Bladerunner
Active member
I should have said, 'How large His Band Width' most likely is.
On the omniscience of God
- Thread starter JudgeRightly
- Start date
That's.... Not how this works at all.
God exists in the present. The future does not exist. The past is just a memory. God deals in the here and now, to affect the outcome that may or may not happen. If we use the chess analogy: God doesn't need to know every future move of His opponent in order to win the game. He's wise enough to win the game because He can predict what His opponent will do in advance, and set up His pieces accordingly. And even if His opponent does something unexpected, He's still competent enough to win even in spite of it!
That's the God of the Bible.
Lon
Well-known member
Prognosis
I'm not a Christopher Fisher fan, too indoctrinated to even consider the debate points, he isn't doing talking points, but rather doing 'smiling' commentary. He isn't even listening, just immediately going to a standard rhetoric. Two ships passing, never engaging (Bob listens, he has his answer in mind, but is listening and treating the subject).
He is a language scholar and supports my dialogue about problems with translating the Hebrew NACHAM as 'to sigh' as 'changed mind.'
Bruce Ware does leave some questions answerable by Open Theists, for instance, he believes God changes His actions. On such I'd rephrase: God doesn't change His actions, He acts according to predetermined consequences and uses that knowledge to guide people. He always tells Israel and Judah that if they do something, there will be a result. Consequences, not change of action. "I will surely drive the nations out 'if...'"
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Bladerunner
Active member
Yet, the article states that Man and God has no free will in the future is settled? Hope I am saying this right? who determines the 'future is settled'?
Are you asking me or are you telling me?
Because as far as I can tell, the article is discussing the ramifications of the view, not making a claim one way or the other.
No idea.
I don't claim the future is settled. It's not my position to defend.
I'm simply pointing out the logical conclusions of the claim that the future is settled.
Right Divider
Body part
That is the claim of CALVINISTS!
(A false claim).
Bladerunner
Active member
I see and thanks for you insight.
Bladerunner
Active member
Hello Right Divider....I can see where they (Calvinists) might come to this Assumption.
However, as you have said: it is (a False Claim).
Have a great day!
Right Divider
Body part
It is a false claim.
Have an amazing day!
P.S. It's not an assumption, it's a claim.
P.P.S. Why do you feel the need to capitalize "Assumption"?
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Bladerunner
Active member
It is a false claim.
Have an amazing day!
P.S. It's not an assumption, it's a claim.
P.P.S. Why do feel the need to capitalize"Assumption"
Derf
Well-known member
That's for all those Catholic Calvinists.
Lon
Well-known member
They do, but I don't see it. If I were hypothetically get an Almanac from the future that said you'd win something, or such. I'd know infallibly what you'd do but have no connection with you at all. "Knowing" doesn't do anything to your free will as far as analogy goes. You will do something. I know it. The fallacy is that you weren't free because 'now' you cannot do otherwise. :Z We actuate our own future by what we do and no, we couldn't have done otherwise. The proponents of free will, will insist "that's different!" Not according to the analogy. In both cases, you cannot 'do otherwise.' You can only go one direction at a time. It is like insisting that I am only 'free' to move if I can move backwards and forwards at the same time. Let's say I have a wall at my back. Am I still 'free' to walk forward? Sure I am.
Once we move in any direction, that direction is determined. Does it mean if I put you in a maze you don't have free movement? Even though I know exactly how you have to get out of the maze? Of course not. You don't have to get out of the maze, can sit down because you have no free will, but me knowing there is only one way out does not have anything at all to do with your movement. I simply 'know' how you must get out of the maze. In the end, you were 'free' to get out of the maze! Such does intimate there is a 'limit' on your movement -- you cannot fly.
Because you cannot fly, you are not 'free to leave the maze????' Makes no sense. Neither does any free will theist trying to posit this. What they must mean is 'Not the way I want to be free.' Does that mean you aren't free? :nono: Of course not. It simply means and always means, that you are not free to do something, but can do another. The objection just doesn't hold water and doesn't stand up, yet it is one of the pinnacles of free will theism anyway (even if it makes little logical connection). In this analogy, I made a maze (God made the universe). In this analogy I know where everything leads in the maze (God knows exactly how His universe works).
To date, it seems fear leads before clear thinking. There is no reason to posit that you don't have freewill if anyone (anyone) knows what you are going to do 'while' you are doing it, nor if they know it well ahead of time. There is nothing fanciful about knowing now or well ahead of time that eliminates free will. It is just a fear that it is true, sight unseen, without any proof that holds water.
Bladerunner
Active member
Unfortunately it also considers GOD as not changing. If this were the case, then the free will of man may very well be non-existent and the future likely could be settled. However, GOD does change based upon man's free will. Thus, the future cannot be settled. Too many think-tanks in the world when all they got to do is believe with their whole heart and minds.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
August 15th
Lon
Well-known member
Immutability doesn't mean a rock. It means rather that all there is, is from God Who has always existed and the only Constant in existence. God is infinite, the 'Rock' is without limitation. Immutable is understood in the sense that He cannot become what He is not.
My point: why would it matter? You have a sense of self-worth, but for all Christians, that self-worth is God-worth. We want to be like Him which is a desire for that which is good, unchanging nature of God.
That is Open Theism. I don't believe you lose free will if God knows everything. "Settled?" Why is that language that bothers? I 'settled' for steak last night. There is no difference between a settled past, a settled just now, or a settled future, it just means decisions were, are to be, made.
Believe what? In God?
Believe what I want? :down:
Derf
Well-known member
I didn't know the date for Calvin's assumption. Thanks.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
lol.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Knowing (foreknowing) the future is not the same as determining the future.
Most people, including myself, could say with great certainly that the sun will rise tomorrow. However, in no way could anyone logically, or reasonably conclude that I am determining, ( being the cause of) the future. My "foreknowledge of sun rising tomorrow does not force the sun to rise tomorrow. The only future I can determine is the actions that I take. If believe a promise of God, God guarantees that He will fulfill that promise. That is if I meet the prerequisite conditions that God set up, God promise He will do His part.
Several examples of His promises, the prerequisites and the promised results should be evident, even to the casual reader.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
9 Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:
10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.
Psalm 1:
1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Anyone who fulfills the prerequisites shall receive the "advertised" promise
Derf
Well-known member
This is true. But knowing the future without error means that the future is already determined. Your choices, if God knows the future exhaustively, are
1. God determines the future
2. Someone else determines the future.
That someone else must be someone in existence at the time all future events became knowable to God. That would not include you and me, even for the things we think we are responsible for determining, since we didn't exist back then, when God began to know our future.
But think about it. If there is some other being who was determining every future event back when God was beginning to know those future events, isn't that being greater than God? Or since God is the greatest being in existence, isn't that being truly God? In which case, God really is determine all future events, because He knows what they will be and because there isn't anyone greater than God.
"With great certainty" is not the same as without error. But what you've described is something that has been determined by someone else (someone besides yourself in this), so your example fits with either 1 or 2 above.
Meaning that He will determine the fulfillment of that promise. And He foreknows because He has predetermined that fulfillment. That's #1 above.
Then God doesn't know that you, personally, will meet the prerequisite conditions before you exist, right? This is Open Theism. If not, then God is predetermining everything.
Yes. But God doesn't know who that will be until they exist and either meet or don't meet the prerequisites. Thus, God's foreknowledge is not exhaustive, because He hasn't predetermined everything.