the earth "heaven" has nothing to do with whether there might be water below the crust of the earth.Is it, though? (rhetorical)
Wrong.
The whole premise of the HPT is to answer the question of where the water of the flood came from.
If the fountains of the great deep did not come from below the crust of the earth, then the HPT is false, PERIOD.
It's a good effort, but the white circle is all of space, rather than encircling space, ending in the atmosphere of the globe earth.Missing the point.
THANK YOU!
I used ChatGPT to convert what you said into an image. Is this close enough to work with?
View attachment 11547
The area outside the white circle is water, the white circle itself is the firmament, inside is space, and then in the middle is the earth covered in water (ignore the landmasses there, AI image generation doesn't like drawing planets without landmasses for some reason).
Not really. A fountain is defined by its spray into the air. The ones I usually see are piped from somewhere below the water I can see, but I never here anyone saying "the fountain from below the water in the basin."But that's not allowed by what the verse says.
It says "the fountains of the great deep broke forth," not "the fountains from below the great deep broke forth."
See the difference?
Never said they were (except possibly the "windows of heaven" part). The fountains of the great deep were visible above the surface of the water in the seas, but I doubt Noah could tell that anything was coming from under the bottom of the sea.Yes. That is exactly my point. The land is above the water.
It makes perfect sense, if the waters of the flood came from below the crust of the earth.
It makes no sense if the waters reserved for judgement were up in "the heavens"
Close, but not really that close. Land is both under the water and above the water. Space is the firmament of the heavens. There's water above space.Your position, as I understand it, has (from the inside -> out) Earth, waters (Seas of verse 10), the sky/space, the firmament of the heavens, and then water above that firmament.
Sure, as I opined above.There is no land higher than the waters, positionally, according to your position. As you put it, the land is at the bottom of the Seas (and sticking out, but that's a slightly different sense than this).
What else? What are fountains? They are (loosely speaking) devices in which water comes up from below, gets pushed out at velocity upwards, then falls back down, usually flooding an area. A perfect analogy (or as close to perfect as possible) for the Flood of Noah.
That's a phrase that recognizes heaven as somewhere besides earth before it can be on earth. And the phrase is extra-biblical.There is no irony.
Until you consider that the one time it's mentioned, it's beefore the Fall, and all the other times it's used are after the Fall.
You keep forgetting that Earth (the planet) was a paradise. There was no need for a separated "Heaven" because Earth was literally Heaven.
The Garden of Eden was literally HEAVEN ON EARTH!
So, you're saying heaven on earth still exists today???The problem is that "Heaven" being separate from "the heavens" makes far more sense than does your interpretation.
What you're describing is land rising up from the water, "standing out of water," not "the earth raqa'ed over the waters."
You're describing earth above earth, not earth above water.
That's water over earth. "Waters above the firmament," "the firmament called Heaven," as it were.
I don't have a problem with that description. and "out of the water" means it isn't covered by water.The earth standing in the water is like a person standing in shallow water that comes up to his knees.
Hurrah!This is about the only thing you have correct.