A Challenge for the followers of Bob Enyart
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
drbrumley
Well-known member
I welcome Jerry to ask questions. I welcome you also Freak. But when all you do is talk alot of crap as you do and profess to be the end all be all of what the bible is saying and you being so prone to take a majority opinion and make the claim is truth, why bother having a sincere thought provoking dialouge with you?
Freak
New member
What did Jesus tell those under the Old Covenant to do?
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?
1Way
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DrBrumley - You said
make it "hard" to like Freak? ... Being a jerk in about every way possible is not "making it hard to like him". It's obvious to me that he wants us to feel toward him like he does towards us. Extreme unjustified animosity. I might have said, you make it hard to listen to you and respect what you are saying.
You mean God was serious and trustworthy when He said ...
I asked Jerry to respond to this example of God "requiring works" for everlasting life, and well, for some reason he just wont deal with it. So be it, so it is.
make it "hard" to like Freak? ... Being a jerk in about every way possible is not "making it hard to like him". It's obvious to me that he wants us to feel toward him like he does towards us. Extreme unjustified animosity. I might have said, you make it hard to listen to you and respect what you are saying.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
DRBrumley,
I never ever insinuated that anyone followed Bob Enyart instead of the Lord Jesus.
You are reading something into my comments that are not there.Your apology is accepted.
They had many laws,but the law was never given as a way whereby the Jews could justify themselves before God:
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin"(Ro.3:20).
Not to their eternal destruction.Those who had "faith" were preserved forever.This is what the OT Scriptures say about the OT saints:
"For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever"(Ps.37:28).
That is why Paul could say this about a "murderer",king David:
"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin"(Ro.4:6-8).
As Freak has clearly demonstrated,the Lord Jesus Himself told the Jews that those who believed already possessed a life that would never end and were already passed from death unto life:
"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).
In His grace,--Jerry
1Way
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The Lord said, obey the commandments in answer to the question, what must I do to have eternal life. Keeping the commandments included love and faith in God and in Him only, so all your faith without works teachings do not invalidate Christ's teaching that fully lines up with all of scripture for those in the dispensation of Law.
Keeping the commandments was not a suggestion from God, it was do them, or be cut off from being a part of His people, do them or die in your sin guilt.
Keeping the commandments was not a suggestion from God, it was do them, or be cut off from being a part of His people, do them or die in your sin guilt.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I did deal with it.There are some under the illusion that being a member of the nation of Israel equated with being saved,and being cut off from Israel is the same thing as losing eternal life.
THey also believe that "physical" death is the same as losing "eternal" life,but what can be said about the following verse?:
"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus"(1Cor.5:5).
In His grace,--Jerry
Freak
New member
Why have you lied to the Holy Spirit in such a obvious manner?
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
Huh??? What have you been smoking?
Jesus told those under the Old Covenant the following:
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?
1Way
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- Nu 15:30 ‘But the person who does [anything] presumptuously, [whether he is] native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 ‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; HIS GUILT SHALL BE UPON HIM.’" 32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, . 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.
You think that is not a picture of redemption and not damnation? Faith alone and not the requirement of works or else be damned? Jerry, get a bit more realistic please. The guy died in his sins, he was damned because he did not keep the Sabbath law, his faith was not even brought up. Works were required to stay right with God.
1Way
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I tell you the truth, I did not lie.
- Matthew 19:16-22
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' " 20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
Freak
New member
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
The Lord Jesus hates those like yourself, 1Way who attempt to distort His message that He clearly presented:
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
geoff
New member
Hmm the author of Hebrews says it was by faith..
They are not made perfect apart from us (by another means) but by the same means.
Dwayne hasnt kept up with modern studies of Judaism - especially E P Sanders et all.
The idea of justification by law being the normal mode of OT salvation is like... way out of date... and incorrect.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Fact is,
Before I get full bore into this, I need to ask this question to Freak and Jerry.
Bob teaches that man in different times has been called upon to manifest his faith in different ways.
Freak and Jerry, did God tell Able, or Noah, or Abram, or Moses, or David to beleive the same message that Paul told the Philippian jailer: Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
But all these men beleived the message that God gave them and they were all saved on the basis of faith.
Your problem lies in the fact that you two cannot differeniate this. The only thing you two seem to looking at is Jesus had saved these people and thats the end of it. Let's ask Moses if this is true.
God COMMANDED Isreal to be circumsised. Moses decided that he wasn't going to do that. God was going to kill him had it not been for his wife. Perhaps the greatest person in Isreal's history decided to disobey God. Was Moses saved? He saw all the miracles and yet decided to disobey.
And another thought, When being saved in the Old Testament and the Gospels, it seems pretty clear that salvation is usually from physical enemies, disease, or death. When Peter cried,"Lord save me" (Matthew 14:30), he was not thinking about salvation from sin. Everything in the Old Covenant dealt with the physical side of salvation. You two are trying to spiritualize all the Old Covenant when it isnt warranted. Hence, your problem.
In Christ,
DRBrumley
A) Freak and Jerry, did God tell Able, or Noah, or Abram, or Moses, or David to beleive the same message that Paul told the Philippian jailer: Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Before I get full bore into this, I need to ask this question to Freak and Jerry.
Bob teaches that man in different times has been called upon to manifest his faith in different ways.
Freak and Jerry, did God tell Able, or Noah, or Abram, or Moses, or David to beleive the same message that Paul told the Philippian jailer: Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
But all these men beleived the message that God gave them and they were all saved on the basis of faith.
Your problem lies in the fact that you two cannot differeniate this. The only thing you two seem to looking at is Jesus had saved these people and thats the end of it. Let's ask Moses if this is true.
God COMMANDED Isreal to be circumsised. Moses decided that he wasn't going to do that. God was going to kill him had it not been for his wife. Perhaps the greatest person in Isreal's history decided to disobey God. Was Moses saved? He saw all the miracles and yet decided to disobey.
And another thought, When being saved in the Old Testament and the Gospels, it seems pretty clear that salvation is usually from physical enemies, disease, or death. When Peter cried,"Lord save me" (Matthew 14:30), he was not thinking about salvation from sin. Everything in the Old Covenant dealt with the physical side of salvation. You two are trying to spiritualize all the Old Covenant when it isnt warranted. Hence, your problem.
In Christ,
DRBrumley
A) Freak and Jerry, did God tell Able, or Noah, or Abram, or Moses, or David to beleive the same message that Paul told the Philippian jailer: Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
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Freak
New member
You're not very smart are you? You said:
"Everything in the Old Covenant dealt with the physical side of salvation."
What are you talking about? Jesus, when speaking to those under the Old Covenant, spoke of salvation in spiritual terms--eternal life, the forgiveness of sins, etc...
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?
God has always required faith in Him. Nothing has changed to attain salvation.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Freak,
When Moses said to the people of Isreal "Do not be afraid. Stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which He will accomplish for you today. For the Egyptians whom you see today, you shall see again no more forever.
Is this spiritual?
When Saul declared,
Then the elders of Jabesh said to him, "Hold off for seven days, that we may send messengers to all the territory of Israel. And then, if there is no one to save us, we will come out to you."
13But Saul said, "Not a man shall be put to death this day, for today the LORD has accomplished salvation in Israel."
Is this spiritual?
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Faith and works of faith are so closely identified that we may say that men in the past dispensations could NOT have been saved apart from the works which God commanded, since the works were the manifestation of their faith. Yet it was not the works by themselves which saved them, but their faith in God.
Romans 3:21, 22 shows the distinction between the obtaining of righteousness in this dispensation as compared to the former dispensation. In the Old Testament there was righteousness of God in association with the law, but Paul says, NOW the righteousness of God APART FROM THE LAW is manifested.
In this dispensation, God does not say, "Beleive and offer sacrifices, Beleive and be baptized, Beleive and be circumsized, Beleive and do anything else in order to be saved." Faith NOW is in the finished work of Christ. Faith accepts the fact that Christ has done all of the work necessary for salvation, and it simply rests in the completed work.
The beleivers life should have good works, but these arethe result of salvation and not a cause of it.
In Christ,
DRBrumley
When Moses said to the people of Isreal "Do not be afraid. Stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which He will accomplish for you today. For the Egyptians whom you see today, you shall see again no more forever.
Is this spiritual?
When Saul declared,
Then the elders of Jabesh said to him, "Hold off for seven days, that we may send messengers to all the territory of Israel. And then, if there is no one to save us, we will come out to you."
13But Saul said, "Not a man shall be put to death this day, for today the LORD has accomplished salvation in Israel."
Is this spiritual?
----------------------------------------
Faith and works of faith are so closely identified that we may say that men in the past dispensations could NOT have been saved apart from the works which God commanded, since the works were the manifestation of their faith. Yet it was not the works by themselves which saved them, but their faith in God.
Romans 3:21, 22 shows the distinction between the obtaining of righteousness in this dispensation as compared to the former dispensation. In the Old Testament there was righteousness of God in association with the law, but Paul says, NOW the righteousness of God APART FROM THE LAW is manifested.
In this dispensation, God does not say, "Beleive and offer sacrifices, Beleive and be baptized, Beleive and be circumsized, Beleive and do anything else in order to be saved." Faith NOW is in the finished work of Christ. Faith accepts the fact that Christ has done all of the work necessary for salvation, and it simply rests in the completed work.
The beleivers life should have good works, but these arethe result of salvation and not a cause of it.
In Christ,
DRBrumley
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
DRBrumbley,
All men are saved by grace through faith,and it is all made possible by the Cross.However,the revelation of God that man must believed has varied down through the ages.
And if it is of grace,it is not of works.And Peter said in no uncertain terms that he was saved by the grace of Jesus Christ just as the Gentiles are:
"We believe that it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved,just as they are"(Acts15:11).
What better proof is there than the words of the inspired Apostle Peter,a man himself who lived under the law?
And again,if it is of grace,then it is not of works.Peter was not saved by "faith" plus "works" and neither were any of the believing Jews.
In His grace,--Jerry