10 things I'm right about, whether you agree or not.

[noguru]

A fellow named Wendell Miller once wrote about various forms of forgiveness for Sin by God that went something like this:

Initial Judicial Forgiveness
Time: at the moment of belief
Nature: conditioned on faith alone
Sins involved: all previous sins committed before justification
Result: eternal life

Initial Fellowship Forgiveness
Time: at the moment of belief
Nature: removal of estrangement
Sins involved: all previous sins committed before justification
Result: fellowship with God begun (1 John 1:7)

Repetitive Judicial Forgiveness
Time: at the moment a Christian sins
Means: Jesus' work as the believer's Advocate
Nature: immediate and unconditional
Sins involved: sins committed in a believer's life

Repetitive Fellowship Forgiveness
Time: when a Christian confesses his sin
Means: Jesus' ministry as the believer's High Priest
Nature: conditioned on confession
Result: fellowship with God restored (1 John 1:9)

I wonder how others view this approach?

This is similar to how I view it.

 

[Mystery]

But in another thread you claimed that you were so holy when at a Hotel with your wife.

What???

 

[Mystery]

A fellow named Wendell Miller once wrote about various forms of forgiveness for Sin by God that went something like this:
:blabla:
I wonder how others view this approach?

Unbelievers believe it. Believers reject it.

 

[noguru]

Unbelievers believe it. Believers reject it.

What???

 

[noguru]

What???

In another thread, the one about Gideons Bible being replaced by sex kits in some Hotels, you claimed that in Hotels you only behave in the holiest of manners. You claimed that using condoms, even if it was with your wife, was perveted and not holy. What do you mean by "holy" in regard to one's behavior? Does the law have anything to do with how we gauge holiness?

One thing is for sure. You certainly are very mysterious, and are quite adept at sharing your mystery.

 

[Mystery]

One should be careful lest one look like an antinomian.

That is what YOU are. You, like many others, are against the Law for the reason that God gave the Law.

"Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:19-26

YOU refuse to die to the Law, that you might live to God.

"Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet." But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead." Romans 7:4-8

YOUR god is the Law, and you worship the Law, rather than Jesus. YOU want others to obey the Law, so that you can boast in their flesh.

"Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised, that they may boast in your flesh. But may it never be that I should boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Galatians 6:12-14

"But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted." 1 Timothy 1:5-11

YOU, godrulz, are AGAINST the Law for the reason that God made it. YOU are against the gospel of Jesus Christ where men are released from the Law to serve God in the Spirit and not in the flesh. YOU are contrary to ALL that I have just quoted from the God of the bible whom YOU oppose and are AGAINST. YOU are an enemy of Christ. YOU are an enemy of the gospel. YOU are an enemy of the purpose of the Law. YOU are an antinomian.

 

[Mystery]

In another thread, the one about Gideons Bible being replaced by sex kits in some Hotels, you claimed that in Hotels you only behave in the holiest of manners. You claimed that using condoms, even if it was with your wife, was perveted and not holy.

Never said that. Your reading comprehension skills need a great deal of work.

Context

What I said was, is that using a condom is perverted. Not using one does not make anyone "holy". We are holy because Christ is holy, and He made us that way.

Does the law have anything to do with how we gauge holiness?

No.

 

[noguru]

Never said that. Your reading comprehension skills need a great deal of work.

Context

OK, I stand corrected.

What I said was, is that using a condom is perverted. Not using one does not make anyone "holy". We are holy because Christ is holy, and He made us that way.

No.

So can one partake in perveted behavior and still be holy? How do you gauge what is perveted?

 

[Mystery]

So can one partake in perveted behavior and still be holy?

Yes, of course. Why would you want to? Do you think that someone who is in Christ becomes unrighteous when they don't do it right? If that was true, then faith in Christ would be meaningless, and so would the cross.

How do you gauge what is perveted?

I think the post I linked gives evidence of that. Just apply it to other areas of life. Whom are you serving when you do things. Self? or God? Where is your dependence? Whom do you trust? Who or what do you worship?

 

[noguru]

Yes, of course. Why would you want to?

When someone consciously does something that they know is wrong, they are in effect turning away from God. Think of it as a lapse of reason, if only momentary. Partaking in something one considers perveted is a lapse.

Do you think that someone who is in Christ becomes unrighteous when they don't do it right?

No, but if they make a conscious decision to do something they know is wrong they are turning away from God.

If that was true, then faith in Christ would be meaningless, and so would the cross.

Faith in Christ is not meaningless it is how we find atonement from God, and it is how find forgiveness for others.

I think the post I linked gives evidence of that. Just apply it to other areas of life. Whom are you serving when you do things. Self? or God? Where is your dependence? Whom do you trust? Who or what do you worship?

I serve God. I depend on Jesus to enlighten me. I find enlightenment from Jesus when I humble myself as a servant like He did.

You are trying to be the master.

 

[Mystery]

When someone consciously does something that they know is wrong, they are in effect turning away from God.

Who told you that garbage?

I think you need a clearer revelation of just how "wrong" you are to begin with. Based on your behavior, everything you do falls short of God, and if God examines you based on behavior, then you would never be anywhere near God.

No, but if they make a conscious decision to do something they know is wrong they are turning away from God.

Absolutely false.

Faith in Christ is not meaningless it is how we find atonement from God, and it is how find forgiveness for others.

Again, your reading skills are lacking.

I serve God. I depend on Jesus to enlighten me. I find enlightenment from Jesus when I humble myself as a servant like He did.

"Enlighten" you? What does that mean? Are you a Unitarian? Christianity is not a self-improvement program. It is the end of self.

 

[noguru]

Who told you that garbage?

Who told you it was garbage?

I think you need a clearer revelation of just how "wrong" you are to begin with. Based on your behavior, everything you do falls short of God, and if God examines you based on behavior, then you would never be anywhere near God.

With this I agree. Do you admit to the same?

Absolutely false.

Can you explain why?

Again, your reading skills are lacking.

Well it is either my reading skills or your composition skills.

"Enlighten" you? What does that mean? Are you a Unitarian?

I am not a Unitarian. I accept Jesus as God among us.

Christianity is not a self-improvement program. It is the end of self.

So you are no longer yourself? Who are you now? Do you have a messiah complex?

 

[godrulz]

But in another thread you claimed that you were so holy when at a Hotel with your wife.

?:kiss:

 

[godrulz]

"Enlighten" you? What does that mean? Are you a Unitarian? Christianity is not a self-improvement program. It is the end of self.

I like this thought, but it still does not preclude biblical descriptions of growth, maturity, transformation, etc. (I Peter 1:13-16; 2 Cor. 7:1; 2 Peter 1; Gal. 5; Rom. 6-8, Rom. 12:1-2 (continuous vs past completed), etc.).

How is it that I embraced Christ through simple faith, the same Jesus you worship (God-Man, risen from the dead; Lord, Messiah, Savior, King) and take His Word at face value (believe...saved; receive...saved), yet you say I am not saved. I trusted Christ from a simple, broken state, just as you did at one point. His Word gives assurance that those who confess and call on His name will be saved. It does not add conditions of agreeing with OSAS (especially since the Greek continuous tense for faith shows faith must be ongoing, not cease through apostasy) or rejecting birth control or saying that non-existent future sins are forgiven in advance or while they are persisted in if they are actually committed, etc. It seems that it is risky to think through these things lest one become unsaved. If we are OSAS, why am I still not saved, just because my ideas deepened or changed over time, even as yours have? If I was saved in 1978 by surrendering to Christ and dying to Self, why does OSAS not apply now just because you think denying OSAS, etc. is denying grace/faith and proof one is a godless pig going to hell?

Does anyone honestly agree with this guy's thinking about others (except those who do deny Christ and the gospel)?

 

[Balder]

While sitting in your plush corner office, the phone rings and it is the manager of Taco Hell ordering you to scrub the toliet.

Do you go do it? No, because you no longer are under his authority. You have been set free from Taco Hell (the Law). You have a new life. Does this mean that you will never scrub toliets again? No, you will, but you are no longer accountable to Taco Hell if you don't. It is no longer wrong if you do not, but it is profitable to have a clean toilet.

I understand this point of view. But it goes down easier when you use a toilet scrubbing example. What about something more egregious? Does the same principle apply? For instance, would you say that it is no longer wrong to kill or rape someone, but it's profitable not to do so?

 

[godrulz]

I understand this point of view. But it goes down easier when you use a toilet scrubbing example. What about something more egregious? Does the same principle apply? For instance, would you say that it is no longer wrong to kill or rape someone, but it's profitable not to do so?

Since the analogy is based on legal/work issues, not moral/spiritual/relational issues, it is limited and flawed (like most analogies about spiritual reality).

There is a big difference between not cleaning toilets and the Moral Law of God that has not been rescinded (unlike dietary and civil laws). We keep the Law because we are saved, not in order to be saved. It also condemns lawbreakers and is a schoolmaster to bring them to Christ who fulfilled (not negated) the Law.

 

[Mystery]

We keep the Law because we are saved, not in order to be saved.

That is a lie, and a false gospel.

Perhaps you missed where the bible proves that you are a false teacher...

You, like many others, are against the Law for the reason that God gave the Law.

"Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:19-26

YOU refuse to die to the Law, that you might live to God.

"Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet." But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead." Romans 7:4-8

YOUR god is the Law, and you worship the Law, rather than Jesus. YOU want others to obey the Law, so that you can boast in their flesh.

"Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised, that they may boast in your flesh. But may it never be that I should boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Galatians 6:12-14

"But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted." 1 Timothy 1:5-11

YOU, godrulz, are AGAINST the Law for the reason that God made it. YOU are against the gospel of Jesus Christ where men are released from the Law to serve God in the Spirit and not in the flesh. YOU are contrary to ALL that I have just quoted from the God of the bible whom YOU oppose and are AGAINST. YOU are an enemy of Christ. YOU are an enemy of the gospel. YOU are an enemy of the purpose of the Law. YOU are an antinomian.

 

[Mystery]

What about something more egregious? Does the same principle apply? For instance, would you say that it is no longer wrong to kill or rape someone, but it's profitable not to do so?

It will no longer be counted against you by God, but it should cost you your physical life.

 

[Balder]

It will no longer be counted against you by God, but it should cost you your physical life.

Does that mean it is still wrong, since it deserves punishment? Or is this now just a neutral transaction?

 

[Mystery]

Does that mean it is still wrong, since it deserves punishment? Or is this now just a neutral transaction?

of course it is "wrong". Man is "wrong".