On the omniscience of God

Lon said:

Immutability doesn't mean a rock. It means rather that all there is, is from God Who has always existed and the only Constant in existence. God is infinite, the 'Rock' is without limitation. Immutable is understood in the sense that He cannot become what He is not.

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I have Lon on ignore and will have him there from now on. However, there are times when people quote his posts and snippets of the things he says are brought to my attention. I discovered the above sentence a few hours ago and it's ignorance took my breath away.

There is, it seems to me, a box that Lon keeps stashed in his mind. Above the box is a sign that reads....

"Stupidly False Things That Lon Accepts as Correct for No Reason At All."

There isn't a single syllable of what Lon said about Immutability that is accurate. I swear its as if he is just making things up as he goes along!

I'm going to write up a post that proves not only what the doctrine of immutability teaches but where it comes from and why. I'll post it as an opener for a new thread and then I'll post a link to it at the bottom of this post.

On the Immutability of God​

Clete said:

I have Lon on ignore and will have him there from now on. However, there are times when people quote his posts and snippets of the things he says are brought to my attention. I discovered the above sentence a few hours ago and it's ignorance took my breath away.

There is, it seems to me, a box that Lon keeps stashed in his mind. Above the box is a sign that reads....

"Stupidly False Things That Lon Accepts as Correct for No Reason At All."

There isn't a single syllable of what Lon said about Immutability that is accurate. I swear its as if he is just making things up as he goes along!

I'm going to write up a post that proves not only what the doctrine of immutability teaches but where it comes from and why. I'll post it as an opener for a new thread and then I'll post a link to it at the bottom of this post.

On the Immutability of God​

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It's the open theist in @Lon that keeps making an appearance, but then gets stuffed back down.

Derf said:

This is true. But knowing the future without error means that the future is already determined. Your choices, if God knows the future exhaustively, are
1. God determines the future
2. Someone else determines the future.
That someone else must be someone in existence at the time all future events became knowable to God. That would not include you and me, even for the things we think we are responsible for determining, since we didn't exist back then, when God began to know our future.

But think about it. If there is some other being who was determining every future event back when God was beginning to know those future events, isn't that being greater than God? Or since God is the greatest being in existence, isn't that being truly God? In which case, God really is determine all future events, because He knows what they will be and because there isn't anyone greater than God.

"With great certainty" is not the same as without error. But what you've described is something that has been determined by someone else (someone besides yourself in this), so your example fits with either 1 or 2 above.

Meaning that He will determine the fulfillment of that promise. And He foreknows because He has predetermined that fulfillment. That's #1 above.

Then God doesn't know that you, personally, will meet the prerequisite conditions before you exist, right? This is Open Theism. If not, then God is predetermining everything.



Yes. But God doesn't know who that will be until they exist and either meet or don't meet the prerequisites. Thus, God's foreknowledge is not exhaustive, because He hasn't predetermined everything.

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If it is true, then why the "but?"

Knowing the future does not mean that the future is already determined. God himself makes allowances for people to change their mind. Thus every time we change our mind and take another course of action, our future changes. Of course, God is foreknowingly aware of that already, but his foreknowledge is not determining the future. He is aware of the future.

Of course, there are future events that God has already let us know that will happen based on He doing his will without regard to human input.

For instance, I Thessalonians 4:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There is nothing we can do to influence that event. Since we are Christians, we will be one of those who will be raised or caught in the air.

Foreknowledge does not imply determination

Those with freedom of will make decisions that determine their own future and those decisions may or may not influence the future of others. That is why God tells us to Love God and love our neighbors. We determine our relationship with God and with others

Great certainty is not absolute.

However, I can say with absolute certainly that I Thessalonians 4:13-17 is an absolute certainty. Not because I will determine it, but because God decided to do that.

God foreknew that I would chose to believe before the foundations of the world. That is how He could chose me before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He foreknew, so he chose those who He foreknew would chose to believe.

He did not determine whether we would believe or not. We determined to believe, but God foresaw that

God's foreknowledge is exhaustive.

He does not have to predetermine anything to have complete foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge does not imply, in any way, predetermination.

oatmeal said:

If it is true, then why the "but?"

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Please read more carefully. It is true what you wrote, that foreknowledge doesn't mean the person with foreknowledge determined the events. But it does mean the events are already determined, else the foreknowledge is not trustworthy.

oatmeal said:

Knowing the future does not mean that the future is already determined.

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Knowing the future perfectly (without error) does indeed mean the future is already determined, else it would be impossible to know perfectly.

oatmeal said:

God himself makes allowances for people to change their mind.

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Then God doesn't know the future perfectly.

oatmeal said:

Thus every time we change our mind and take another course of action, our future changes.

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Agreed.

oatmeal said:

Of course, God is foreknowingly aware of that already, but his foreknowledge is not determining the future. He is aware of the future.

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If He is aware of our future choices, even before we exist, then
1. Our future choices are predetermined, and
2. He or someone else is determining our future choices, not we (because we don't exist yet when God begins to know our future choices).

oatmeal said:

Of course, there are future events that God has already let us know that will happen based on He doing his will without regard to human input.

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Yes, I agree.

oatmeal said:

For instance, I Thessalonians 4:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There is nothing we can do to influence that event. Since we are Christians, we will be one of those who will be raised or caught in the air.

Foreknowledge does not imply determination

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Yes, it does, just not necessarily by the foreknower.

oatmeal said:

Those with freedom of will make decisions that determine their own future and those decisions may or may not influence the future of others. That is why God tells us to Love God and love our neighbors. We determine our relationship with God and with others

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Agreed.

oatmeal said:

Great certainty is not absolute.

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Agreed.

oatmeal said:

However, I can say with absolute certainly that I Thessalonians 4:13-17 is an absolute certainty. Not because I will determine it, but because God decided to do that.

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Right. You can be certain about what God decides to do, as long as it isn't contingent on the choices of other agents.

oatmeal said:

God foreknew that I would chose to believe before the foundations of the world.

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How do you know that? If God knew your choice to believe before you existed, then it wasn't you who made that choice.

oatmeal said:

That is how He could chose me before the foundation of the world.

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No, He might choose "all those" who will believe in Christian in the future, without choosing specific individuals.

oatmeal said:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him

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This "in him" part is what I mentioned above. All those who will eventually be "in him" are chosen to be holy and without blame.

oatmeal said:

before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He foreknew, so he chose those who He foreknew would chose to believe.

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Then He chose those whom He (or someone else) determined to believe.

oatmeal said:

He did not determine whether we would believe or not. We determined to believe, but God foresaw that

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Then, if God knew it, it was already predetermined before we existed.

oatmeal said:

God's foreknowledge is exhaustive.

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Then, because God is not wrong in His foreknowkedge, all ("exhaustively") has been predetermined by someone who existed at the time God began to foreknower it exhaustively.

oatmeal said:

He does not have to predetermine anything to have complete foreknowledge.

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Somebody does, at least for choices you and I will make. And you and I didn't exist when the foreknowkedge was available for God to know.

oatmeal said:

Foreknowledge does not imply, in any way, predetermination.

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Yes, it does, if the foreknowledge is perfect. If it hasn't already been determined, then it might change. You said so yourself earlier. But if God foreknower the change, there's no change. Have you read the Hezekiah references earlier in this thread? You should. God, foreknowing perfectly whether Hezekiah would die at the earlier time or 15 years later, according to your version of His foreknowkedge, still told Hezekiah he would die at the earlier time, then God changed Hezekiah's future by "adding" 15 years to his life. Even God didn't foreknowkedge He would add 15 years, else it wouldn't be "added", it would be what God already foreknew.

Clete said:

"Stupidly False Things That Lon Accepts as Correct for No Reason At All."

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Derf said:

It's the open theist in @Lon that keeps making an appearance, but then gets stuffed back down.

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Glad I took the sabbatical. With mindless non-sequiturs like this, I'll keep on my sabbatical. You both lose by inane banter. Open Theism will always be a joke as long as stuff like this makes it one. You simply have to stand up like men when honest, serious questions, challenge your views else it is simply ad hoc preferences for a simplistic theology that makes poor but tidy sense. Again, Open Theism is stuck in English translations by all intimation. Because most laymen cannot but fall to the mercies of English translations, it is understandable, but think: No scholar is an Open Theist. Worth your time on contemplation.

Lon said:

Glad I took the sabbatical. With mindless non-sequiturs like this, I'll keep on my sabbatical. You both lose by inane banter. Open Theism will always be a joke as long as stuff like this makes it one. You simply have to stand up like men when honest, serious questions, challenge your views else it is simply ad hoc preferences for a simplistic theology that makes poor but tidy sense. Again, Open Theism is stuck in English translations by all intimation. Because most laymen cannot but fall to the mercies of English translations, it is understandable, but think: No scholar is an Open Theist. Worth your time on contemplation.

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All scholars are open theists in practice. They have to be, or they would never do anything. Nobody in practice thinks, "I'm eating this meal, picking my teeth, lusting after that girl, etc., because God foreordained it for me before the foundation of the world.

Derf said:

Please read more carefully. It is true what you wrote, that foreknowledge doesn't mean the person with foreknowledge determined the events. But it does mean the events are already determined, else the foreknowledge is not trustworthy.

Knowing the future perfectly (without error) does indeed mean the future is already determined, else it would be impossible to know perfectly.

Then God doesn't know the future perfectly.

Agreed.

If He is aware of our future choices, even before we exist, then
1. Our future choices are predetermined, and
2. He or someone else is determining our future choices, not we (because we don't exist yet when God begins to know our future choices).

Yes, I agree.

Yes, it does, just not necessarily by the foreknower.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Right. You can be certain about what God decides to do, as long as it isn't contingent on the choices of other agents.

How do you know that? If God knew your choice to believe before you existed, then it wasn't you who made that choice.

No, He might choose "all those" who will believe in Christian in the future, without choosing specific individuals.

This "in him" part is what I mentioned above. All those who will eventually be "in him" are chosen to be holy and without blame.

Then He chose those whom He (or someone else) determined to believe.

Then, if God knew it, it was already predetermined before we existed.

Then, because God is not wrong in His foreknowkedge, all ("exhaustively") has been predetermined by someone who existed at the time God began to foreknower it exhaustively.

Somebody does, at least for choices you and I will make. And you and I didn't exist when the foreknowkedge was available for God to know.

Yes, it does, if the foreknowledge is perfect. If it hasn't already been determined, then it might change. You said so yourself earlier. But if God foreknower the change, there's no change. Have you read the Hezekiah references earlier in this thread? You should. God, foreknowing perfectly whether Hezekiah would die at the earlier time or 15 years later, according to your version of His foreknowkedge, still told Hezekiah he would die at the earlier time, then God changed Hezekiah's future by "adding" 15 years to his life. Even God didn't foreknowkedge He would add 15 years, else it wouldn't be "added", it would be what God already foreknew.

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Foreknowledge does not indicate that events were already determined, it only shows that the future events are known. If they were already determined than foreknowledge would be unnecessary because all things in the future would be planned ahead of time. God does not force people to believe or not believe. Foreknowledge and predetermination are separate issues.

God knowing what I will chose in the future does not indicate that my choices were predetermined. When you learn to make the distinction between action and knowledge, then you will have a clearer understanding of the issues at play.

God, because of his foreknowledge is able to chose ahead of time, who he will favor. God gave us free will to make choices, whether or not those choices are based on lies or truth.

oatmeal said:

Foreknowledge does not indicate that events were already determined, it only shows that the future events are known. If they were already determined than foreknowledge would be unnecessary because all things in the future would be planned ahead of time. God does not force people to believe or not believe. Foreknowledge and predetermination are separate issues.

God knowing what I will chose in the future does not indicate that my choices were predetermined. When you learn to make the distinction between action and knowledge, then you will have a clearer understanding of the issues at play.

God, because of his foreknowledge is able to chose ahead of time, who he will favor. God gave us free will to make choices, whether or not those choices are based on lies or truth.

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See post #2, here:

JudgeRightly said:

@Clete recently shared with me this article which describes one of the problems with saying that God can know the future.

Foreknowledge and Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

In it, the author(s) reason out the following logical argument:

A precise version of the argument can be formulated as follows: Choose some proposition about a future act that you think you will do freely, if any act is free. Suppose, for example, that the telephone will ring at 9 am tomorrow and you will either answer it or you will not. So it is either true that you will answer the phone at 9 am tomorrow or it is true that you will not answer the phone at 9 am tomorrow. The Law of Excluded Middle rules out any other alternative. Let T abbreviate the proposition that you will answer the phone tomorrow at 9, and let us suppose that T is true. (If not-T is true instead, simply substitute not-T in the argument below). Let “now-necessary” designate temporal necessity, the type of necessity that the past is supposed to have just because it is past. We will discuss this type of necessity in sections 2.3 and 2.6, but we can begin with the intuitive idea that there is a kind of necessity that a proposition has now when the content of the proposition is about something that occurred in the past. To say that it is now-necessary that milk has been spilled is to say nobody can do anything now about the fact that the milk has been spilled. Let “God” designate a being who has infallible beliefs about the future, where to say that God believes p infallibly is to say that God believes p and it is not possible that God believes p and p is false. It is not important for the logic of the argument that God is the being worshiped by any particular religion, but the motive to maintain that there is a being with infallible beliefs is usually a religious one. One more preliminary point is in order. The dilemma of infallible foreknowledge and human free will does not rest on the particular assumption of foreknowledge and does not require an analysis of knowledge. Most contemporary accounts of knowledge are fallibilist, which means they do not require that a person believe in a way that cannot be mistaken in order to have knowledge. She has knowledge just in case what she believes is true and she satisfies the other conditions for knowledge, such as having sufficiently strong evidence. Ordinary knowledge does not require that the belief cannot be false. For example, if I believe on strong evidence that classes begin at my university on a certain date, and when the day arrives, classes do begin, we would normally say I knew in advance that classes would begin on that date. I had foreknowledge about the date classes begin. But there is nothing problematic about that kind of foreknowledge because events could have proven me wrong even though as events actually turned out, they didn’t prove me wrong. Ordinary foreknowledge does not threaten to necessitate the future because it does not require that when I know p it is not possible that my belief is false. The key problem, then, is the infallibility of the belief about the future, and this is a problem whether or not the epistemic agent with an infallible belief satisfies the other conditions required by some account of knowledge, such as sufficient evidence. As long as an agent has an infallible belief about the future, the problem arises. Using the example of the proposition T, the argument that infallible foreknowledge of T entails that you do not answer the telephone freely can be formulated as follows: Basic Argument for Theological Fatalism. (1) Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge] (2) If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past] (3) It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2] (4) Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”] (5) If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle] (6) So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5] (7) If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”] (8) Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7] (9) If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities] (10) Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9] This argument is formulated in a way that makes its logical form as perspicuous as possible, and there is a consensus that this argument or something close to it is valid. That is, if the premises are all true, the conclusion follows.

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If you think you've found a flaw in the reasoning, please, by all means, point it out.

Otherwise, you're just wrong. If God has infallible foreknowledge about everything in the future, then you do not have free will. Period.

oatmeal said:

Foreknowledge does not indicate that events were already determined, it only shows that the future events are known.

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And therefore already determined. I'm open to your suggestions about who is doing the determining, as long as that individual exists at the time the future events become known.

oatmeal said:

If they were already determined than foreknowledge would be unnecessary

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Not unnecessary. Perfect foreknowledge means they are already determined.

oatmeal said:

because all things in the future would be planned ahead of time.

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Yes.

oatmeal said:

God does not force people to believe or not believe.

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Somebody must, if He knows the outcome before the people exist.

oatmeal said:

Foreknowledge and predetermination are separate issues.

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Opposites sides of the same coin, perhaps.

oatmeal said:

God knowing what I will chose in the future does not indicate that my choices were predetermined.

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Yes, it does.

oatmeal said:

When you learn to make the distinction between action and knowledge, then you will have a clearer understanding of the issues at play.

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I'm not arguing the action source, just that the action has been completed in order that the knowledge is perfect.

oatmeal said:

God, because of his foreknowledge is able to chose ahead of time, who he will favor.

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Because you exist and can make a choice? Or is God choosing in a vacuum?

oatmeal said:

God gave us free will to make choices,

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Yes. And therefore those decisions are made by us, not someone else. But we can't make the decisions until we exist. So God can't know our decisions before we exist.

oatmeal said:

whether or not those choices are based on lies or truth.

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Not sure what that means.

Derf said:

All scholars are open theists in practice. They have to be, or they would never do anything. Nobody in practice thinks, "I'm eating this meal, picking my teeth, lusting after that girl, etc., because God foreordained it for me before the foundation of the world.

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It's not just scholars. The average pew-sitting Calvinist often just absorbs the doctrine without deeply wrestling with its implications. They affirm determinism in the abstract but live their lives in a way that assumes real choice, simply because that’s how human experience works. They don’t stop to think about whether their decisions, from one moment to the next, are actually free or just illusions of freedom.

Theologians, pastors, apologists and other assorted "scholars" (i.e. the ones teaching the doctrine), however, are in a trickier position. They are more aware of the contradictions, yet they have to maintain the system. This often leads to compartmentalization, where they affirm determinism when discussing theology but operate as functional libertarians in daily life. They’ll argue that every molecule moves by divine decree, but then they’ll stress over sermon preparation, as if their effort truly makes a difference in how people respond.

Some of them seem to recognize the problem, but explain it away with paradox, mystery, secondary causation or whatever. Others lean into compatibilism, redefining free will to mean “doing what you most desire” rather than having real alternative possibilities, but even that falls apart when you consider that, under their system, even their desires are predetermined.

Yet, no Calvinist, whether professional or laymen, sits at the breakfast table waiting for the sovereign decree to unfold before them; they instinctively assume agency in choosing which cereal to eat. They research, plan, and invest in the stock market as if future market movements are not already fixed. They agonize over parenting decisions as if their child’s future is not set in stone.

Every act of decision making, every moment of hesitation, every reconsideration is a silent admission that their doctrine does not align with lived reality. Their own behavior is an endless stream of tacit affirmations that the future is not exhaustively settled, that they genuinely participate in shaping what is to come, and that their choices actually matter in a way that can’t be reconciled with determinism.

If someone actually tried to live as if every action, thought, and desire were preordained, they’d be paralyzed by the absurdity of it. Imagine a Calvinist refusing to make a choice because "whatever happens was decreed," sitting at a green light waiting for God’s sovereign will to compel them to go, or never deliberating over a purchase because "the decision was already made from eternity past." It wouldn’t just be impractical, it would be utterly incoherent. Even Calvinists who claim to embrace determinism live as if their choices are real, their reasoning matters, and their actions shape the future. The fact that they must constantly switch modes, preaching determinism but practicing free agency, proves that their doctrine is fundamentally at odds with reality.

It is, however, one of those cases where behavior speaks louder than belief. No one actually functions as a consistent Calvinist. The very attempt to do so would immediately collapse under its own weight.

I heard an example one where poetry was used. Certain types of poetry have strong rules for rhyme, lines and cadence and such. Those things must happen for the poem to be completed properly; yet, within those perimeters the poets can tell any stories they wish. Think of God as the rules and perimeters and goal setter but people can weave their own self will within but God's plan will happen.

I also think of the warning to Queen Esther. Perhaps you are chosen for such a time as this ... but if you don't choose to fulfill it ... you will lose ... or have negative things happen to you ... and someone else will receive the glory.

Another example like the one above was when Judge and prophetess Deborah reminded Barak that the LORD had given him instructions to kill Sisera the captain of an army of enemies. Barak had hesitated to do so and even said he would only do it if Judge Deborah went with him. She did ... and they attacked Barak's army.
Yet, God, through prophetess Deborah, told him his consequence for his hesitation. Judges 4:9 [paraphrased] I will go with you Barak ... notwithstanding the journey/mission of killing Sisera, shall not be for your honor ... for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman.
Of course, that came true when a woman drove a tent peg through Sisera's head while he slept.

My opinion God know the end of all things and if one person won't do his will among men ... then he will raise up one who will. The hesitant person will not receive any honor and may face consequences for not obeying.

My last example for freewill and things getting done pertaining to God's plans is this: Three Lords came unto Abraham. They in one accord were on a mission. God down into S and G to look around and judge. One identified as The LORD stayed to have a WORD with Abraham, but the other two Lords continued into the towns. Yet, they did not do what they were suppose to do. Instead they went home with Lot. Now, did this stop the mission? No. The LORD came down later in the evening and stayed in the street all night judging the people. The mob was so angry with him that they wanted to harm and maybe run all three sojourners out of town. Even so free will intertwined the events, the judging took place and S and G were destroyed.

These three examples show people have free will but God's will gets done. I do believe God has a plan and is on a mission among men and it will be finalized ... but he is still able to allow people to live their lives with freewill.

I think even God, appearing as the individual known as HIS OWN Son, had freewill to refuse to "drink the cup." Yet, he chose to complete his mission.


I hope my comments fit the topic of the thread ... I did not read all the posts.

Derf said:

And therefore already determined. I'm open to your suggestions about who is doing the determining, as long as that individual exists at the time the future events become known.

Not unnecessary. Perfect foreknowledge means they are already determined.

Yes.

Somebody must, if He knows the outcome before the people exist.

Opposites sides of the same coin, perhaps.

Yes, it does.

I'm not arguing the action source, just that the action has been completed in order that the knowledge is perfect.

Because you exist and can make a choice? Or is God choosing in a vacuum?

Yes. And therefore those decisions are made by us, not someone else. But we can't make the decisions until we exist. So God can't know our decisions before we exist.

Not sure what that means.

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Foreknowledge does not predetermine future events. They are known but not predetermined.

I have foreknowledge of the return of Christ for his saints. Are you suggesting that I am the cause and authority concerning the return of Christ?

Can't God KNOW the outcome of his plan without controlling man's freewill?

Part of a prayer: Thy will [God's will] be done on Earth as in Heaven.

Couple of my personal examples. People will think they are silly things ... but God is omni-present. He even is aware of my simple life and cares.

Had a pair of 18K Tiffany gold earrings. Rare for me lol. A special gift. Loved them. Wore them all the time.
One morning I heard in my mind: "Don't wear those."
I didn't listen and thought on my own, but I always wear them and I'm just going to one place to do some volunteering. It will be okay.
Well, I wore them and lost one!!!! I looked everywhere. Even through dumpster bags because a little boy scout had emptied all the trash cans.
I never found it.

Yes, God knew ... and chose to warn me, but I didn't listen.

Years later: I heard in my mind, "Wreck."
I believed it was from God; so, I listened.
I did everything correctly as I traveled home ... even drove a longer and safer route. Used all signals and etc.
When I arrived at the entrance to our neighborhood to make my left turn, I turned on my blinker and waited on the car that was coming. I even checked my rearview mirror to see what might be coming up behind me. Determined the cars were far enough back that they surely would see my left turn light.
Then: Wham!!!
The woman behind me ran into my car. Totaled it. The man behind her stayed until the police arrived and told him how everything happened.
They had only a few question for me.

I asked God later: Lord, I did everything I could to listen to the warning you gave me why did I still experience the wreck.
He answered with this: "You listened. She didn't."

I learned a couple of things about our free will and God knowing everything. Yes, he knew what was going to happen. I listened but didn't say a prayer in His NAME. Next time I hear from him I hope to say a prayer.
Also even though she used her freewill to cause the wreck ... God was with me, protected, me and sent me a helper to describe everything that went on. I only had a minor back strain and physical therapy.

Some how God can know what is going to happen but can allow us to weave our own stories.

Ps82 said:

Can't God KNOW the outcome of his plan without controlling man's freewill?

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His plan, yes. Of course he can.

When you make plans, do you take control of the people involved?

Ps82 said:

Part of a prayer: Thy will [God's will] be done on Earth as in Heaven.

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Which often does not happen. Otherwise, there'd be no point in praying for it. The very prayer itself is a tacit admission that the future is not settled.

Ps82 said:

Couple of my personal examples. People will think they are silly things ... but God is omni-present.

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God exists in all places THAT HE WANTS TO BE IN, at once. God is not forced to be in a place where He doesn't want to be nor is He in any place that does not exist (like the past and future).

Ps82 said:

He even is aware of my simple life and cares.

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What He is or is not aware of has little to nothing to do with where He happens to be.

Ps82 said:

Had a pair of 18K Tiffany gold earrings. Rare for me lol. A special gift. Loved them. Wore them all the time.
One morning I heard in my mind: "Don't wear those."
I didn't listen and thought on my own, but I always wear them and I'm just going to one place to do some volunteering. It will be okay.
Well, I wore them and lost one!!!! I looked everywhere. Even through dumpster bags because a little boy scout had emptied all the trash cans.
I never found it.

Yes, God knew ... and chose to warn me, but I didn't listen.

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This entire story was a lie.

Ps82 said:

Years later: I heard in my mind, "Wreck."
I believed it was from God; so, I listened.

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You have no evidence that it wasn't Satan wishing to convince you to listen to voices in your head.

Ps82 said:

I did everything correctly as I traveled home ... even drove a longer and safer route. Used all signals and etc.

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As if that would prevent a car wreck from happening.

Ps82 said:

When I arrived at the entrance to our neighborhood to make my left turn, I turned on my blinker and waited on the car that was coming. I even checked my rearview mirror to see what might be coming up behind me. Determined the cars were far enough back that they surely would see my left turn light.
Then: Wham!!!
The woman behind me ran into my car. Totaled it. The man behind her stayed until the police arrived and told him how everything happened.
They had only a few question for me.

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Your doctrine is based on the same foundation as the Eckankar cult or any number of other New Age cults.

Ps82 said:

I asked God later: Lord, I did everything I could to listen to the warning you gave me why did I still experience the wreck.
He answered with this: "You listened. She didn't."

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You are a liar. This DID NOT happen.

Ps82 said:

I learned a couple of things about our free will and God knowing everything. Yes, he knew what was going to happen. I listened but didn't say a prayer in His NAME.

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You're too stupid to even be worth my time.

If He knew what was going to happen then why didn't you have a wreck? Was He wrong? Did God thwart His own plan by warning you? If so, how is it that He failed to convince someone else? Was it His plan for you to listen but for her to ignore Him? If so, where's the free will?

Your entire doctrine is just one continuous mess of self-contradictory nonsense and you know it! That's why you construct these fantasies and attribute such foolishness to the God who created you!

Ps82 said:

Next time I hear from him I hope to say a prayer.
Also even though she used her freewill to cause the wreck ... God was with me, protected, me and sent me a helper to describe everything that went on. I only had a minor back strain and physical therapy.

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Some God you serve! He miraculously saved you from everything but a car crash and an injured back that you had to get therapy for! OOPS!!!

I mean that's one Hell of an impressive miracle!!!

Ps82 said:

Some how God can know what is going to happen but can allow us to weave our own stories.

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Go on and believe your fairy tales. You're just making this nonsense up as you go anyway. Why do you even bother to pretend to try to make sense of it? What's the point?

(The point is that you know that you're making all this up and it's eating you up inside! Your own mind is begging for something real to trust!)


Your core premise is that God (plug in ANY higher power you desire actually) communicates directly and personally with individuals and with you in particular, offering warnings or guidance. Obedience to these messages can prevent harm and disobedience can result in negative consequences. However, even if harm occurs despite obedience, it may be due to someone else's failure to listen to divine communication, not a failure of the divine itself.

An unfalsifiable statement is one that lacks even the potential to be shown false through empirical testing, logical contradiction, or observational refutation and your doctrine is a perfect text-book example of what it means for something to be unfalsifiable. Which is what allows me to state emphatically that you have no evidence that any such internal communication from "God" wasn't actually from Satan. You have NO WAY to know.

Worse than that, you don't care! You don't want to know. You simply choose to believe whatever makes you feel good. If you ever found out that the real God is no respecter or persons and doesn't actually treat you any differently than he treats anyone else, your entire bloated self-portrait would melt.

oatmeal said:

Foreknowledge does not predetermine future events. They are known but not predetermined.

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If they are known, then they must have been determined. If they are foreknown, they must have been predetermined. That's how language works.

oatmeal said:

I have foreknowledge of the return of Christ for his saints. Are you suggesting that I am the cause and authority concerning the return of Christ?

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No. Just because YOU know, doesn't mean YOU predetermined. But somebody did. And because somebody did, it was predetermined. Are you saying that if you didn't know, then God couldn't have predetermined Christ's return? You don't know the day nor the hour, but assuming the day and hour are fixed, God still can be responsible for determining the day and hour.

Derf said:

If they are known, then they must have been determined. If they are foreknown, they must have been predetermined. That's how language works.

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But that's not what the Scripture says

$$ Ro 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate ...

Foreknowledge comes first.

Derf said:

No. Just because YOU know, doesn't mean YOU predetermined. But somebody did. And because somebody did, it was predetermined. Are you saying that if you didn't know, then God couldn't have predetermined Christ's return? You don't know the day nor the hour, but assuming the day and hour are fixed, God still can be responsible for determining the day and hour.

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$$ 1Pe 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father ...

This is again foreknowledge, preceding predestination or election.

Idolater said:

But that's not what the Scripture says

$$ Ro 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate ...

Foreknowledge comes first.

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Foreknowledge about whom, predestination to what. You're conflating things.

Idolater said:

$$ 1Pe 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father ...

This is again foreknowledge, preceding predestination or election.

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I can't tell whether the foreknowledge precedes or is simultaneous in this passage. "According to" is chronologically ambiguous.

But since Peter is talking to gentile believers here (though I'm sure my MAD friends will disagree), God is talking about His plans to include gentiles in the plan of salvation. He foreknew His own plans, iow. This confirms what I was talking to @oatmeal about. God foreknows what He plans to do. How odd it would be to say that God looks into the future to find out what He will be doing. He provided salvation to the whole world, as intended, including those who were at one time far off (gentiles).

Derf said:

Foreknowledge about whom, predestination to what. You're conflating things.

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You don't think it's "the saints" in Romans 8:27?

Derf said:

I can't tell whether the foreknowledge precedes or is simultaneous in this passage. "According to" is chronologically ambiguous.

But since Peter is talking to gentile believers here (though I'm sure my MAD friends will disagree)

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You think the scattered twelve tribes was symbolic for everybody? You're going to go to Acts 9er jail for that take.

Derf said:

, God is talking about His plans to include gentiles in the plan of salvation. He foreknew His own plans, iow. This confirms what I was talking to @oatmeal about. God foreknows what He plans to do. How odd it would be to say that God looks into the future to find out what He will be doing. He provided salvation to the whole world, as intended, including those who were at one time far off (gentiles).

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I don't see any reason why the foreknowledge doesn't apply to both individuals and to groups.

Derf said:

But since Peter is talking to gentile believers here (though I'm sure my MAD friends will disagree),

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And for good reason!

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied."

The "Pilgrims of the Dispersion" (AKA the DIASPORA) are Jews. Not gentiles.

God is talking about His plans to include gentiles in the plan of salvation.

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God isn't talking to the Gentiles about His plans. They're relatively clueless about the whole situation (as opposed to being confused about some minor details that cause greater confusion). And He sent Paul for that task, to convert the Gentiles.

Rather, God is talking (through Peter) to the elect Jews (the ones who believed Christ was the Messiah) who are confused about God's plans for the Gentiles.

Idolater said:

But that's not what the Scripture says

$$ Ro 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate ...

Foreknowledge comes first.



$$ 1Pe 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father ...

This is again foreknowledge, preceding predestination or election.

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Thank you for pointing that out.

I agree with your assessment. Add to that the meaning of the Greek word for predestinate, proorizo, which means, to mark out beforehand, to appoint beforehand and we see that God preappointed those, as you clearly and rightfully point out, who God foreknew.

Anyone planning a party, because of knowledge they already have, invite guests according to the plan and goal of the party. Likewise they preappoint entertainment, food, drinks, etc. They do not wait until after the party is started to make those decisions.

I fully agree with your conclusions