To call a zygote a "person" is ludicrous and borderline outrageous. From a scientific, medical, and rational standpoint it's almost insulting.
11-year-old Gang-Rape Victim: Should She Be Able To Legally Abort?
- Thread starter WizardofOz
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To call a zygote a "person" is ludicrous and borderline outrageous. From a scientific, medical, and rational standpoint it's almost insulting.
Have you read your Bible?
Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Psalms 127:3-5 - Lo, children [are] an heritage of the LORD: [and] the fruit of the womb [is his] reward. (Read More...)
Jeremiah 1:4-5 - Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, (Read More...)
Job 31:15 - Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?
Isaiah 49:5 - And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb [to be] his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Isaiah 44:24 - Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Exodus 21:22-25 - If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine]. (Read More...)
Psalms 127:3 - Lo, children [are] an heritage of the LORD: [and] the fruit of the womb [is his] reward.
Job 10:8-12 - Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me. (Read More...)
Exodus 23:25-26 - And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee. (Read More...)
Genesis 20:18 - For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife.
Romans 8:22 - For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Luke 1:44 - For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
Isaiah 49:1 - Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Isaiah 44:2 - Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
Galatians 1:15 - But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,
Hosea 9:14 - Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
Psalms 100:3 - Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [it is] he [that] hath made us, and not we ourselves; [we are] his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
Psalms 22:9-10 - But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother's breasts. (Read More...)
1 Samuel 1:1-28 - Now there was a certain man of Ramathaimzophim, of mount Ephraim, and his name [was] Elkanah, the son of Jeroham, the son of Elihu, the son of Tohu, the son of Zuph, an Ephrathite: (Read More...)
Exodus 20:13 - Thou shalt not kill.
Genesis 29:31 - And when the LORD saw that Leah [was] hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel [was] barren.
Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
1 Timothy 6:7-10 - For we brought nothing into [this] world, [and it is] certain we can carry nothing out. (Read More...)
Ephesians 6:1-4 - Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. (Read More...)
Luke 1:41-42 - And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: (Read More...)
Matthew 18:10 - Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Hosea 13:16 - Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Exodus 21:23 - And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exodus 21:22-24 - If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine]. (Read More...)
Exodus 21:22 - If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine].
Genesis 9:6 - Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Genesis 1:26-27 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Read More...)
James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Luke 1:31 - And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Amos 1:13 - Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of the children of Ammon, and for four, I will not turn away [the punishment] thereof; because they have ripped up the women with child of Gilead, that they might enlarge their border:
Hosea 9:16 - Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay [even] the beloved [fruit] of their womb.
Jeremiah 20:17 - Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb [to be] always great [with me].
Isaiah 13:18 - [Their] bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
Job 3:16 - Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants [which] never saw light.
Job 3:3 - Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night [in which] it was said, There is a man child conceived.
2 Kings 8:12 - And Hazael said, Why weepeth my lord? And he answered, Because I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel: their strong holds wilt thou set on fire, and their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child.
Deuteronomy 27:25 - Cursed [be] he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Exodus 23:7 - Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
gcthomas
New member
Iwannaknow: many of those quotes were irrelevant. Couldn't you have trimmed your cut'n'paste to one that relate to the point?
And none talk about giving personhood to day old foetuses. One mentions punishments from causing miscarriage, but doesn't call it murder. Why is that?
Got any specific quotes for me?
And none talk about giving personhood to day old foetuses. One mentions punishments from causing miscarriage, but doesn't call it murder. Why is that?
Got any specific quotes for me?
I don't. For instance a human thumb is not a person.
A living being that is a human is a person.
There is absolutely no good reason for that.
A person is a person, no matter how small.
There are a lot of things the Bible doesn't discuss in general. So what?
Are not "day old fetuses" alive in the womb? If not, then by your logic, there would be nothing to grow in the womb. It doesn't matter if they're seconds or minutes old in the womb. Once they are conceived...they are alive and growing from that seed. You can't say a seed is not a seed because it's not fully grown and formed yet. Neither can you say that same seed isn't a child because it doesn't yet resemble what you call a child.
Life is life, it either exists or it doesn't. We all come from those "day old fetuses" now don't we. If the life of that fetus is ended...that life is also ended. You can't say just because that life is extinguished and killed that it didn't exist and wasn't human. It was a human seed that had life in it, to say it isn't would be a lie.
There's a difference between life and personhood.
gcthomas
New member
So you don't want to offer a reason or rationally, then, only tautologies? I know the bible doesn't discuss it, but you are an anti abortion campaign zealot, are you not? Why hold your opinion so strongly if it is not a biblical one? Is your own opinion so weak you can't give a reason?
Did God think so when He chose Jacob over Esau from the womb? God calls them "children and people" from the womb.
Gensis 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the Lord. 23 And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Well I'm an atheist so this kind of argument is no kind of argument at all.
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
I'm pretty sure Dr. Paul (MD noted because its relevant here) says that life does in fact begin at conception, which would define a zygote as being a person, but I'm pretty sure he says the laws should apply from implantation. Considering 75% of conceptions don't implant anyway, I think its pretty hard to enforce at that point even if you wanted to. I'd settle for declaring any form of deliberate abortion after implantation as homicide, and leaving things like birth control pills (Which may or may not cause early abortion, but in most cases do not) between the individual and God.
For the record, I agree with your stance (At least for the most part... something gives me the feeling you would actually try to outlaw birth control pills, which I don't agree with) but... if a zygote is a person, and most zygotes do not implant....
I assume you would say a zygote has a soul? If so, where does a zygote that dies go? If you say heaven, how is the path narrow?
You're debating Christians on this issue. What sort of argument did you expect?
Newbie, I know exactly where I am and who I'm talking to. It's possible to discuss abortion without relying solely on religious arguments. If you can do that, great. If not, don't respond to an atheist's comments with a verse and expect that to constitute a debate.
gcthomas
New member
Can you feel day old foetuses kicking then? They've got no legs. Or anything else functional for that matter.
This passage was obviously written about a second or third trimester pregnancy, so it is not relevant, and in any case doesn't award personhood.
So a functional body is the only life worth calling *life or human*? If one isn't fully formed at birth and can not function, do you consider them alive and human? Is the seed not a body that hasn't yet been fully formed?
No, its not irrational to believe what doctors say and to believe that being raped by 20 men and beaten by them for the length of time it would take 20 men to do it, would leave her poor little 11 year old body in no state to sustain anything except medical care to heal HER.
You know that child that is already here.
Call me whatever you want. I really don't care.
And make sure if you ever have an ectopic pregnancy to carry it till it kills you both or your just as a much a hypocrite as you want to call me.
A battered bruised body from 20 animals and you want her to suffer some more. Youre sick.
gcthomas
New member
A non functioning baby cannot be a person, in the same way as a recently non function elderly person has died.
And how can a 'seed' be a body when it hasn't got a body?
We finally found something on which we completely agree.
I didn't call you anything, but rather made the observation that your position IS pro-abortion. This is about the lives of innocent, unborn babies, however, so noted that you really don't care.
:chuckle: I have no worries, but thanks so much for your well wishes, angel.
So by your standard, unborn babies = suffering. That is exactly what almost every pro-abortion advocate has to say about the unborn.
No, you are just hysterical because you realize that you have been exposed as not being an advocate for unborn babies.
Of course. For instance we all know you're alive, but you're not a person; you're scum.
If you're really that stupid that you didn't understand my reason then there is no point in trying to explain it to you. You're an idiot with no capability to understand the simplest things.
Naturally not implanting and taking a pill to insure it does not are not the same thing. One intentionally ends a life if that life is present. And all the pills do that if the life is present.
It goes to Paradise to await the stage of accountability.
Right, because that's what matters.
You're an idiot.