Derf,
The further I went into the following post, the more aware I became of not being certain about just what it is you're trying to argue here. I think it would be a good idea for you to articulate, as clearly as you can, just what it is you're arguing. What is it that you're disagreeing with ttruscott about and what alternative are you putting forward? It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that we are actually in agreement.
Shall I quote it again? And I'll include the next verse to see if it helps.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23 KJV — For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
What exactly is the point here? Have you not been made alive in Christ? I know I have?
If we're not talking about physical life and death, why does the passage speak of something in the future?
That is beside the point. Whether its future or not doesn't negate the fact that it's primarily a spiritual matter.
Are you saying we aren't even spiritually alive in Christ yet, but must wait until Christ returns?
NO! That's what it seems like you are saying!
To be clear, my previous post sort of overstated my position, which is my own fault for wanting to post something when I didn't have the time to make the point properly. Physical death is part of what is being spoken of in I Corinthians but only part. The issue of being saved is not primarily a physical issue but a spiritual one. Yes, we all die physically and yes, those who are saved will be physically resurrected but that is quite a separate issue from what you seem to be debating here and to the extent that it is talking about physical death, it seems the passage you are siting doesn't apply. Verse 12 gives the context of what Paul is saying....
12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
....which is a point that none of us here making! Paul himself states explicitly what my point is at the end of the chapter you are citing.....
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
You might say then that all of this is yet future! Well, directly in context, it is, but to that extent it means that you've chosen the wrong proof text because it does not support YOUR position - at least as I understand it (I admit that your point is less than crystal clear to me. It seems either way I look at your position, your cited passage doesn't do that job you're asking of it.).
Are you arguing that infants are not 'in Adam' because they haven’t sinned personally? Or are you saying they
are in Adam and thus spiritually dead, even without personal sin? I’m still unclear on what conclusion you’re trying to draw from the passage. The passage doesn’t address moral culpability, age of accountability, or the need for personal salvation prior to sin. In that context, it is ENTIRELY about physical death. Is that the point you're making? If so, how would that apply to ttruscott's statement....
"It is blasphemy against HIS loving kindness, righteousness and justice to teach HE has us die in Adam without our ever making a free will decision to rebel sinfully."
...which is very decidedly about moral culpability?
It seems to me like the correct response to his point is to question his premise, not to accept it and try to explain it away, which is what it seems to me like you're doing.
If ttruescott were not on ignore and I were to respond to his statement, I would start by point out that he is assuming that dying ‘in Adam’ implies moral guilt. Scripture, however, presents it more as a consequence of being born into a fallen world. Babies who die aren’t being punished for personal sin, nor is God unjust for allowing them to die physically. Physical death is part of the natural order after Adam’s Fall (Genesis 3), not necessarily a moral judgment on each individual.
Additionally, if we demand that we must personally choose to sin in order to die ‘in Adam,’ do we also demand that we must personally do righteous deeds before we can live ‘in Christ’? Paul says, ‘as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive’! It’s a representative framework, not just an individual one. Just as we inherit the consequence of Adam’s sin by being in him, we inherit the benefit of Christ’s righteousness by being in Him. The justice of being made alive in Christ works the same way; it’s not earned by us personally, but received through union with Him. It is Christ's death (both physically and spiritually) that provides the justice, not the death of children nor our righteousness.
And in response to ttruescott, as with you, I'd feel compelled to emphasize that this issue is not primarily about physical death, but about spiritual death. When Paul writes, "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive," he is pointing to a reality with profound spiritual implications. The spiritual death that resulted from Adam's sin became universal, not because of inherited guilt, but because the effect cannot be greater than its cause. Just as Adam became spiritually dead (i.e. separated from God), so the race that came from him was likewise spiritually dead. However! Christ’s redemptive work at Calvary intervenes and restores spiritual life to all!
Romans 5:18 “Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.”
Therefore, a person now only dies spiritually when they personally choose to sin. Physical death, meanwhile, remains the inherited consequence of Adam’s sin, because we - “in the flesh” - have not yet been redeemed (Romans 7:14–25). In short, physical death is inherited from Adam, but spiritual death results only from each individual’s own free choice to sin, not from Adam’s guilt.
