Sorry, but, so what? You reject the whole of Strong's because of the translation of a single word and turn instead to Google? I don't get it.
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oatmeal
Well-known member
Romans 10:9 is plain as day. If you meet the two conditions, you are saved. Or as it is called in other places, born again of incorruptible seed, received the gift of eternal life, etc.
John 3:
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
We must ask ourselves, "did Jesus Christ exhibit those qualities?" Yes, of course, he did.
As followers of the lord Jesus Christ, we will likewise exhibit those qualities to the degree and proportion that we follow Jesus Christ by being spiritually minded.
John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
We, as believers, having receive the gift of holy spirit are capable of doing the same works. But do we? and how much do we?
Romans 8:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
We are exhorted to be spiritually minded.
One way we can be spiritually minded is by acknowledging that we have received that gift of holy spirit which is the gift of eternal life.
Romans 6:
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Eternal life is spirit, not body and soul. Body and soul is the state of the man not born again of God's spirit. Referred to as the natural man. We are spiritual men, thus we should be spiritually minded.
I Corinthians 12:
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
The rest of chapter 12 as well as chapters 13 and14 continue that line of thinking and exhortation.
Galatians 3 tells us more
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 5:
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Our salvation is the work of God in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
We have that spirit in the inner man, we need to utilize it, just like Jesus Christ did.
We need to be using that gift of spirit to its full capacity
Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
When we are walking by the spirit, carnally minded Christians and natural men will wonder what we are doing, like the wind we pass by them and they have no clue.
But a spiritually minded Christian will recognize that we are walking by the spirit.
I Corinthians 2:
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Paul recognized that not everyone who is born again of God's spirit are spiritually minded.
I Corinthians 3:
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Even so, it is now.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Yes, that is one of the two conditions of Romans 10:9. Until both are done, the salvation is not received
I don't read Hebrew or Greek.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Believing that God raised Jesus from the dead is non negotiable. Romans 10:9. If that is a problem for many, oh well, No gift of salvation for them. Did you have a problem with that? After some thought, I did not have a problem with it. Anyone and everyone who meets those two conditions shall be saved, immediately. Now, that does make their minds perfect, but at least they can know they have eternal life. What they do after receiving that gift is up to them, but God requires that we be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of the mind. Romans 12:1-3...
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
So you exhibit those traits? Your thoughts seem to be that way. I don't know where they are or where they are going.
oatmeal
Well-known member
I suppose I so to some degree. Well, until I learned to pay attention, I had the same challenges. We have to rely on the Word of God to figure out what we are supposed to believe, not people's denominations or opinions. God is reliable and knows what He is talking about.
You got that right, except word is not a proper noun.
Those two conditions are loaded with meaning that imply other conditions as well.
In order to be saved one must believe the following things...
- God exists and is the Creator of all things and He is perfect, holy, and just.
- We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
- Because God loves us, He provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ.
- Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
- Jesus rose from the dead.
- If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.
oatmeal
Well-known member
I agree that it takes work, mental work to reach the point that we satisfy those two conditions.
Obviously, we must be able to understand the concepts of death and life. That death and life are extreme opposites. The concept of God raising someone from the dead, specifically Jesus Christ. We must understand the concept of lord vs a simple commoner or subordinate. It does take work and clarity of thought to satisfy those two conditions.
This is not directed at you, but on a tangential subject, we must distinguish between the mental work we must do to receive salvation from the work it took to pay for our salvation. We did not earn salvation, we simply received it. We could not earn the gift that we received. Although salvation was available before Jesus Christ's finished works, the salvation Jesus Christ paid for is eternal. Old Testament believers could lose their salvation, they had to be faithful to the end. There is a passage that in the OT, applicable in pre grace, that states that God judges a person on what he is doing now. If an evil person repents and now is obeying God, he is assessed on his believing now. If a believer turns away from God, and begins to work against God, God judges him on his present evil disposition. This is not the case with the present day gift of salvation. All our sins were prepaid for. If we sin we do not lose eternal life. however, rewards are earned by our good works. If we are not doing good works, we are not earning eternal or everlasting rewards. We must clearly distinguish between the gift of salvation and the works we do to earn eternal rewards.
Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Well, using the term "work" is going to cause confusion in Christian circles but suffice it to say that you have to have the concepts correct, not just the words. It is precisely this issue that will find a lot of Calvinists and Catholics in big trouble on judgement day.
Death is a separation. When you (i.e. your soul/spirit) separates from your body, this is physical death. When you are separated from God, this is spiritual death.
Jesus Christ died both physically and spiritually.
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
Not sure what you meant here but Lordship salvation is heresy.
My point is that there is more than two conditions. The two things listed in Romans 10 are generalities spoken to believers who understood the context in which they were said, namely Christian doctrine.
Even the salvation that was available prior to the cross was only possible because God had the cross in view and the cross itself did not undo the requirement of those people who were saved under the law to remain true to the law and to obey it.
Many New Testament believers could as well. It is only the members of the Body of Christ who cannot lose their salvation. The converts of Peter, James and John (i.e. "the circumcision") (See Galatians 2:9) could lose their salvation if they did not continue in the faith.
Ezekiel 18, perhaps?
True except that the distinguishing characteristic isn't Old Testament vs. New Testament but Paul vs. EVERY other biblical author. Paul is THE (singular) apostle to the Body of Christ. The converts of Jesus and the Twelve and James and Jude, et al were saved under the dispensation of law and were (are) Kingdom believers and could lose their salvation if they chose to walk away.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
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oatmeal
Well-known member
Well, using the term "work" is going to cause confusion in Christian circles but suffice it to say that you have to have the concepts correct, not just the words. It is precisely this issue that will find a lot of Calvinists and Catholics in big trouble on judgement day.
Death is a separation. When you (i.e. your soul/spirit) separates from your body, this is physical death. When you are separated from God, this is spiritual death.
Jesus Christ died both physically and spiritually.
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
Not sure what you meant here but Lordship salvation is heresy.
My point is that there is more than two conditions. The two things listed in Romans 10 are generalities spoken to believers who understood the context in which they were said, namely Christian doctrine.
Even the salvation that was available prior to the cross was only possible because God had the cross in view and the cross itself did not undo the requirement of those people who were saved under the law to remain true to the law and to obey it.
Salvation is the gift of eternal life. If it could be lost then we have two major problems, if not more.
1. Eternal life is not eternal, but very temporary
2. If we could lose salvation, then Jesus did not die for all our sins.
Ezekiel 18, perhaps?
True except that the distinguishing characteristic isn't Old Testament vs. New Testament but Paul vs. EVERY other biblical author. Paul is THE (singular) apostle to the Body of Christ. The converts of Jesus and the Twelve and James and Jude, et al were saved under the dispensation of law and were (are) Kingdom believers and could lose their salvation if they chose to walk away.
Yes, death is a separation, it is a separation from life. If the dead are not dead, then there a millions of people who have been buried alive. Death is the absence of life.
Jesus Christ, like Adam and Eve, lost both spirit and soul in their deaths
God did not forsake Jesus Christ, that passage is very badly translated. There is no viable reason for God to forsake Jesus Christ for Jesus Christ always did the Father's will and was doing his Father's will when he was suffering and near death, up to and including his death.
Jesus Christ finished the first part of his earthy ministry which paid for our redemption and salvation. However, Jesus Christ after God raised him from the dead, did and does have much more to do. Even after his being taken up to heaven, he still has responsibilities to fulfill
I have no idea that Lordship salvation means. Jesus as lord died for us. He paid the price acting as the designated lamb of God.
Romans 10:9 state only two conditions to receive salvation. If you want to do more, it gains you nothing.
Romans 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Not only do we receive salvation we also believe unto righteousness,
II Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
We have the righteousness of God as the result of us receiving the gift of salvation
Yes, God certainly had the view of the accomplishments of Jesus Christ in mind.
This is announced the first time when God spoke to the serpent, (our enemy, the Devil, Satan, false accuser of the brethren, etc.) back in Genesis
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Is Paul the only apostle to the Gentiles? Do you a scriptural reference that states that?
The salvation that the Judeans received is not subject to loss by not continuing "in the faith".
For precisely the same two reasons I stated above.
"
Salvation is the gift of eternal life. If it could be lost then we have two major problems, if not more.
1. Eternal life is not eternal, but very temporary
2. If we could lose salvation, then Jesus did not die for all our sins."
It is impossible to renew them to repentance, You cannot get born again again, once you born again of incorruptible seed. Ie, the gift of eternal life, you cannot get more eternal life because eternal life is already eternal. You cannot add to eternal, except to earn eternal or everlasting rewards for faithfulness to do God's word.
Of course, as we discover errors in our lives we can repent of those sins. Repent referring to a change of heart to recognize our error and resolve not to repeat them not because of fear of consequences, but because we chose to love God above all else by keeping His word.
I John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
We must recognize that we must learn God's word and continue to learn more so that we can keep the word in us and obey it.
I John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
I John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Death is a separation. When you (i.e. your soul/spirit) separates from your body, this is physical death. When you are separated from God, this is spiritual death.
Jesus Christ died both physically and spiritually.
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
Not sure what you meant here but Lordship salvation is heresy.
My point is that there is more than two conditions. The two things listed in Romans 10 are generalities spoken to believers who understood the context in which they were said, namely Christian doctrine.
Even the salvation that was available prior to the cross was only possible because God had the cross in view and the cross itself did not undo the requirement of those people who were saved under the law to remain true to the law and to obey it.
Salvation is the gift of eternal life. If it could be lost then we have two major problems, if not more.
1. Eternal life is not eternal, but very temporary
2. If we could lose salvation, then Jesus did not die for all our sins.
Ezekiel 18, perhaps?
True except that the distinguishing characteristic isn't Old Testament vs. New Testament but Paul vs. EVERY other biblical author. Paul is THE (singular) apostle to the Body of Christ. The converts of Jesus and the Twelve and James and Jude, et al were saved under the dispensation of law and were (are) Kingdom believers and could lose their salvation if they chose to walk away.
Well if the word, "work", causes confusion, then they need to simply read what I have written and digest it for a time. If you can understand, so can anyone else who wants to grow beyond milk.
Yes, death is a separation, it is a separation from life. If the dead are not dead, then there a millions of people who have been buried alive. Death is the absence of life.
Jesus Christ, like Adam and Eve, lost both spirit and soul in their deaths
God did not forsake Jesus Christ, that passage is very badly translated. There is no viable reason for God to forsake Jesus Christ for Jesus Christ always did the Father's will and was doing his Father's will when he was suffering and near death, up to and including his death.
Jesus Christ finished the first part of his earthy ministry which paid for our redemption and salvation. However, Jesus Christ after God raised him from the dead, did and does have much more to do. Even after his being taken up to heaven, he still has responsibilities to fulfill
I have no idea that Lordship salvation means. Jesus as lord died for us. He paid the price acting as the designated lamb of God.
Romans 10:9 state only two conditions to receive salvation. If you want to do more, it gains you nothing.
Romans 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Not only do we receive salvation we also believe unto righteousness,
II Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
We have the righteousness of God as the result of us receiving the gift of salvation
Yes, God certainly had the view of the accomplishments of Jesus Christ in mind.
This is announced the first time when God spoke to the serpent, (our enemy, the Devil, Satan, false accuser of the brethren, etc.) back in Genesis
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Yes, that is it.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Is Paul the only apostle to the Gentiles? Do you a scriptural reference that states that?
The salvation that the Judeans received is not subject to loss by not continuing "in the faith".
For precisely the same two reasons I stated above.
"
Salvation is the gift of eternal life. If it could be lost then we have two major problems, if not more.
1. Eternal life is not eternal, but very temporary
2. If we could lose salvation, then Jesus did not die for all our sins."
It is impossible to renew them to repentance, You cannot get born again again, once you born again of incorruptible seed. Ie, the gift of eternal life, you cannot get more eternal life because eternal life is already eternal. You cannot add to eternal, except to earn eternal or everlasting rewards for faithfulness to do God's word.
Of course, as we discover errors in our lives we can repent of those sins. Repent referring to a change of heart to recognize our error and resolve not to repeat them not because of fear of consequences, but because we chose to love God above all else by keeping His word.
I John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
We must recognize that we must learn God's word and continue to learn more so that we can keep the word in us and obey it.
I John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
I John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
This is why Hebrews authorship is placed on Paul by perverts of scripture. The author could not be more clear on the subject.
No sir! It is not your audience's responsibility to not be confused by your sloppy use of language but rather your responsibility to communicate your message in a manner than can be received by your audience.
You can use whatever terminology you desire but if people are confused by your stubborn use of confusing language then that's on you, not them.
No, that would be what is called a tautology. This is no more meaningful than say that the lights aren't shining because they have no power. Well, no duh, Captain obvious!
Again, this is a tautology. Darkness is the absence of light. No kidding!
Heresy!
Neither of them lost their soul. What are you even talking about? They are their soul. You are your soul. Your soul is that part of you that is eternal and will never cease to exist. When your soul (i.e. YOU) are separated from your physical body then you have physically died. When you are separated from God (who is Life (capital L)) you are spiritually dead.
It is almost perfectly translated! It states precisely what the King James and nearly every English language translation says. Not only that but we have it in both Greek and Hebrew because it is the first verse of Psalms 22 which also, very clearly says in Hebrew....
Hebrew (Psalm 22:1)
Hebrew Text:
This is a very direct and emotionally raw expression. The Hebrew verb azavtani (עזבתני) comes from azav, meaning to abandon, forsake, or leave.
Greek (Matthew 27:46, transliterated Aramaic)
The Gospel of Mark renders it slightly differently:
This reflects a more Galilean pronunciation (Eloi instead of Eli).
"Sabachthani" is the Aramaic equivalent of the Hebrew azavtani, meaning "You have forsaken me."
Accuracy of Translation
- The Greek New Testament preserves the Aramaic cry that Jesus likely spoke aloud, which powerfully links back to Psalm 22 in Hebrew.
- The English translation matches very well: “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” is a faithful rendering of both the Hebrew and the Aramaic-Greek.
In short, don't say things off the top of your head about things you know nothing about. You aren't talking to idiots who don't have the time to spend the 30 seconds it takes to look it up and find out that your making things up as you go.
No viable reason? It only bought our salvation, that's all! Jesus endured the separation we deserved so we wouldn’t have to. He was as dead as any man, for three full days, and He spent that time in the place of the righteous dead; the place He Himself called Paradise and what Scripture elsewhere calls "Abraham’s Bosom".
That’s not a minor footnote. That’s the Gospel itself, Oatmeal!
Not in regard to our salvation.
Lordship salvation is the belief that true faith in Christ must include a willingness to submit to His authority as Lord, not just trust Him as Savior. In other words, its a doctrine that says you have to stop sinning and start doing good deeds. It's the gospel of circumcision mix with the gospel of uncircumcision (See Galatians 2:6-9).
This seems weirdly stated as though the image of the lamb was primary.
Jesus wasn't taking the place of an animal sacrifice, the animals sacrifices were done in place of Christ. Jesus died, Oatmeal. He was dead. Dead for three full days. It wasn't an act where God was just going through the motions of some sort of divine ritual. It was as real as it gets.
You cannot be saved unless you acknowledge that God exist.
That is not stated in Romans 9.
Nor is it stated that you must acknowledge the need for being saved in the first place, which means that you acknowledge that you've sinned against God and deserve to be judged and punished.
All of which PRESUPPOSES other core doctrines. Doctrines that are implied without being stated outright (which is what it means to presuppose something).
No one, and I mean not one single living human being understood that this is what God was saying at the time, nor did anyone understand that it what was being intimated even after Moses wrote those words.
In other words, no one was saved by faith in Christ until AFTER Christ died on the cross.
I don't have time to teach you the entire New Testament, Oatmeal.
We cannot lose our salvation and so your last point doesn't hold water. You're conflating the body of Christ with Israel. We are not Israel. We are not saved by the same gospel that saved Peter, James and John and their converts.
Ever wonder why all the proof texts for one side of this debate are all written by Paul and all the proof texts for the other side of the debate are written by Peter, James and John (and the gospels)? If you think that's a coincidence, you're quite wrong.
The same is true for a whole list of debated doctrines...
- Can you lose your salvation?
- Must we tithe?
- Should we follow the Ten Commandments?
- Is water baptism required for salvation?
- Are we saved by grace alone or are good works required?
- Should we observe the Sabbath(s)?
- Should Christian expect to experience physical miracles?
- Etc.
This is called rationalization. The passage is teaching that you can lose your salvation. The key is not to force it to say something other than that but to understand that you're reading someone else's mail. You are not a Hebrew and even if you were one ethnically, you wouldn't be one spiritually because Israel's covenant was cut off (See Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18) and God turned instead to the Gentiles through Paul. Now there is no Jew or Gentile. There was but there is no longer and the author of Hebrews was writing to members of believing Israel (a.k.a. believing Hebrews) and was speaking in the context of their covenant with God, which required continued obedience to the law.
This is Lordship salvation doctrine and will only succeed in hobbling your spiritual walk. You cannot be better than you are because you are perfect in Him. Trying harder to not sin is to feed the very thing that produces the sin, namely your flesh. To be disappointed in yourself is to have trusted in your flesh. You are santified by the exact same thing that saved you. As you were saved, so walk! (Colossians 2:6).
Trust and obey, the performance-based way,
To exhaust every effort, yet still go astray.
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