Original Sin, and its Essence

[7djengo7]

Rom 9:11 does not say that they did no evil before they were born

Ah, so basically what this all boils down to is that either you haven't read Romans 9:11 and are lying through your teeth when you say otherwise, or you have read it and are lying through your teeth about what Paul was saying therein. Stop being an idiot; obviously -- contrary to your glaring falsehood -- Paul is saying that Jacob and Esau had done no evil before they were born, just as he is saying they, likewise, had done no good before they were born.

it says that before they were born or ever did any evil in this life after their birth

In which life? What exactly are you trying to say?

IF they were just newly created tabula rasa,

What do you mean by that? When are you talking about by your phrase, "just newly created"?

how did they know about the law of PRIMOGENITURE?

When? To when, exactly, are you referring when you say they "[knew] about the law of PRIMOGENITURE"? When they were still were in the womb, not even born yet? If that's what you're aiming at, I certainly don't grant you that they knew anything about anything before they were born, and I look forward to the spectacle of you "proving" they did.

how did they know that they were being born into a culture that followed the rule of primogeniture??

How do you intend to "prove" your claim that they knew what you claim they knew. Are you going to enlist some frolicking youth to drop whatever he's doing and draw a picture for you, like the pagans did in the Platonic dialogue, to "prove" that people somehow know all sorts of things before they're even born? By all means, feel free, while you're at it, to tell us all the things you "knew" before you were born.

 

[7djengo7]

Many have rigorously rejected the notion that GOD would hate an innocent before he sinned.

The Bible doesn't say God hated Esau before he sinned.

Since they were being evil in the womb

Have fun with your inability and failure to prove that pet falsehood of yours.

the time before they had done anything good or bad must have been before their conception

LOL @ "must have been". That's you admitting you know you have no hope of proving your pagan, Platonist falsehood that people were knowing, thinking, willing, acting, etc., prior to conception.

when we were all spirits made in the image of GOD

When was that, exactly?

 

[Derf]

Rom 9:11 does not say that they did no evil before they were born - it says that before they were born or ever did any evil in this life after their birth, one was already chosen / elected to lead and one to follow because HE loved the one and the other HE hated...to prove election was not by works but by HIS will.

11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d 13So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Many have rigorously rejected the notion that GOD would hate an innocent before he sinned. Since they were being evil in the womb the time before they had done anything good or bad must have been before their conception when we were all spirits made in the image of GOD being separated by our free will faith decisions into the elect whom HE loved or the non-elect whom HE hated.

Election was NOT unconditional or reprobation was also non-conditional which denigrates the loving kindness of GOD. The condition for election was having faith in YHWH's proclamation to be our creator GOD and the only saviour from sin, Col 1:23, while the condition for reprobation was to rebuke YHWH by faith, not proof, as a liar and therefore a false god, the unforgivable sin, the Satanic fall before the foundation of the world.

The only way you can read Rom 9:11 that way is to insert your apriori belief into it, just like you inserted the words "in this life".

 

[Derf]

True. Children's teeth set on edge might be just a result. But Ez 18 associates it with death, and Gen 2 and 3 indicate that death was a punishment. If death is not a punishment, this conversation will change dramatically.

True. They are definitely exceptions. That's why some say they are the two witnesses that will die in the future.

It was for Adam. It appears to be for us, since it is the wages of sin. But Adam's sin is what brought death into the world, including for infants.

What it literally says is: "You shall no longer use this proverb." God goes on to explain that a man is to be held accountable for his own sins.

No. Where did you get that from? Are you calling God a liar when He says:
Numbers 14:18 KJV — The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
He literally says He visits the iniquity of fathers on children. Literally.

I have. Have you reread the chapters I've pointed to?

In Ez 18? Where?

What does any part of God's word have to do with any other part of God's word?

You make God to be inconsistent. Which is particularly bad when discussing justice. He can do things to us that we aren't allowed to do to others. But the point is that Ez 18 has to be understood within the full context of God's revealed word, including those that may appear to conflict.

And you're saying that there is no truth that can be arrived at that doesn't have to do with choosing people for service? Do you actually fully read my posts, or only read the dog-whistle part?

Yeah, but your standard is that the passage only has to do with choosing people to serve Him. So it must not be about life and death.

No, I don't want to say that at all. I'm saying that death came on all men as a result of Adam's sin, including innocent children. I'm stating it as a fact presented to us in the bible.

For reading the bible, not just stopping at Ez 18?

I'm saying that God told Adam He would die if he ate the fruit. Paul said it applied to all people. Observation tells me that applies to innocent children sometimes.

I'm not sure where the dividing line is, but you can't find it by only looking at Ez 18. I'm just fine with sin having natural consequences, including death. But it death is also punishment brought on the whole human race by Adam's sin. And it is why Christ had to die, physically.

Ping @JudgeRightly
If you're tired of discussing this topic, I understand, but it seems important to understand what happened to the human race because of Adam's sin, and how Jesus' death can be applied to us to fix what happened. You'll notice that Jesus' death was specifically NOT earned, but accepted to redeem Adam's race. So God punished the innocent in that case.

If you go back and read what I wrote earlier in this thread, my point was to try to make sense out of the original sin conundrum. It is a conundrum BECAUSE of your point about God's just nature (a point I don't disagree with, nor am I ignoring), not in spite of it, as it seems you believe I think it is. And to make sense of it, I proposed that Adam's race's susceptibility to the punishment that is death is because we were all "in Adam" when he sinned, just like Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek when he was "in Abraham".

 

[ttruscott]

And to make sense of it, I proposed that Adam's race's susceptibility to the punishment that is death is because we were all "in Adam" when he sinned, just like Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek when he was "in Abraham".

I do not think this makes sense because there is no reason for the ONE who loves us and who created us to be HIS bride would have us become sinners by creating us sinners 'in Adam' rather than like Adam in his pre-sin innocence.

Light cannot create darkness, even by a surrogate.
A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit, even by a surrogate.
A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water, even by a surrogate.

The GOD who is holy in righteous love cannot create sinners by any means, even by Adam.

Yes, humans are sinful from conception as proven by their being subject to the wages of sin, that is, liable to die as death is the wages for sin, not a natural consequence of life. So, yes, we do have to account for that fact but I contend we do not find a satisfactory answer by blaming HIM for putting us into Adam...

Sin only accrues to a person who makes a free will decision to rebel against HIM, so it seems we are in Adam because we are sinners, not to become sinners in HIS sight.

 

[Derf]

I do not think this makes sense because there is no reason for the ONE who loves us and who created us to be HIS bride would have us become sinners by creating us sinners 'in Adam' rather than like Adam in his pre-sin innocence.

God didn't choose for us to become sinners.

Light cannot create darkness, even by a surrogate.
A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit, even by a surrogate.
A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water, even by a surrogate.

The GOD who is holy in righteous love cannot create sinners by any means, even by Adam.

Yes, humans are sinful from conception

I never said humans are sinful from conception. I don't believe they are, because of:
Romans 9:11 KJV — (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Which verse completely obliterates your failed theology, though you won't admit it.

as proven by their being subject to the wages of sin, that is, liable to die as death is the wages for sin, not a natural consequence of life. So, yes, we do have to account for that fact but I contend we do not find a satisfactory answer by blaming HIM for putting us into Adam...

I don't think we are "put into Adam". Rather, Adam has children after his likeness:
Genesis 5:3 KJV — And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
And if Levi pays tithes to Melchizedek in Abraham, then Adam's seed sins in Adam.

Sin only accrues to a person who makes a free will decision to rebel against HIM,

Does it? I guess it depends on what you mean. For instance, if a women who's pregnant steals a car and is put in prison, isn't the unborn child also in prison? He eats prison food (essentially) and sleeps in a prison cell. He's not allowed to leave.

so it seems we are in Adam because we are sinners, not to become sinners in HIS sight.

I don't see how that applies. We are in Adam because we are born of Adam. When we believe in Christ, we experience a new birth, so we are from then on in Christ.