A Challenge for the followers of Bob Enyart

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Typical Freak...

So you agree that when Jesus stated:

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

...that belief/faith in Him was all that was needed to attain eternal life & status as a child of God?

Yeah, like the Jews "who believed in Him" and then sought to kill Him... They must be believers since they "believed" in Him, but are now of their father the devil, right?

Since you didn't answer, I'll ask again... Are you implying that the Jews in John 8 are "children of God" simply because they had faith in Christ?

How about something with substance this time Freak?

--Jeremy

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
Freak argues that "faith in Jesus" is all that is necessary. However, Jerry quotes John 5:24,

Jerry argues "belief in Him that sent Me" as the "faith" requirement. Which is it guys? Do we need to have "faith" in Jesus or Him who sent Jesus?

Jeremy,

Those who believed the words of the Lord Jesus were also believing the words of the Father--"For He Whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God"(Jn.3:34).

The problem with Freak and Jerry is they fail to understand that the audience in all of these passages understood that "faith" meant "faith in something."

It is not difficult to understand exactly what that "something" is the Jews must believe in order to be saved--"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God"(1Jn.5:1).

Jerry said,

"I just cannot understand why those who follow the teaching of Bob Enyart and Bob Hill continue to refuse to address the words of the Lord Jesus Christ to the Jews where it is plain that "faith" is all that is required for salvation."

It is plain Jerry? I love how you pick and choose what is "plain" and what is figurative.

John writes that "whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God."

We all must have faith in something, and Gos decides how He wants man to show that faith.

Yes,but the Lord does not need to see outward demonstrations of our faith before He knows whether or not one has faith or not.

...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart"(1Sam.16:7).

The Jews who lived under the law were not saved by "faith" plus the "obedience of faith" (works).Instead,they were saved by "faith" alone.Here are Paul's words in regard to David,who lived under the law:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered"(Ro.4:5-7).

Jerry, Freak, Zak and geoff will all be hard pressed to find one instance where the Jews walking the earth with Christ ever "had faith in" His death, burial and resurrection for salvation.

As I have already demonstrated,the Jews who received the Lord Jesus were "born of God" when they believed that Jesus is the promised Messiah.

Let's take a look at the 8th chapter of John (which Freak actually quoted from above). Jerry begins with,

"Here is the Lord Jesus telling the Jews that whoever "believes" has eternal life and is passed from death unto life."

Uh oh Jerry, looks like you got us... Let's reason together from John 8.

Here you do not even explain what the Lord Jesus is saying.Instead you run off to another place in the Scriptures to attempt to prove that what the Lord Jesus said is not true.

TYPICAL!!

What does Jesus tell "those who believed in Him?" They needed to abide in His word. Wait! I thought "faith alone" was enough! What the heck is Jesus talking about Jerry

There were some who "believed in Him" but they were not yet born again.That is why the Scriptures speak of believing with one's "heart" and understanding with one's "heart".Here is an example of men who "believed in His Name" but who were not yet born again:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men"(Jn.2:23,24).

And it is no coincidence that the chapter that immediately follows is in regard to being "born again".

These men needed to "abide" in His word until they were indeed born of God.They had a "mental" knowledge of Who the Lord was but it was not yet rooted in their hearts.

The Jews who just believed in Him are now offended. They claim they do not need to be set free from anything.

Again,the truth was not yet rooted in their hearts so they were not yet "born of God".

Wait a second Lord! Jerry and Freak say that "faith" is enough!

Wait a second Lord!Jerry and Freak did say that "faith" is enough,but so did the Lord Jeus.Here are His words at another place:

"It is the Spirit that giveth life...the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

Wait a second Lord.Jeremy is saying that His words do not give life,but instead he teaches that it takes His Word plus "works"!.But Peter says that in order to be "born again" one must believe the "gospel":

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.... But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you"(1Pet.1:23,25).

Jeremy thinks that the Jews who lived at the time the Lord walked the earth had to have "faith" plus do "works" in order to be saved,despite the fact that Peter says that he was saved by "grace" just as the Gentiles:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved,just as they are"(Acts15:11).

And Paul had this to say about "grace" in regard to the Jewish believers:

" And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace"(Ro.11:6).

Despite the fact that Peter says that he was saved by "grace" Jeremy still says that he was saved by "faith" plus "works".

Why are you telling them that if they were of Abraham, they would do the works of Abraham?

Because those who believe in their hearts do attempt to be obedient to the faith.But here is what the Lord said to these Pharisees:

"..but ye seek to kill Me,because My word hath no place in you"(Jn.8:37).

These guys "believed" in Jesus in verse 30. Now, Christ tells them they are of their father the devil.

This argumernt of yours is so weak,but this is about what I expected.It never says that these men who the Lord said that their father is the devil ever believed.Instead,we read that "many believed on Him"(v.30).

Many believed but not "all".

In regard to those whose father is the devil He said that His word had no place in them (v.37).

He goes on to tell them that He is God (v 58). What do these believers do? They take up stones to kill Him (v 59).

Jerry / Freak, what gives?

What "gives" is your mistaken view that they ever believed in Him in the first place.You attempt to make an argument based on the false premise that they actually believed in Him despite the Lord's own words that His word had no place in them!

And that about sums up your arguments.You attempt to prove that the Lord Jesus never said that "faith" was sufficent for salvation,despite the fact that He said:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

You attempt to use the Pharisees of an example of men who believed,even though the Lord Jesus Himself said that His word had no place in them!

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*

Typical Freak...
Since you didn't answer, I'll ask again... Are you implying that the Jews in John 8 are "children of God" simply because they had faith in Christ?

Only God knows the hearts of men. I don't but I do know what God has revealed as being true.

How about something with substance this time Freak?

--Jeremy

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

...that belief/faith in Him was all that was needed to attain eternal life & status as a child of God?

Yes or no will do....

 

[1Way]

Acts9 12out - Thank you kindly, but with all due respect, that was one jammin post! :thumb: You quote their verses and beliefs together, you show them how they believed in "God", but rejected His teachings, so Jesus rejects them for rejecting His word! They were children of the devil who needed to get set free by obeying His word, and after Jesus spoke the truth in love, they took up stones to kill Him.

Jesus was “plainly” saying that faith alone in God was not enough, you had to abide in His word (produce good works), believe that He was the promised one, not in the death burial and resurrection, that was different gospel, and if they were not children of the devil but were children of Abraham, then they would do the works of Abraham, it was not just faith alone, Jesus taught a works based faith that conformed to the OT faith of Abraham while circumcised.

What kind of a response, after all that, would say, (Freak said)

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

...that belief/faith in Him was all that was needed to attain eternal life & status as a child of God?

Yes or no will do....

A key differentiation that must be lost on Freak, first, you never take on scripture teaching in violation or contradiction of another, so his teaching does not contradict the John 8 teaching, and secondly is that they “received Him”, His teachings are a part of Him, thus implying they received His teachings as well, i.e. you must abide in His word/teachings, you keep the commandments for salvation

Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one [is] good but One, [that is], God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

so Freak’s verse does not alter the rest of Jesus’ teaching for salvation, that for the circumcision it was not faith alone, you had to have works plus faith.

That John 8 passage is pretty wild, the narrator=God, God said twice in a row, “they believed in Jesus”, “they believed Him”, and, He immediately pursued those who “believed in Him”, their faith in Jesus was NOT according to His teachings, they did not accept His teachings, so Jesus rejected them, Jesus condemned and shamed them, and they ended up wanting to kill the Savior and Lord. Yet when you ask if

those people who did not do the works of Abraham,
who believed in Jesus
but did not accept His teachings that required “abiding” in His word,
and elsewhere that you must keep the commandments to have eternal life,

were children of God or of the Devil, a freak might not know if that was faith alone, or the unambiguous requirement of works plus faith.

Freak says, I don’t know how to read the hearts of men, but I do know about God’s revealed truth. And then goes about rejecting the teaching of Christ for the Jews back then, suggesting that they did not have to do the works of Abraham they did not have to “abide” in His word, they just had to have faith and no works.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by 1Way
Acts9 12out ...that was one jammin post!You quote their verses and beliefs together, you show them how they believed in "God", but rejected His teachings, so Jesus rejects them for rejecting His word!

1Way,

Yes,Jeremy attempted to prove that those who the Lord said were sons of the devil had faith despite the clear words that they did not!

Here are the words which the Lord Jesus used to describe the men who Jeremy said "believed":

"...but you seek to kill Me,because my word has no place in you"(Jn.8:37).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

1Way,

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate your ability to summarize all of the points and come up with a clear, concise and consistent conclusion. I usually get caught up in the heat of the discussion and respond to each of the points. I really like how you have the ability to paint the big picture. With that said, time to revert to my old self...

Jerry said,

Those who believed the words of the Lord Jesus were also believing the words of the Father--"For He Whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God"(Jn.3:34).

So what did OT Saints need to do to believe? How were they saved without Christ's words?

It is not difficult to understand exactly what that "something" is the Jews must believe in order to be saved--"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God"(1Jn.5:1).

So what did the OT Saints need to do before Christ came? How could they believe "Jesus is the Christ" if He had not yet come?

John writes that "whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God."

Again, your model suggests that no OT Saint was saved...

Yes,but the Lord does not need to see outward demonstrations of our faith before He knows whether or not one has faith or not.

...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart"(1Sam.16:7).

The Jews who lived under the law were not saved by "faith" plus the "obedience of faith" (works).Instead,they were saved by "faith" alone.

Yes, He does know their hearts. Are you implying that an OT Saint could "believe in God in his heart" and not keep God's law? If they were saved by "faith alone," did they need to demonstarte that faith in any way? Why did God command Abraham to be circumcised? Could Abraham have refused, been cut off and still be saved? Why did God seek to kill Moses for failing to circumcise his son? What was the purpose of the law if it was by "faith apart from obedience?"

Here are Paul's words in regard to David,who lived under the law:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered"(Ro.4:5-7).

If it was always by "faith apart from obedience" to the law, why does Paul even use this example? The point is Jerry, Paul uses David as an example of one man, who was under the law, who deserved death for what he did. God graced him out and did not impute David's sins to David. The reasons for this are numerous, and show the true character of God. Another discussion I guess...

As I have already demonstrated,the Jews who received the Lord Jesus were "born of God" when they believed that Jesus is the promised Messiah.

So, Jerry's model suggests that one needed to receive the Lord Jesus and then they were born again (which doesn't take place until John 3). I'll ask again, how do OT Saints fit into this scheme? Secondly, you didn't answer the question. Do you need to believe that Jesus is the Messiah to be saved Jerry? Did the Jews who did believe Jesus was their Messiah need to believe in the death, burial and resurrection to be saved? What do you need to believe to be saved Jerry? Messiah, resurrection or both?

Here you do not even explain what the Lord Jesus is saying.Instead you run off to another place in the Scriptures to attempt to prove that what the Lord Jesus said is not true.

TYPICAL!!

Uh, I did explian what Christ was speaking of... What's typical is your blatent eisegesis and dishonesty with the Scriptures.

There were some who "believed in Him" but they were not yet born again.That is why the Scriptures speak of believing with one's "heart" and understanding with one's "heart".Here is an example of men who "believed in His Name" but who were not yet born again:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men"(Jn.2:23,24).

And it is no coincidence that the chapter that immediately follows is in regard to being "born again".

These men needed to "abide" in His word until they were indeed born of God.They had a "mental" knowledge of Who the Lord was but it was not yet rooted in their hearts.

How were OT Saints "born again" if the ability to be "born again" did not happen until John 3? Are you "born again" Jerry? Were you water baptized to be saved? I sure wasn't...

Again,the truth was not yet rooted in their hearts so they were not yet "born of God".

This statement was in response to what I said about those who "believed in Him" in John 8. You make no sense Jerry... Last time I checked, John 8 came after John 3???

Wait a second Lord!Jerry and Freak did say that "faith" is enough,but so did the Lord Jeus.Here are His words at another place:

"It is the Spirit that giveth life...the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

Wait a second Lord.Jeremy is saying that His words do not give life,but instead he teaches that it takes His Word plus "works"!

I ask again... What about OT Saints who did not have Christ's "life giving words?" They must not have life then, right?

But Peter says that in order to be "born again" one must believe the "gospel":

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.... But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you"(1Pet.1:23,25).

By your line of reasoning, no one could actually believe the gospel and be born again until after John 3, right? Peter says "believe the gospel to be born again," but according to Jerry, the ability to be "born again" does not come until John 3. Amazing...

Jeremy thinks that the Jews who lived at the time the Lord walked the earth had to have "faith" plus do "works" in order to be saved

Yes, Jeremy does. So does the Lord Jesus Christ. Jeremy is in pretty good company, no? Here's what Christ said Jerry...

Matthew 19
19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one [is] good but One, [that is], God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Matthew 24
24:13 He who endures to the end will be saved.

Jerry says faith alone is enough... Jesus Christ says keeping the commandments and enduring to the end, included with faith, will result in salvation / everlasting life. I know who I side with...

...despite the fact that Peter says that he was saved by "grace" just as the Gentiles:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved,just as they are"(Acts15:11).

Typical Jerry... Pull a verse out of it's context and make it a pre-text. The issues surrounding Acts 15 are numerous. Unfortunately, this is yet another discussion. Let me ask you a question Jerry... Is Peter's meaning in Acts 15:11 what you really believe it to be? Were Peter and the Jews he is speaking to saved the same way the Gentiles were? The Gentiles are now asked to believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ based on Paul's teaching for the body of Christ. Where does Peter believe / preach this "same" message? He doesn't...

Despite the fact that Peter says that he was saved by "grace" Jeremy still says that he was saved by "faith" plus "works".

You are attempting to make two different words mean the same thing Jerry. Peter and Paul agree that all are saved by grace. You attempt to equate grace with faith. As I've stated numerous times in the past, all men are saved by God's grace. God was gracious to send His Son to die for the sins of all men throughout all time. That's what Peter and Paul mean when they speak of being saved by grace. Secondly, man must have faith in God. Man must believe what God tells him in order to have God's grace, the blood of Christ, applied to his account. However, God many times changes the way He asks man to show that faith. God asked Noah to show his faith by building an ark. God asked Abram to believe that his seed would be like the stars of the sky. God asked Abraham to be circumcised. God asks the body of Christ to believe that Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead. Just as Noah, Abram / Abraham did not need to believe that Christ died on the cross, we do not need to build an ark, be circumcised or believe that our seed will be like the stars in the sky. God changes the way He asks man to show faith. The same shed blood of Christ (God's grace) saves all men throughout all time.

Next, I asked why Christ told them they would do the works of Abraham if they were Abraham's children. You reply,

Because those who believe in their hearts do attempt to be obedient to the faith.

So you agree they were trying to "do something" (keep the law by faith) to show their faith? Good, so do I...

Now, here's where your argument becomes even more illogical... You say,

But here is what the Lord said to these Pharisees:

"..but ye seek to kill Me,because My word hath no place in you"(Jn.8:37).

Uh yeah... Christ defended the truth that He was the promised Messiah. Many believed in Him. Christ spoke the truth in love to these men, and they became angry. Yes, those who believed in Him turn on Him just as quickly. The word of truth He spoke in love no longer has any place in them. They now seek to kill Him. Next, Jerry makes a fatal mistake.

This argumernt of yours is so weak,but this is about what I expected.It never says that these men who the Lord said that their father is the devil ever believed.Instead,we read that "many believed on Him"(v.30).

Many believed but not "all".

In regard to those whose father is the devil He said that His word had no place in them (v.37).

Actually, you responded in the way I expected. You believe that Christ is speaking to the many who did not believe in Him, and call them children of the devil. Looks like Jerry forgot to read verse 31...

John 8
30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

Read it again Jerry... Christ is speaking to those who believed in Him. Those who believed in Him turn on Him when He tells them that "the truth will set them free." This is a serious problem for you Jerry. Here, we have a group of men who believe in Jesus (after John 3 no doubt). Jesus addresses them, and tells them the truth. Jesus tells them that they would do the works of Abraham if Abraham was indeed their father. They turn on Him and seek to kill Him. Since they freely rejected Him, they lost their salvation and are now children of the devil.

What "gives" is your mistaken view that they ever believed in Him in the first place.You attempt to make an argument based on the false premise that they actually believed in Him despite the Lord's own words that His word had no place in them!

I must belabor this point to show you how wrong you are Jerry. You say my premise is false? Deal with verse 31 then. Christ is speaking to those who believed in Him. Why doesn't His word have place in them? They turned on Him and rejected Him after they had believed in Him.

And that about sums up your arguments.You attempt to prove that the Lord Jesus never said that "faith" was sufficent for salvation,despite the fact that He said:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

Again, I ask, faith in what? His words? What words? Did they have to "do" anything to show faith? If not, why did Christ say, "Keep the commandments," and "He who endures to the end will be saved?"

You attempt to use the Pharisees of an example of men who believed,even though the Lord Jesus Himself said that His word had no place in them!

Unfortunately for you Jerry, Christ is speaking to "those who believed in Him" (John 8:31), not the scribes and Pharisees he bashed in the beginning of the chapter. It's ok to admit that you're wrong Jerry... Then you address 1Way and say,

Yes,Jeremy attempted to prove that those who the Lord said were sons of the devil had faith despite the clear words that they did not!

Here are the words which the Lord Jesus used to describe the men who Jeremy said "believed":

"...but you seek to kill Me,because my word has no place in you"(Jn.8:37).

Still belaboring... The "clear words that they did not" have faith? Then what does John 8:31 mean Jerry? Did Christ speak to those who did not believe in Him even though John 8:30, 31 says they did believe?

In Christ,

--Jeremy Finkenbinder

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
So what did OT Saints need to do to believe? How were they saved without Christ's words?

The OT saints needed to "believe God" just as Abraham did and just as we do.And the revelation which they believed in order to be born again was their Holy Scriptures.This is what the Lord Jesus told the unbelieving Jews:

"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"(Jn.5:46,47).

The Jews who believed the OT Scriptures were saved.

When the rich man ended up in hades after he died,he wanted to warn his brothers so they would not also end up in "this place of torment"(Lk.16:28).But Abraham told them:

"They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead"(Lk.16:39-31).

The Jews who believed the OT Scriptures were saved because they "believed God",just as Abraham was:

"Abraham believed God,and it was counted to him for righteousness"(Ro.4:3).

And that is why Paul can say that "a man" is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law:

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith"(Ro.3:28-30).

Again, your model suggests that no OT Saint was saved...

The Scriptures reveal that the OT saints were not only saved,but they also enjoyed eternal security:

"For the LORD loveth justice, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever"(Ps.37:28).

Yes, He does know their hearts. Are you implying that an OT Saint could "believe in God in his heart" and not keep God's law?

The Jews who believed in their heart would attempt to kep the law.But it was their "faith" that saved them and not their "obedience of faith".

If they were saved by "faith alone," did they need to demonstarte that faith in any way?

For the same reason that we are to demonstrate our faith by keeping ourselves holy--because it is a part of our "service"(Ro.12:1).

Why did God command Abraham to be circumcised? Could Abraham have refused, been cut off and still be saved?

Paul reveals that Abraham was justified by God before he was ever circumcised (Ro.4:9-11).And since Abraham had true faith he got circumcised because the Lord told him to--the obedience of faith.

And since Abraham was clearly an OT saint,he was preserved forever.

What was the purpose of the law if it was by "faith apart from obedience?"

Here are Paul's words:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin"(Ro.3:20).

The law was given so that the Jews would know that they were sinners and in need of a Savior to save them from their sins.

If it was always by "faith apart from obedience" to the law, why does Paul even use this example?

Because the knowledge that the Jew was saved apart from the law and only by faith was not revealed until Paul:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed"(Gal.3:23).

Here Paul is speaking about the knowledge that salvation is by faith alone.

The point is Jerry, Paul uses David as an example of one man, who was under the law, who deserved death for what he did. God graced him out and did not impute David's sins to David. The reasons for this are numerous, and show the true character of God.

Yes,Paul used David as an example to demonstrate his previous words in the same discourse:

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law....Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith"(Ro.3:28-30).

Do you need to believe that Jesus is the Messiah to be saved Jerry?

No,the "gospel" which I believed when I was saved was the "gospel of the circumcision",which concerns the purpose of His death.

If you like you can read my initial post on the thread I started,"The 'Gospel of the Circumcision' and the 'Gospel of the Uncircumcision' " on the "General Theology" forum.

Did the Jews who did believe Jesus was their Messiah need to believe in the death, burial and resurrection to be saved?

Peter used His "death and resurrection" to prove that the Lord Jesus is indeed Israel's promised Messiah at Acts 2:24-39 to prove that the Lord Jesus is the Christ.So I would say that the belief in His death and resurrection is in integral part of the belief that Jesus is the promised Christ.

What do you need to believe to be saved Jerry? Messiah, resurrection or both?

The gospel that can be found at 1Cor.15:3-4.

Uh, I did explian what Christ was speaking of... What's typical is your blatent eisegesis and dishonesty with the Scriptures.

You could have fooled me.The Lord says that those who "believe" have already received eternal life and have alrteady passed from death unto life:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

Not a word about "works".It is about "faith" and nothing else.But you say that "works" must be performed plus "faith".

Would you mind giving me your interpretation of the meaning of the words of the Lord here?

How were OT Saints "born again" if the ability to be "born again" did not happen until John 3?

The ability to be "born again" did not happen until John 3,but instead that is when the fact was revealed.

Are you "born again" Jerry? Were you water baptized to be saved? I sure wasn't...

Yes,I am born again.And no,I was not saved by submitting to a rite of water baptism.I was "born of God" in the same way that Peter was--by the "word of God"(1Pet.1:23).

And that is why he could say that he was saved by "grace" just as were the Gentile believers:

"We believe that it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved,just as they are"(Acts15:11).

I will finish addressing the rest of your post later today.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jeremy,

Here is your answer to attempt to prove that the Jews were saved by "faith" plus "works:

So does the Lord Jesus Christ. Jeremy is in pretty good company, no? Here's what Christ said Jerry...

Matthew19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one [is] good but One, [that is], God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Matthew 24
24:13 He who endures to the end will be saved.

First,I will address Matthew 24:13.This is in regard to "physical" salvation as the "context" proves,and not about "eternal" salvation.Here are the verses which precede the verse you used,and it is clearly about "physical" death:

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake"(Mt.24:9).

It is obvious that the Jewish believers already had a life in Jesus Christ that would never end,so it is equally obvious that they did not have to "endure to the end" before they would be eternally saved.Here are John's words to the Jewish believer:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son"(1Jn.5:11).

The word translated "eternal" means "without end,never to cease,everlasting"["Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

So John is telling them that they already possess a life in Jesus Christ that will never end.

So we can see that they did not have to "endure to the end" in order to be saved.

Next,let us consider the whole "context" of the discourse of the Lord Jesus at Matthew 19--"But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

After the rich man went away,the Lord said that it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of GOd than it is for a camel to go though the eye of a needle.To that,His disciples asked:

"When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible"(Mt.19:25,26).

Paul says the same thing.If one wants to earn salvation by their "deeds" or "works" then they must keep the law (Ro.2:6-12).But in order to earn eternal life,then one must keep the law perfectly.And Paul says that by that way none are saved--"...for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles,that they are all under sin;As it is written,There are none righteous,no,not one"(Ro.3:9,10).

And that is why he writes:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight"(Ro.3:20).

But he goes on to describe a way that all belevers can be saved,and this way is "apart from the law":

"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;Even the righteousness of God which is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe"(Ro.3:21,22).

Read this carefully,Jeremy.This righteousness of God which is apart from the law comes upon all who believe,and that includes the Jewish believers.

Next,I quoted the following verse:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved,just as they are"(Acts15:11).

Here is your response:

Typical Jerry... Pull a verse out of it's context and make it a pre-text. The issues surrounding Acts 15 are numerous. Unfortunately, this is yet another discussion. Let me ask you a question Jerry... Is Peter's meaning in Acts 15:11 what you really believe it to be?

Yes,it it really says what it means.Peter says that he was saved by "grace" just as the Gentiles are saved by "grace".

And here are Paul's words in regard to this grace that the Jewish believers were saved:

" Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace"(Ro.11:5,6).

Even though Peter says he was saved by "grace" and Paul says that this grace whereby the "remnant" out of Israel was saved is not of "works" you still continue to insist that they were saved by "faith" plus "works"!

Were Peter and the Jews he is speaking to saved the same way the Gentiles were? The Gentiles are now asked to believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ based on Paul's teaching for the body of Christ. Where does Peter believe / preach this "same" message? He doesn't...

They were saved in the same way that the Gentiles were saved--by "grace" through "faith".Even though the message which they believed was different than the message which the Gentiles believed does not change the fact that it was by "grace" through "faith".

Our "faith" is compared to the faith of Abraham,even though what we believed is different from what Abraham believed:

"And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised"(Ro.4:12).

You are attempting to make two different words mean the same thing Jerry. Peter and Paul agree that all are saved by grace. You attempt to equate grace with faith.

Yes,and Paul himself equates "grace" with "faith":

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace..."(Ro.4:16).

Any other grounds of receiving eternal life besides by "faith" would be inconsistent with "grace".Any other way would be by "merit",and grace is "unmerited favor".

As I've stated numerous times in the past, all men are saved by God's grace.

But you obviously do not understand the simple principle that if it is of "works" then it is not of grace.You seem to think that one can be saved by "faith" plus "works" and at the same time be saved by "grace".

Here is what Paul says about that:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"(Ro.4:4,5).

How plain can it be before you will believe that "works" are inconsistent with "grace"?

More later...

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jeremy,

Earlier you said:

As Christ is speaking these words (establishing that He is the Messaih), many believe in Him.

John 8:30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

What does Jesus tell "those who believed in Him?" They needed to abide in His word. Wait! I thought "faith alone" was enough!

The reason that the Lord said that they must "abide" in His word was because they were not yet "born again".They were like the following Jews who "believed in Him" because of the miracles which he did:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men"(Jn.2:23,24).

They were not yet "born again" or else the Lord Jsus would indeed commit Himself to them.

And those who the Lord refers to at John 8:30 "believed on Him" but they too were not yet "His disciples" because the Lord says that they must continue in His word before He will consider that they are His disciples.And they did not "continue" in His word because they questioned what He said about being "servants of sin".

Because of this the Lord tells them,"...but ye seek to kill Me,because My word has no place in you"[/i](Jn.8:37).

They did not "continue in His word" so therefore they were never saved to begin with and the Lord never considered them His disciples.

Now, what happens to these Jews who recently "believed" in Him?

They were never saved to begin with and because of their unbelief they will die in their sins unless at some point in time they change their mind.

Now they seek to kill Him? I thought they just "believed / had faith" in Him and that was enough?

The "belief" that they had was not from the heart:

"For with the heart man believes into righteousness"(Ro.10:10).

These men are like those who are said to be "his disciples" who were offended at His teaching and "went back and walked no more with Him"(Jn.6:66).They were never "born again" or else they would have never left Him:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all were not of us"(1Jn.2:19).

Wait a second Lord! Jerry and Freak say that "faith" is enough! Why are you telling them that if they were of Abraham, they would do the works of Abraham?

If they had true "faith" then they would indeed do the works of Abraham.But it would be their "faith" that saved them and not their "works".

Ten verses ago, these guys "believed" in Jesus. Now they seek to kill Him? What gives Jerry / Freak?

They did not continue in His word and they were never born again.

They even claim to believe in God and have Abraham as their father (Remember, Jerry said "faith in Him who sent Jesus" was enough).

As I said before,a mental assent to the revelation of God is not enough to be born again.The truth must be rooted in the heart.

These guys "believed" in Jesus in verse 30. Now, Christ tells them they are of their father the devil. They do not believe Him. They are not of God (even though they said they were). The chapter continues with these "believers" challenging Christ. He goes on to tell them that He is God (v 58). What do these believers do? They take up stones to kill Him (v 59).

Again,these verses demonstrate the difference between believing something with the heart and and having only a mental knowledge of the truth.Those who "believed on Him" because of the miracles which they saw Him do were never saved in the first place,or else the Lord Jesus would commit Himself to them.

God asks man to show that faith in different ways.

Yes,the Paul speaks of the "obedience of the faith" in regard to those in the BOdy of Christ (Ro.1:5).And we are to keep ourselves "holy".But that is not a condition of "salvation" but instead it is our "reasonable service":

"...that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice,holy,acceptable unto God,which is your reasonable service"(Ro.12:1).

And the Jews were also to keep themselves holy because that as a part of their "service":

"That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life"(Lk.1:74,75).

Those who believe may not receive rewards if our "service" comes up short,but we will not lose our salvation:

"Every man's work shall be made manifest... If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire"(1Cor.3:13-15).

Jeremy,none of these verses you provided even hints at the idea that the Jews were saved by "faith" plus "works".

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Jerry,

Where do I start? I took some time and read your comments in the "circumcision / uncircumcision" thread. What I find interesting is I agree with most of your points raised there. I think you miss a few key points to make your argument rock solid. What I find more interesting is that we are both mid-Acts, but seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum on the issues raised in this thread. With that said, I want to rewind a bit, and give an overview of what I'm trying to say. One quick point, however... In the three posts above, I find it interesting that the majority of passages you use to show "justification apart from works" come from Paul's epistles. There is a reason for this...

Jerry, this will not be a comprehensive overview due to lack of time and space. The points I raise can be substantiated with Scripture, but I hope they will be common knowledge, due to our agreement with the mid-Acts view. If there is something that you disagree with, please point it out, and I will support with Scripture.

I believe my position (Acts 9, 12 Out) is the best systematic / apologetic position. With that said, here we go... The primary point I would like to focus on is threefold.

1. God is Gracious to provide the only sacrifice powerful enough to take away the sins of the world throughout all time.
2. Man must have faith in God, and believe whatever God asks him to believe (ie - Build an ark, be circumcised, believe in the death, burial and resurrection).
3. God changes the way He deals with man (Dispensationalism) and changes the way He asks man to show faith.

I refer the to the above as the "method" of salvation. Now, we must distinguish the "means" of salvation differently. The "means" of salvation is always the blood of Christ. The blood of Christ applied to an individual's account is the only way to salvation. Now, we must ask, how does one have the blood of Christ accounted to their account? This is where the "method" comes in. If a person "does" whatever God asks them to do, then God applies the blood of Christ to them, and they are saved. This is true even in this dispensation Jerry. God asks us to believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Even we, as the body of Christ, have to "show" something to have the blood of Christ credited to our account. We must "show" that we believe that almost 2,000 years ago, Jesus Christ died on a cross for our sins and that He was raised from the dead. Now, Jerry, we agree that this "showing of faith" has not always been the same.

You have rightly argued elsewhere that the OT Saints did not believe that Jesus died for them or was raised from the dead (because He had not yet come). What did they "do" to have the future blood of Christ applied to them? By faith, they believed what God told them. By faith, they practiced Judaism. By faith, they attempted to keep the law. By faith, they ate certain foods deemed clean by God. By faith, they offered the appropriate sacrifices. By faith, they were circumcised. By faith, they were baptized. By faith, they believed in a future (or present) Messiah. By faith, they endured to the end. By faith, they forgave to be forgiven. The list goes on and on Jerry. The examples of these points are numerous.

The point is Jerry, when you quote Christ's words that imply "faith alone" is enough, you are partly right. The question that must be answered is, "Faith in what?" You rightly note "Faith in God or faith in Christ." I believe that "faith in God / Christ" implies following whatever God / Christ asks man to do. For example Jerry, I hope you would agree that salvation for the body of Christ is attained by belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. I have to ask, what if a person "believes in God," but does not believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ? Could that person be saved Jerry? Orthodox Jews today are in that position. They believe in the God of Israel as revealed in the OT. They are waiting for their promised Messiah, but reject Jesus Christ. Based on their "faith alone" in God, are they saved even though they reject Jesus Christ as their Savior? I don't think so either Jerry... They are also required to believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ to be saved.

One key point that I hope you agree with is a majority of the Bible is addressed specifically to the nation of Israel. God continually accepts / rejects Israel. After the death of His Son, He gives them yet another chance (Acts 1-3). For some reason, the "straw that finally broke the camel's back" occurred at the stoning of Stephen. In Acts 7, Christ is shown "standing" at the right hand of the Father. I think this is significant as this is the only time in the NT where Christ is shown "standing" at the right hand of the Father. Every other reference shows Christ "seated" at the right hand of the Father. What does this imply? Many times, God is shown "standing" to judge the nation of Israel in the OT. I believe this is where God / Christ judges Israel and sets them aside as His special, chosen people. Shortly after this event, God raises up the Apostle Paul and gives him a new Dispensation which is shown by a new "method" of salvation. Up to this point, ethnic Jews and Gentiles needed to practice Judaism to show their faith. That's how Isarel and proselytes were credited the blood of Christ. They did what God asked them to do. At that time, they were still required to "show" faith in a physical way.

After Paul's conversion, we see that there is "no Jew nor Greek, nor slave nor free, nor male nor female" in the body of Christ. God again changes the way He deals with man. Now, instead of Judaism (there is no longer Jew nor Greek, etc), God asks man to show faith by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is the "method" of salvation today Jerry. This is why the majority of your "faith alone" passages come from Paul. In addition, Abram / Abraham is called the father of us all in Romans 4. This is significant because the "gospel of the circumcision" is based in Genesis 17 where God adds the covenant of circumcision for Israel. Paul, in Romans 4, tells us that his "gospel of the uncircumcision" is based in Genesis 15:6 where Abram "believed" what God told him (that his seed would be like the stars of the sky), apart from any outward works. Paul's point is that the uncircumcision gospel is based in Abram's "belief" before being circumcised. What must be noted is that Abram still had to "do" something. Abram "believed" God, and it (his belief in what God told him) was accounted to him for righteousness.

In Genesis 16, Abram attempts to fulfill the promise with a flesh trip. Abram has sex with Hagar. Ishmael is not God's promised son, but is the result of a flesh trip. Because of Abram's disobedience, he falls out of favor with God. This is why God adds the covenant of circumcision in Genesis 17, to show "no confidence in the flesh." When Abraham submitted to the "cutting off of his flesh," God again accounted him righteous and fulfilled His promise (Isaac) through Abraham and Sarah who were both sexually dead. The "gospel of the circumcision" is based on a physical covenant. Abraham needed to "do" a physical act (be circumcised) to show that He did indeed have faith in God in his heart. There is no way that Abraham could have rejected the circumcision and still have the future blood of Christ credited to him. There is no way Abraham could have rejected circumcision and had God fulfill the promise (Isaac). In that same way, we cannot simply "believe in God" and reject the death buruial and resurrection. Even the body of Christ must "do" something to be saved. Again Jerry, it's not the "doing" that saves, but rather the "doing" is an expression of faith in the way that God asks us to show faith. When we show that we have faith, God applies the blood of Christ to us and God saves us.

As I read back Jerry, I hope this whole thing was a misunderstanding. I hope you don't think we (Hill, Enyart, et al) teach that physical works ever saved anyone. We have always maintained that faith in God saves, but God always asks man to exercise that faith in different ways. For example, the water on the day of Pentecost was not in any way "magical" and did not physically wash away sin. However, God commanded the nation of Israel to show faith by being water baptized. After they showed they had faith in God by being water baptized, God gave them the gift of the Holy Spirit, and credited the blood of Christ to their account. Believers on the day of Pentecost could not simply "have faith in God" and reject Peter's baptism. Submission to water baptism at Pentecost was "showing faith in God." As I'm sure you'll agree Jerry, God does not ask the body of Christ to show faith by being water baptized. God asks the body of Christ to show faith by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Again, the "method" changes. The "means" (blood of Christ) is always the same.

In Christ, --Jeremy Finkenbinder

 

[drbrumley]

Greetings and blessings Jeremy,

I apologize for the delay, but have been tied up as of late with work and such that I didn't get a chance to welcome you to this thread. I for one am glad you made it.

Now to continue the business at hand......

In Christ,
DRBrumley

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

No problem!

Glad you made it back!

 

[drbrumley]

Outstanding post Jeremy. Seems you have a gift that I have not attained as of yet and that is eloquence in your posts. You convey your points very well. There is nothing I can add to drive the point home any further than what you just did. Outstanding!

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Thanks dr... Please let me know if you do have any issues because, as you know, "iron sharpens iron..."

God Bless brother,

--Jeremy

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jeremy,

You say:

I hope you don't think we (Hill, Enyart, et al) teach that physical works ever saved anyone.

You teach that the Jews were required to do "works" in order to be saved,so it is obvious that you are indeed teaching that their physical works were instrumental in their salvation.

It makes no sense whatsoever to say that "works" were necessary for salvation and then to turn around and say that works never saved anyone.

We have always maintained that faith in God saves, but God always asks man to exercise that faith in different ways.

You seem to confuse "faith" with the "obedience of faith".Both the circumcision and the uncircumcision are justified before God by "faith" and not by the "obedience of faith":

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law"(Ro.3:28).

According to you the Jews were saved by "faith" and by "obedience of faith".And the "obedience of faith" for the Jews was to keep the law.But Paul says that the believer is justified by "faith" apart from the "obedience of faith".

The Lord does not need to see outward demonstrations by man in order to know whether or not he has "faith":

"...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart"(1Sam.16:7).

So the Lord does not need to see any "works" in order to know whether or not a man has faith.The Lord has a reason why he tells men to obey Him and it is not in order to know whether or not one has faith or not.

And the "obedience" that is required from man is in regard to our "service" for Him.For instance,Paul tells us,""let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God"(2Cor.7:1).

For us this is in regard to the "obedience of faith",but it is not in regard to salvation at all,but instead it is in regard to our "service":

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service"(Ro.12:1).

And "the law" was in regard to "serving" the Lord also.If the Jews kept the law then they would be a "holy nation" and a "kingdom of priests".The duty of a "priest" was always in regard to "service" for the Lord.

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation"(Ex.19:5,6).

The Jews were to obey the law and if they did then they would be serving God by glorfying Him in front of the whole world.This is their destiny:

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven"(Mt.5:14-16).

The "obedience of faith" of the Jews was in regard to "service" and not "salvation",just as it is for us.The Jews were to keep the law so that the whole world would see their "good works" and so that "all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else"(1Ki.8:60).

So the Lord has a reason why he tells man to "obey" Him,and that reason has nothing to do with "salvation" or demonstrating "faith".

Submission to water baptism at Pentecost was "showing faith in God."

Yes,but submitting to the rite of water baptism was not in regard to "salvation" but in regard to "service".I will start a thread on the "General Theology" forum which demonstrates this truth.

I believe my position (Acts 9, 12 Out) is the best systematic / apologetic position.

I have addressed this question as to whether or not the Twelve were in the Body of Christ on a thread I started on the "Dispensational" forum.Please read my initial post on that thread and then you are free to make any comments which you have which you think demonstrates that what I say is in error.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Jerry,

I am short of time right now, and will respond in full later. One quick question... Can a person have "faith" in God, but reject the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and still be saved? Again, I point you to the Orthodox Jew who "has faith in" the God of Israel, but rejects Jesus Christ as his Savior. If that Jew has "faith" in God alone, can he be saved?

--Jeremy

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*

Jerry,

I am short of time right now, and will respond in full later. One quick question... Can a person have "faith" in God, but reject the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and still be saved? Again, I point you to the Orthodox Jew who "has faith in" the God of Israel, but rejects Jesus Christ as his Savior. If that Jew has "faith" in God alone, can he be saved?

--Jeremy

Jesus said:

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

God's Word says:

It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. He is
" 'the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone. Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
Can a person have "faith" in God, but reject the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and still be saved?

Jeremy,

If a person has true "faith" in God then he will believe the truth concerning the death,burial and resurrection of of Jesus Christ.He will also believe the truth concerning the purpose of His death--"when we were enemies,we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son"(Ro.5:10).

But if he refuses to believe this message which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit then it is evident that he never really had true faith to begin with.He was never saved and by resisting the Holy Spirit he remains unsaved.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[1Way]

Here’s some biblical food for thought.

Mt 16:20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ. 21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.

Mr 8:29 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said to Him, "You are the Christ." 30 Then He strictly warned them that they should tell no one about Him. 31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Lu 9:18 And it happened, as He was alone praying, [that] His disciples joined Him, and He asked them, saying, "Who do the crowds say that I am?" 19 So they answered and said, "John the Baptist, but some say Elijah; and others say that one of the old prophets has risen again." 20 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said, "The Christ of God." 21 And He strictly warned and commanded them to tell this to no one, 22 saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day."

Jesus did NOT teach the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ prior to His resurection, He taught the message of the kingdom promised, offered, and rejected. Prior to Christ’s resurrection, faith in the resurrection of Christ was a forbidden message.

I hope that was where Jeremy was going with all that. But I am not quite sure, especially about the “rejecting” the death burial and resurrection bit, but certainly these passages directly address the question to, and answer from, Jerry.

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

1Way,

Yes, that's excatly where I was going. I'm trying to show Jerry that "salvation" is not something simplistic like, "Faith alone..." It seems that Jerry will have to concede that God has indeed changed the way He deals with man. Jerry must concede that God asks man to believe different "things" throughout time. I know Jerry does not believe that OT Saints needed to believe in a future death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, so this presents a bit of a dilemma. Jerry wants us to believe that "faith alone" is enough, but must concede that God asks man to have "faith alone" in different things...

--Jeremy