A Challenge for the followers of Bob Enyart

[Behira]

What does the proberb say about a many who uses many words?

 

[1Way]

10-4 God Is Truth, I figured you were perhaps looking for more. Zakath is more honest than some, but God calls the atheist a fool for a good reason, basically they reject truth in the most significant ways, so his upright nature is certainly in doubt even if he gets some facts correct. You are more than welcome for the assistance, anytime. As far as the uptight response :sozo2: , that's just me, and not because of you but for Zakath's case, he needs someone to keep him in check. I figured as much about your intentions, but your thumbs up was a bit too affirming for me, so you sort of asked for it. But you hooked me in so I guess it worked! All in good fun. :thumb:

 

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Brother DRBrumbley,

No,"circumcision" is a part of the law.

No.Paul speaks of the "works" of the law as being a "curse":

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them"(Gal.3:10).

That does not sound like "grace" to me.And Peter called the law a "yoke" which he says that neither him nor his forefathers were able to bear:

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"(Acts15:10).

Again,that does not sound like "grace" to me.And the very next verse Peter makes it plain that he was saved by "grace" just as the Gentile believers are saved by "grace":

"We believe that it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved,just as they are"(Acts15:11).

But this is all you can say about Peter's words:

We are not talking about whether or not the the law applied to the Gentiles,but instead the words of Peter as to how he was saved.He said that he was saved by "grace" just as are the Gentile believers.

Paul makes it is plain as possible that the believing remnant out of the nation of Israel were saved by the election of grace:

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace"(Ro.11:5,6).

The Jewish believers were saved by "grace" (as Peter says),and if it of "grace" then it is not of "works".

So there can be no doubt whatsoever that the Jews were saved by "faith" alone.

Paul says that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth"(Ro.10:4).

The Twelve Apostles obviously "believed" and so there can be no doubt that for them Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for them.

But according to your ideas the Jewish believers must continue to attempt to establish their own righteousness by keeping the law.

Yes,the Jewish believers continued to follow the law through the Acts period.But this following of the law was not in order so they might establish their own righteousness.Instead,the Lord had a purpose for them continuing to keep the law during the Acts period.And that purpose is the same purpose which Paul speaks about in regard to his ministry to the Jews and his participation in the rituals of the law as seen at Acts 21:26.Here are his words to explain his actions,and they can be applied to the Jerusalem church as well:

"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law"(1Cor.9:20).

After the Acts period came to a close we can see that the Jewish believers no longer referred to themselves as "Jews" but now they refer to themselves as "Christians"(1Pet.4:16).And during the Acts period they remained under the law,but after that period came to an end they were "at liberty" from the law (1Pet.2:16 compare with Gal.5:1,13).

In His grace,--Jerry

Brother Jerry,

I had asked two questions in which you graciously answered. Thank You!

Question 1-Is Circumsion of Grace? And you replied

No,"circumcision" is a part of the law.

Question 2-Is the Mosiac Law of Grace? And you replied

No.Paul speaks of the "works" of the law as being a "curse":

These are the correct answers. What gets me Jerry is since you know this, you can still say the Jews were saved by faith with NO works. It is clear in scripture that the Jews had to keep the law. Otherwise they were doomed. Individually and collectively. There are exceptions (David comes to mind), but that is only because of God's DIRECT intervention.

And Peter called the law a "yoke" which he says that neither him nor his forefathers were able to bear:

and

And the very next verse Peter makes it plain that he was saved by "grace" just as the Gentile believers are saved by "grace":

Yes Jerry, this is correct. After Paul's conversion, there were no Jews or Gentiles. So Peter would be correct in making these statements. Also, Peter had a hard time with Paul's teachings. Paul did not teach what Jesus taught while our Lord was walking this earth. Jesus taught "keep the commandments", did he not? Paul said no! Cause the commandments are the ministry of death.

WE are talking about a time frame here Jerry. What applies to us now and since Isreal was cast aside is not the same as when the 12 were walking with Jesus. This is basic understanding. The Jews had to keep the law. Or die. And as Peter says, they couldn't do it.

This is fasinating studying scripture and being able to have a deep, meaningful discussion on this topic. I will have to finish the rest of your post tomorrow being I work at 4 AM and have to hit the bed. But thank you for this thread and may God Bless You.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

 

[1Way]

Behira - Ah yes, the proverb of verbose-man. Tell us please, what does it say.

That was cool, DrBrumley and myself posted at (very nearly) the same time, I expected to see my post, but saw his instead. But it was a pleasant surprise, he's a great poster.

 

[drbrumley]

And before I go,

I want to thank 1Way for the graciousness and humility in his presentation of the arguments at hand. It is a blessing to witness other brothers and sisters willing to speak of such matters in the attitude he gives on these boards. I wish there were more like him. God Bless You 1 Way!

In Christ,
DRBrumley

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by 1Way

10-4 God Is Truth, I figured you were perhaps looking for more. Zakath is more honest than some, but God calls the atheist a fool for a good reason, basically they reject truth in the most significant ways, so his upright nature is certainly in doubt even if he gets some facts correct. You are more than welcome for the assistance, anytime. As far as the uptight response :sozo2: , that's just me, and not because of you but for Zakath's case, he needs someone to keep him in check. I figured as much about your intentions, but your thumbs up was a bit too affirming for me, so you sort of asked for it. But you hooked me in so I guess it worked! All in good fun. :thumb:

glad to see we understand each other

 

[Freak]

Re: I can't believe Zak had the nerve 2 degrade B.E. after being so wipped!

Re: I can't believe Zak had the nerve 2 degrade B.E. after being so wipped!

Originally posted by 1Way


Reading Freaks description is one part informative, and 2 parts agregious. Bob has been a pastpr now for probably over 3 years or so, and I know of nothing about him toning down or removing content because he is now in a more reputation sensative vocation, the way Freak puts it. I have not visited ShadowGov much, but it was an interestingt site. Your open view, so your half way there to the teachings in the Plot!

I hope this helps.

When did I give such a description? :nono: Why do you do this?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by drbrumley

These are the correct answers. What gets me Jerry is since you know this, you can still say the Jews were saved by faith with NO works. It is clear in scripture that the Jews had to keep the law. Otherwise they were doomed. Individually and collectively. In Christ,
DRBrumley

DR says this despite what Jesus declared over & over again in the Gospel of John:

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?


Jesus was talking to the Jewish people! Get this through your thick skull. :bang: Works were not required but only faith/belief in Him.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Knight

Just so you know... Zakath is not a reliable source.

How so? Was anything I wrote in my post on this thread factually incorrect? :think:

 

[1Way]

Freak - As to you saying

When did I give such a description? :nono: Why do you do this?

I made a mistake, thanks for the correction, but no thanks for implying that I make such mistakes on purpose. You are being slanderous and accusing without any justification, I just mixed up your name with his, which is somewhat a natural mistake because when it comes to agregous misrepresntations, you are the king. You make Zak look fairly good in comparison, but the important point is that you are a false accuser, you do misrepresent the truth, and I mistakenly mixed up your names and I'm sorry for doing that. Here's my standing corrected.

Reading Freaks (CORRECTION) Zakath's description is one part informative, and 2 parts agregious. Bob has been a pastor now for probably over 3 years or so, and I know of nothing about him toning down or removing content because he is now in a more reputation sensative vocation, the way Freak puts it. I have not visited ShadowGov much, but it was an interestingt site. Your open view, so your half way there to the teachings in the Plot!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by drbrumley
It is clear in scripture that the Jews had to keep the law. Otherwise they were doomed. Individually and collectively.

Brother DRBrumbley,

You failed to addresss one of the verses I gave you:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believeth"(Ro.10:4).

Those who believed at that time included both Gentiles and Jews.So we can clearly see that the Jews were not made righteous by the law!

Jesus taught "keep the commandments", did he not? Paul said no! Cause the commandments are the ministry of death.

After the Acts period the law was no longer binding on the Jewish believers.That is what the epistle to the Hebrews is all about:

"For if that first covenant had been faultless,then should no place had been sought for the second"(Heb.8:7).

"For the law made nothing perfect,but the bringing in of a better hope did...so much was Jesus made a surety of a better covenant"(Heb.7:19,22).

This is basic understanding. The Jews had to keep the law. Or die. And as Peter says, they couldn't do it.

So none of the Jews were saved?

You just cannot seem to understand that the Mosaic Covenant was no longer binding on the Jwish believers after the Acts period.The whole epistle to the Hebrews is about the fact that the Mosaic Covenant has been done away and replaced by the New.

Despite the fact that Paul writes that "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believeth",you say that the Jews must establish their own righteousness by keeping the law.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Freak,

I just cannot understand why those who follow the teaching of Bob Enyart and Bob Hill continue to refuse to address the words of the Lord Jesus Christ to the Jews where it is plain that "faith" is all that is required for salvation.

They act like those verses are not even there.They go out of their way to avoid these words of our Lord and Savior.Perhaps they think that if they close their eyes and pretend that they are not there then they will go away.

But they will not go away.Here is the Lord Jesus telling the Jews that whoever "believes" has eternal life and is passed from death unto life:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

Freak,I can just imagine them reading these words and then quickly covering their eyes with their hands so that they cannot see these words of the Lord Jesus!

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by 1Way
...Bob has been a pastor now for probably over 3 years or so,

When you're my age, 3 years is "recent".

 

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by Zakath

When you're my age, 3 years is "recent".

:crackup:

 

[Zakath]

Laugh now, DR, but your day will come! :chuckle:

I've gotta go put on more liniment...

 

[1Way]

confession is good for the soul...

confession is good for the soul...

Jerry, just admit it, you are not even trying to understand what we are saying, the only reason you post what you do is to defend your presuppositions, you do not, and seemingly, can not, objectively consider and evaluate a position without letting your presuppositions override your supposed objectivity. The proof of that for me is that I can tell you 5 articles of my faith 30 times over the course of 50 posts, and you keep misunderstanding my views the entire time, therefore I KNOW that you are arguing from ignorance and from your own preconceptions which eliminate your false pretense of objectivity.

Just admit it, it will make you feel a whole lot better, and then we can all drop trying to do something that is impossible to do, make you understand what we are saying.

 

[1Way]

The truth is, you are not even trying to understand, you just oppose us automatically

The truth is, you are not even trying to understand, you just oppose us automatically

Or, if you understand our view so well, the be a good sport and faithfully represent it, if you can't or wont do that, then your bias and willfull ignorance is only obvious. You do a good job arguing your own preconceptions, but when it comes to ours, you are willfully ignorant.

But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant. 1Cor 14.38

Don't be a swine, be a Berean objectively seeking the truth, not by man's thinking, but by God's word.

 

[geoff]

I spent 18 months researching Jesus, Paul and the Law. I wrote a 10,000 word thesis on it. I even passed!

This whole "The jews were all legalists" idea is very very old, and very outdated. E P Sanders and Albert Schweitzer(sp?) (and a few others) shot this down in the last 20 years. Even hardened Lutherans like Stephen Westerholm have had to admit that this was a false idea.

Basically, Rabinnic/judaistic writings confirm that the teachers of the Jews did not consider the law something that would save, but rather, something that one obeyed BECAUSE one was saved. Salvation was faith only.

If the Jews own writing confirm this, it means that the people Jesus and Paul dealt with did NOT represent ALL of Judaism, but a minority, a few sects and cults within the larger framework. Saying that the Bible teaches that all Jews were legalists based on this, is a bit like saying "all Chinamen are short".

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

I just cannot understand why those who follow the teaching of Bob Enyart and Bob Hill continue to refuse to address the words of the Lord Jesus Christ to the Jews where it is plain that "faith" is all that is required for salvation.

It's called spiritual blindness and ignorance. The god of this age (Satan) has blinded their minds...

They act like those verses are not even there.They go out of their way to avoid these words of our Lord and Savior.Perhaps they think that if they close their eyes and pretend that they are not there then they will go away.

It's strange indeed. Jesus was consistent throughout the Gospels that faith alone brought salvation, eternal life.

But they will not go away.Here is the Lord Jesus telling the Jews that whoever "believes" has eternal life and is passed from death unto life:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

So clear!

Freak,I can just imagine them reading these words and then quickly covering their eyes with their hands so that they cannot see these words of the Lord Jesus!

In His grace,--Jerry

It's laughable that they reject Christ for the bondage of the law. :kookoo:

Jesus once asked:

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?

 

[Freak]

Re: The truth is, you are not even trying to understand, you just oppose us automatically

Re: The truth is, you are not even trying to understand, you just oppose us automatically

Originally posted by 1Way to Jerry


Don't be a swine, be a Berean objectively seeking the truth, not by man's thinking, but by God's word.

You're calling Jerry a swine? Yet you're the one acting like a devil. 1Way, Jesus Himself would harshly rebuke you as you deny His very own words...

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.